Extending Ship Shields to Turrets- A Solution

[FlyingDebris]

So, I've heard lots of people talking about how weak PD is if even a single missile gets through the screen. Their usual solution is to extend the ship's shields over the turrets, but then you have people building massive turrets with 0 shields connected to a ship that's 100% shields and it just ends in discussions about how easily abusable that system would be.

To fix this, I propose a different system entirely. Have the shields extend to the turret, but have them reduced by way of mass. For example,

Ship Mass divided by Turret Mass=% Shields Extended

If %ShieldsExtended>100, then TurretShield=0+ShieldCap (resets the amount of shields to that which the turret itself generates, to prevent people from making a tiny ship connected to a massive turret, abusing the system.)

The ship's shields would be extended to the turret on a percentage basis, so the closer the turret is to 1:1 the mass of the ship, the higher percentage of shields it gets. That said, if the turret's mass is higher than the ship's mass, the turret loses the bonus and its shielding would function entirely within the turret's own capacity.

Example:

Ship has 100 mass

Turret has 10 mass and 100 shields

Ship has 1000 shields

Turret would recieve 100 shields from the ship's shield extension, added to the 100 that the turret generates under its own power.

EDIT- Forgot to mention this half of the idea...

Any damage done to the turret's shields will also be transferred over to the ship's shields. So, a 100 damage shot to the turret's shield, assuming it is extended, will deal 100 damage to the ship's shields as well.

 

[chetyre]

- lets say you have a ship with 1M shield
- now add 2 turrets that are the size of the ship
- now your ship have 3M shield

the other way would be to substract ship's shield and add it to turrets in the same way
Ship Mass divided by Turret Mass=% Shields Added to turret and removed from ship

I personally think turrets are good for now, they don't need shield update of anything

 

[FlyingDebris]

- lets say you have a ship with 1M shield
- now add 2 turrets that are the size of the ship
- now your ship have 3M shield

the other way would be to substract ship's shield and add it to turrets in the same way
Ship Mass divided by Turret Mass=% Shields Added to turret and removed from ship

I personally think turrets are good for now, they don't need shield update of anything

The ship would still have 1M shields, and any damage done to the turrets would also be done to the ship's shields as well. As for the amount of shields in a ship with two turrets of equal size to it, that is already possible with the current system. As for your counter-proposal, this would just cause people to stop using turrets because they want the maximum amount of shields possible on their ships, and turrets more often than not get blown off in combat far too quickly.

 

[Monchoman45]

You won't actually solve much with this. Let's take the example of a ship with 100k mass, 100m shields and 1m regen, because those are easy numbers.

Turrets don't share mothership shields because the hard barrier for even scratching our example ship is 1m dps. 1m dps is a lot; cannons give you 10 dps so this would be 100k cannons. That's 10k mass minimum just to break even. You can halve that with ion effect, but then you're useless against the hull. You have to power all those guns too, and that's not cheap - so ships less than 10k mass are basically useless in damaging our example ship, and that's a problem.

So we don't do that. The current system basically takes out power considerations for the turret; short of that, it's basically its own ship. That lets you get a really nice gun:mass ratio - way more than a real ship - but it basically just comes down to the turret's mass vs. the attacking ship's mass. This is a lot more fair, although AI stupidity generally results in player victories.

The problem with your idea is that big ships are really big, and small ships are really small.

Say our example ship has a 5 mass AMS turret. That's a pretty big AMS turret for a lot of people, but 1 is a little low and 10 is too high, and I like easy numbers, so we're using 5. Our example ship has 100k mass (1m blocks), 100m shields, and 1m regen. Under your system, the turret inherits (5 / 100,000) * 100,000,000 = 5000 shields from the mothership. That's more than you can fit on a 5 mass turret, but it's still going to get 1 shot.

On the other hand, if I slap a giant 10k mass turret on our example ship, it would inherit 10,000 / 100,000 * 100,000,000 = 10m shields from the mothership. That's a lot, enough that I probably wouldn't put any shield caps on it and just fill it with guns. My favorite thing about this analogy is that, as already shown, this 10k mass turret - which is nearly all guns, no shields, no thrusters, no power - would have almost enough DPS to hold down another whole example ship and make it vulnerable to smaller ship weapons. Or, you know, blow up every fighter ever.

On the other hand, if I slap a 1000 mass turret on a 100 mass "mothership" with, say, 10k shields, even if the turret gets all 10k, you're still just looking at 10k shields on a 1000 mass turret. When your turrets are heavier than your "mothership", you're basically just flying the turret, and it really stops mattering.

