Some thoughts on those missiles

[aceface]

I have some problems that I would like to address that don't seem to be that important to many people when it comes to missiles.

1. Seriously, there is nobody with proper knowledge of the game that uses damage pulse missiles over damage beam missiles when it comes to pvp. Maybe RP, but I don't do that stuff. I do not think that damage beam missiles need to be nerfed.

Solution: Just make the damage pulse missiles go as fast as the swarmers.

2. And cannon missiles combo. This is something I really think should be buffed. Right now they are just stupid missiles that would never be used by a player with knowledge over the damage beam missiles combo.

Solution: Make those things go as fast as the old damage beam missiles went to actually make them hit stuff.



Now what do you think?

 

[Thalanor]

You are definitely not the only one who wants missile/cannon "plasma guns" (the role cannon/explosive sucks at)!
You really can't be expected to hit something at a projectile speed only 2x that of a ship.

 

[aceface]

right now i am applying these changes to the configs to test how they are.

 

[Jay_do]

Can you please remove GD from your posts title. It is completely unneeded and offensive to some.

 

[aceface]

Can you please remove GD from your posts title. It is completely unneeded and offensive to some.

ok sorry.

 

[Jay_do]

ok sorry.

Thank you. I appreciate it.

 

[KiloZulu]

PVP is its own animal, and typically devolves into min/maxing everything in the game. That only leaves room for one or two weapons. See any MMORPG for examples. I do agree that the various weapon systems need to be modified to make them more relevant, but it's also important that they retain characteristics to set them apart. Some weapons may actually exist to provide RP opportunities. The hulk missile may not be a great PVP alternative, but that doesn't make it a bad weapon. My Romulan warbird wouldn't be the same without its hulk missile.

 

[CyberTao]

What if I told you that I used Missile/Cannon for my drones and small turrets?

Fast reload weapons require very little power storage compared to any other, makes them good for smaller ships and such. They are also good for spitting out masses of missile enbulk, so screw your PD as well (They aren't clustered like Missile/Missile either).

In my personal opinion, I think it would be better to nerf Missile/Beam then buff 3-4 other weapons, cause it aint just Missile/Pulse that is outshined by those.

 

[Rohen]

Well the Missile/Pulse combination is excellent against Stations and Planets. Massive damage over a large area.
Fired from a relative close distance they have a chance against PD, especially if you fire a heatseaker swarm to occupy the attention of the pd first.
The longer reload of the Missile/Pulse combo is what really makes this combo bad.
Not only do you fire missiles that are slower than the beam combo, you also need longer to fire the next missile.

 

[FullMetalFox]

TBH, Missile+Pulse is bloody useless.

<Pulse>
            <Damage style="buff" linear="true" value="2"/>
            <Reload style="nerf" inverse="true" value="7" />
            <Distance style="skip" />
            <BlastRadius style="buff" value="3" />
            <Speed style="nerf" value="3" />
            <Split style="skip" />
            <Mode style="set" value="2" /><!-- Smart Missile -->
            <PowerConsumption style="nerf" inverse="true" linear="true" vlue="2"/>
</Pulse>

A Missile+Pulse with 20 blocks, buff value 2 means +200% damage, so 20(blocks)x75(base missile damage)+200%(damage buff) = 4500 damage. Reload nerf 7 means 8 times the reload time, 8x15=120 seconds. 4500(damage)/120(reload)/20(blocks) = 1,875 DPS per Block on Missile+Pulse.
Seems about right (ignore the speed, ive got 150ms speed on my test server)

So it deals the same damage as Missile+Beam per volly, but has a much longer reload, resulting in a really low DPS. And then there is the extremly slow speed of the missiles themselfs, its only redeeming quality is the 400% blast radius. Literally only good use ive found for these so far is planet scrubbing.

 

[aceface]

What if I told you that I used Missile/Cannon for my drones and small turrets?

Fast reload weapons require very little power storage compared to any other, makes them good for smaller ships and such. They are also good for spitting out masses of missile enbulk, so screw your PD as well (They aren't clustered like Missile/Missile either).