So, probably not going to get anyone anywhere. Your AMS turrets are still going to get 1 shot, and your mega turrets would be invincible.

 

[Spartan-228]

I have actually been giving this subject some thought lately.

What I would like to see is something like this.
First you go into your ships systems menu, then you go to the turret docking point menu (you know the place you go to turn on all your turret AI at once). Here you have the option to choose how much shielding is extend to each turret. However you have to be careful because the shields you add to your turrets are subtract from your ships shields.

Edit. The same method I just described for the shields would work the same for shield re-charge for turrets.

 

[Monchoman45]

Here you have the option to choose how much shielding is extend to each turret. However you have to be careful because the shields you add to your turrets are subtract from your ships shields.

is the same as

the other way would be to substract ship's shield and add it to turrets in the same way
Ship Mass divided by Turret Mass=% Shields Added to turret and removed from ship

and therefore

this would just cause people to stop using turrets because they want the maximum amount of shields possible on their ships, and turrets more often than not get blown off in combat far too quickly.

 

[Spartan-228]

is the same as

and therefore

It's not the same. The amount of shields extended to your turrets, and what turrets the shields are extended to, is controlled by the player not by the mass of the turret.

 

[Monchoman45]

It's not the same. The amount of shields extended to your turrets, and what turrets the shields are extended to, is controlled by the player not by the mass of the turret.

I probably wouldn't extend any. Either my AMS turrets will get one shot or they'll be intact and the mothership will get cored; or, alternatively, I can give 10% of my shields to my megaturret and then I have an invincible ship with an invincible megaturret.

Not to mention that you really shouldn't be allowed invincible AMS turrets anyway. That would make you invulnerable to missiles, which would be pretty OP.

 

[Lord Daro]

So, I've heard lots of people talking about how weak PD is if even a single missile gets through the screen.

I would like to know how people come to this conclusion.
If i have just a hand full of relatively small point defence turrets against 100k missiles, i get the invested block count worth even if they only shoot down, lets say 1 out of 10. Otherwise my ship would have needed way more blocks to have the shields absorb those additional 100k points. Especially if it allready had pretty strong shields to begin with.

 

[FlyingDebris]

I would like to know how people come to this conclusion.
If i have just a hand full of relatively small point defence turrets against 100k missiles, i get the invested block count worth even if they only shoot down, lets say 1 out of 10. Otherwise my ship would have needed way more blocks to have the shields absorb those additional 100k points. Especially if it allready had pretty strong shields to begin with.

Someone firing off nukes at you, and your ship can take one or two of them. Well, a nuke lands on you, puts your shields at 50%. Your ship is fine, but the turrets you spent three years docking have all just been wiped out entirely.

 

[Spartan-228]

Someone firing off nukes at you, and your ship can take one or two of them. Well, a nuke lands on you, puts your shields at 50%. Your ship is fine, but the turrets you spent three years docking have all just been wiped out entirely.

You could try making shield door barrier. Set them however far away from your ship you want them. Some one fires a few nukes at you, turn on your shield screen and they detonate harmlessly way from your ship. However the shield screen will only take a few hits before you have more holes then shields.

 

[FlyingDebris]

You could try making shield door barrier. Set them however far away from your ship you want them. Some one fires a few nukes at you, turn on your shield screen and they detonate harmlessly way from your ship. However the shield screen will only take a few hits before you have more holes then shields.

There's also the minor detail that the blocks will keep the turrets from firing at the missile, effectively negating their purpose.

 

[Spartan-228]

There's also the minor detail that the blocks will keep the turrets from firing at the missile, effectively negating their purpose.

Turrets will currently shoot through anything in their way, including your own ship, so it shouldn't be a problem. And if it is you just keep the shield door barrier off until you need it.

 

[Monchoman45]

Turrets will currently shoot through anything in their way, including your own ship, so it shouldn't be a problem. And if it is you just keep the shield door barrier off until you need it.

Turrets don't shoot through the main ship. If they did, everyone would put their AMS turrets in the middle of the ship where missiles couldn't blow them up, so that they would be invincible. If they did, all of this shield stuff would be moot; just put all your turrets inside the ship. In order to blow them up, people would have to shoot through the whole mothership and all of its shields. You'd basically be...

Extending the mothership's shields to your turrets.

 

[Spartan-228]

Turrets don't shoot through the main ship. If they did, everyone would put their AMS turrets in the middle of the ship where missiles couldn't blow them up, so that they would be invincible. If they did, all of this shield stuff would be moot; just put all your turrets inside the ship. In order to blow them up, people would have to shoot through the whole mothership and all of its shields. You'd basically be...