In my personal opinion, I think it would be better to nerf Missile/Beam then buff 3-4 other weapons, cause it aint just Missile/Pulse that is outshined by those.

divi up those weapon blocks into 3 separate ones, replace the cannon computer with a damage beam (0% support), you have more or less what you had before but with lock on.
[DOUBLEPOST=1428592619,1428592585][/DOUBLEPOST]

TBH, Missile+Pulse is bloody useless.

<Pulse>
            <Damage style="buff" linear="true" value="2"/>
            <Reload style="nerf" inverse="true" value="7" />
            <Distance style="skip" />
            <BlastRadius style="buff" value="3" />
            <Speed style="nerf" value="3" />
            <Split style="skip" />
            <Mode style="set" value="2" /><!-- Smart Missile -->
            <PowerConsumption style="nerf" inverse="true" linear="true" vlue="2"/>
</Pulse>

A Missile+Pulse with 20 blocks, buff value 2 means +200% damage, so 20(blocks)x75(base missile damage)+200%(damage buff) = 4500 damage. Reload nerf 7 means 8 times the reload time, 8x15=120 seconds. 4500(damage)/120(reload)/20(blocks) = 1,875 DPS per Block on Missile+Pulse.
Seems about right (ignore the speed, ive got 150ms speed on my test server)

So it deals the same damage as Missile+Beam per volly, but has a much longer reload, resulting in a really low DPS. And then there is the extremly slow speed of the missiles themselfs, its only redeeming quality is the 400% blast radius. Literally only good use ive found for these so far is planet scrubbing.

exactly! i wanted to say this but couldn't be bothered, really they are useless.

 

[CyberTao]

divi up those weapon blocks into 3 separate ones, replace the cannon computer with a damage beam (0% support), you have more or less what you had before but with lock on.

In terms of power costs? Not even close, unbugged it would cost something like 60% more power overall due to multiple outputs (a small turret does not have room to toy around with extra computers). Missiles with slaves are bugged though atm, though I suspect you are on EE, which removed that additional power increase completely anyways (I don't like EE).

Rapid fires are also 1 missile every 2.5-3 seconds, doing it like what you said gives me 3 missiles every 15 seconds, which is less in terms of output. So not only is it less missile and more upfront power costs, it also clusters the missiles by firing them all at once, making them easier to shoot down with a PD spray.

Don't say no one uses them, then try to convert the ones who do use them when you learn about them. I use Lockons where I want to use lockons, I don't min/max/exploit to get the ultimate alpha. I don't even believe in Alpha, which is why I like Missile/Cannon.

A speed increase for dumbfires in general would be nice though I suppose (you seem to have completely ignored Missile/-).

 

[FullMetalFox]

In terms of power costs? Not even close, unbugged it would cost something like 60% more power overall due to multiple outputs (a small turret does not have room to toy around with extra computers).

Just tested that on SP (default) and a Server with blockbehaviour changes, doesnt matter if i have 1 or 2 groups (outputs), total combined energy cost was the same.

Rapid fires are also 1 missile every 2.5-3 seconds, doing it like what you said gives me 3 missiles every 15 seconds, which is less in terms of output. So not only is it less missile and more upfront power costs, it also clusters the missiles by firing them all at once, making them easier to shoot down with a PD spray.

TBH, so far ive seen Anti Missile Systems rather struggle with a shitton of missiles at once than with "rapid fire", my guess is that the missing rockets still get tracked by the AMS turrets even after they missed their target, so while a miss is lost damage, it still keeps the AMS occupied, that is a strong point. Question is which of both would be more efficient in the end.

I don't min/max/exploit to get the ultimate alpha. I don't even believe in Alpha, which is why I like Missile/Cannon.

Alpha damage is a well known and quiet usefull fact, so there is nothing to believe or not to believe about it, its simply logic. Before you go blow a fuse, im not saying you should use Alpha setups, i just find the choice of the word "believe" a bit strange.