Extending the mothership's shields to your turrets.

The reason no one puts the turrets inside their ship is because its a big pain in the ass, unless you turn off the docking restrictions. And then if something happens and your turret comes loos, that is a very bad day. I know I have experiment with it.

 

[CyberTao]

The reason no one puts the turrets inside their ship is because its a big pain in the ass, unless you turn off the docking restrictions. And then if something happens and your turret comes loos, that is a very bad day. I know I have experiment with it.

Last time I checked, they didn't fire through the main ship. They used to once upon a time, but it was removed. If you get in a turret and fire missiles at the mother ship, the missiles should fly off in a random direction (or at least they did last I checked). Never say people won't because it is a pain, because if it's effective, they will, just like they bother with docked reactors.

Also, a thought for you Debbie. When you fire a missile at a turret bank (a group of turrets), the missile will destroy all the turrets, because the game detects that the turrets are within range, yadda yadda yadda. Missiles will hit turrets and deal damage to both shields and hull separately from the main ship. If the shields are shared, wouldn't the damage dealt be multiplied? If the missile hits in the middle of 4 PD turrets with 100% sharing, and it hits all 4 and the main ship, the shields just got hit 5 times.

 

[Cablestinks]

The reason no one puts the turrets inside their ship is because its a big pain in the ass, unless you turn off the docking restrictions. And then if something happens and your turret comes loos, that is a very bad day. I know I have experiment with it.

I have as well, you can't shoot through the ship the turrets are docked to.

I am for the turrets are a part of the ship shielding. I would also love to see the ability to shift shield power to different sides, you know "all power to the forward shields" type of thing, to put 50 to front and 25 to the sides and 0 to rear would be a grand thing.

 

[Knack]

Why not introduce a block similar to the turret enhancer, a shield transfer block, slaved to the turret docking module. Every block transfers 1100 shieldcap and 55 regen to the docked ship.

Example:
Ships has 2200 shield and 110 regen, one shield transfer block slaved to the turret.
Now the ships has 1100 shield and 55 regen, and the turret has also 1100 shield and 55 regen.

Easier to use and less lag then a shieldsupply-beam. (and i think it isn't working anyway atm)

Turret down, the shield remmains on the ship.

You can choose how much shield you want to transfer to your turret, more transfer blocks - more shield. Simple and fair.

 

[whooplaah]

In another thread it has been suggested that a Power Computer and Shield Computer be introduced. This was in regards to expanding astronaut mode into boarding and sabotauge, and specializing shields against types of weapons. Read about that here: http://starmadedock.net/threads/shield-features.6394/#post-91738

I bring this up so that I can make the following suggestion:

If shield capacity and regen were linked to a shield computer, that would allow a ship to share portions of its shield to docked entities. For instance, I have a main system that is 1 computer + 1000 capacitors + 1000 regens, then I have three systems that are 1 computer + 500 capacitor + 500 regen. The weight/mass/area of these systems are part of the mother ship, but I can link the shield computer of any system to a turret dock to gift that system to the docked entity, or just link them all to the mothership's core and use them for the mothership.

Effectively this means that the shield capacity of the mother ship can be gifted to the turrets, but it must be designed as such rather than just being extended/shared as a % on a slider. The shields must be set up as individual systems of appropriate size ahead of time, but this takes up room that could be mothership shield.

This has the added advantage that once a turret is destroyed, that shield system can be concentrated on another entity by changing how they are linked. If a volley of missiles are incoming, a good copilot would concentrate shields to the turrets on the side about to be hit.

 

[Crimson-Artist]

has anyone thought of just tying the bonus shield amount given to turrets to the amount of turrets a ship has?

basically instead of adding new blocks or complex bubble shielding mechanics (its been said before that the game once had them but was totally broken) just have turrets get a percent of the parent ship's shields that gets divided by how many other turrets are connected.

say the bonus starts with 50% of the parent ship's shields and that bonus extends to 2 turrets. Add a third turret and the bonus drops to 35% for all 3 turrets. add another and the bonus drops even lower to 25% for the 4. Continuously adding more turrets just drops the bonus for all turrets till they all eventually get 0%.

Now mind you this is merely a bonus, this only adds to a turrets total shielding. when turrets have 0% bonus that only means that they've reverted back to their on board shield capacity.

This would make turret placement and type really matter while not totally penalizing players who choose to have a ton of turrets. It becomes a kind of meta game, do I have only 2 turrets with full shielding but limit my ability to take on multiple targets or have 10 and risk each one being blown up. It opens a whole new level of ship design.