A speed increase for dumbfires in general would be nice though I suppose (you seem to have completely ignored Missile/-).

I think a whole revamp of all weapon systems and combinations is needed, but speed increase for Rockets would be a start.

 

[CyberTao]

Just tested that on SP (default) and a Server with blockbehaviour changes, doesnt matter if i have 1 or 2 groups (outputs), total combined energy cost was the same.

That is due to a bug (hence I said unbugged). Any missile with a slave is ignoring additional output power modifiers, but standard missiles and any other weapon is not. For each output after the first, every group is suppose to gain a +10% power modifer (3 groups +20% because it's 2 groups past 1, roughly %60 total I estimated). The power nerf per output is there to oppress waffleboards, which missiles actually need the most imho, and since it Missile/- still maintains the nerf and it's there in the configs (additionalpowerConsumption), I can only assume it's some weird bug.
.

Before you go blow a fuse, im not saying you should use Alpha setups, i just find the choice of the word "believe" a bit strange.

I don't believe in alpha like I don't believe in God. I acknowledge that both are worshiped by people, but I find both to be a waste of my time. High alpha demands high power storage, which I rather use for shields. A ship with high shields and sustained DPS has an advantage over a ship that has the same DPS, but traded some shields for alpha, provided the shields hold through the first volley. I also consider it not as fun because battles tend to go a lot quicker.

 

[aceface]

In terms of power costs? Not even close, unbugged it would cost something like 60% more power overall due to multiple outputs (a small turret does not have room to toy around with extra computers). Missiles with slaves are bugged though atm, though I suspect you are on EE, which removed that additional power increase completely anyways (I don't like EE).

Rapid fires are also 1 missile every 2.5-3 seconds, doing it like what you said gives me 3 missiles every 15 seconds, which is less in terms of output. So not only is it less missile and more upfront power costs, it also clusters the missiles by firing them all at once, making them easier to shoot down with a PD spray.

Don't say no one uses them, then try to convert the ones who do use them when you learn about them. I use Lockons where I want to use lockons, I don't min/max/exploit to get the ultimate alpha. I don't even believe in Alpha, which is why I like Missile/Cannon.

A speed increase for dumbfires in general would be nice though I suppose (you seem to have completely ignored Missile/-).

Got the numbers wrong. I mean 5 individual missiles, and not from the same computer, but DIFFERENT computers. By doing this, you essentially get 15/5= 3 esential reload (1 missile every 3 seconds) sec reload, the reload, same power requirements and damage as a similar sized missile cannon combo, the only difference is that you get the ability to lock on, thus 50% of your shots wont miss. ai will also use all the computers so dont worry for hotbar being cluttered up.

 

[FullMetalFox]

That is due to a bug (hence I said unbugged).

Alright, that explains it as i tested it with slaved ones.

I don't believe in alpha like I don't believe in God. I acknowledge that both are worshiped by people, but I find both to be a waste of my time. High alpha demands high power storage, which I rather use for shields. A ship with high shields and sustained DPS has an advantage over a ship that has the same DPS, but traded some shields for alpha, provided the shields hold through the first volley. I also consider it not as fun because battles tend to go a lot quicker.

Thats exactly why i find that word choice strange, god is some abstract concept with no proof or what so ever, its in itself just a believe.
Alpha damage is a logical and mathematically proofable tactic, so its a fact. If you want to use that fact or not is your choice, but saying you dont believe in it is like denying its existance.
Well made alpha setup ships have some more advantage and disadvantages then just that, but that goes far into your own tactics, the strengh and numbers of your enemy, optimization and the overall composition of the battle.

On an equal one vs one battle, if the none alpha ship survives the alpha strike, then yes the none alpha ship will propably win.
On one vs multiple smaller ships, an alpha ship has most likely a higher chance to win as its alpha strikes can quickly take out targets, and a disabled/destroyed target is one that cant deal damage to your shields anymore.

 

[CyberTao]

Got the numbers wrong. I mean 5 individual missiles, and not from the same computer, but DIFFERENT computers. By doing this, you essentially get 15/5= 3 esential reload (1 missile every 3 seconds) sec reload, the reload, same power requirements and damage as a similar sized missile cannon combo, the only difference is that you get the ability to lock on, thus 50% of your shots wont miss. ai will also use all the computers so dont worry for hotbar being cluttered up.

The thing is, I said I use Missile/Cannon on my small turrets. Those 5 extra sets of computers (10) is more than the number of shield rechargers I tend to have on them. Hell, my drone is 67 blocks total, it just doesn't have the space for all those computers, It's not an option in my opinion.

I dunno, but if you factor in the radius size compared to the reload and damage, Missile/Cannon has always had an appeal to me. Missile/Beam is 3 times the damage, but no change in radius, Missile/Cannon is 1/6th the damage, but only 1/3rd the radius of default. Given that a Missile/Cannon will fire somewhere around 18 times before a Missile/Beam can reload, you're looking at potentially 6 times the blocks destroyed if all of them hit (with a single output), without using Explosive effect (which actually buffs Rapid weapons more). Pair it with a few Stop turrets and if your target is big enough, Missile/Cannon can do some real damage if you let it.

Old /beam speeds seem a tad OP to me from this angle, especially if they are player manned (Cause AI can't be trusted to aim).

Spoiler: Left-field

If you want to use that fact or not is your choice, but saying you dont believe in it is like denying its existance.

That's generally what I do when I try to build. I dunno, but when the most common weapon discussion is about how much Dakka you can spit out at once, or how quickly your ship can obliterate the test target. It may just be me, but I grew tired of 'alpha' before I even got to try it. Said could be said for missile/beam rave that everyone seems to have, and uberturrets on homebases that can 1 shot battleships from sectors away. It doesn't sound fun, so I reject it :d I'm more of a tanker/support type anyways, so I was an oddball to start with.

 

[FullMetalFox]

That's generally what I do when I try to build. I dunno, but when the most common weapon discussion is about how much Dakka you can spit out at once, or how quickly your ship can obliterate the test target. It may just be me, but I grew tired of 'alpha' before I even got to try it. Said could be said for missile/beam rave that everyone seems to have, and uberturrets on homebases that can 1 shot battleships from sectors away. It doesn't sound fun, so I reject it :d I'm more of a tanker/support type anyways, so I was an oddball to start with.

Like i said, just found the word choice strange. Sad thing is, if the balance sucks as is does right now (well, alpha stage), some stuff sticks out as just being the most efficient/broken/overpowered, like the darn doomcubes, or missile/beam just being the currently best weapons, insane range, destroys more than 1 block, can be turned into insane alpha strikes, just doesnt have enough disadvantages compared to other weapons. And in PVP that sadly nearly forces players to use those too, as otherwise they would be at a disadvantage. Like i said, all weapon systems need a major revamp. Uberturrets on Homebases, and Homebases themselfs are a joke anyways, no reason to include them in PVP what so ever unles some Faction goes retarded and keeps fighting until their faction points go negative.

But hey, what you do, how you build your ships, how you want to fight, thats all up to you as long as you have fun, and that is even one of the beautiful things about sandbox games. There is only hoping that future balance changes will make, as you call it, "oddball" play styles more viable in multiplayer.

 

[CyberTao]

like the darn doomcubes

Doomcubes are actually a non-problem now. The only system they benefit from is turning speeds, and have a better volume-to-surface-area (less hull), the biggest complaint is just that they are 'ugly', everything else is normally outdated thoughts or people huffed up about turn rates (which should be fixed with Thrust revamp system). They actually did a good job nerfing doomcubes, even if it lead to people complaining about simple linear systems.

 

[FullMetalFox]

Actually turnspeed can be pretty important. But they still have another advantage, most ships have some angles on which its easier for a weapon to reach the core, say on the classic long drawn ships its the sides, top and bottom, on a doom cube, all 6 side have an equal thickness.
So yes while they are pretty nerfed already, they are still the best possible ships, and i hope that changes with the Thruster Revamp and HP System.