Salvage overhaul to possibly fix mindless planet-eating (won't remove planet-mining)

[Megacrafter127]

So, in chat there has been a little discussion about how it may be possible to adjust salvaging mechanics to more or less prevent planeteating.

IMHO, planet-mining from space in and of itself isn't that bad, so making planets immune to salvaging is not an option. So here is my 2-step idea that may fix the issue, ofc everything should be configurable, if that is possible.

So here is the 1st step, that at first seems to have nothing to do with the problem at hand:

Allow salvage-beams as secondary systems on the standard weapons(cannon, beam, missile, pulse).

Depending on the ratio of primary-secondary, a part of the damage will be turned into salvage damage.(A configurable multiplier[maybe dependant on the primary?] will be applied to the salvage damage, to compensate for some blocks having more salavage-hp than damage-hp)

AOE effects of e.g. missile, pulse or explosive-effect will also be applied to the distribution of the salvage-damage(but not across multiple entities). Ofc the salvage-damage is applied before the normal damage. (damage to shields is calculated before everything else though)

Important configurable option(default: on): blocks will not be harvested by such weapons with salvage beams as secondary systems(unless the scrap-flag is set on the hit entity[also configurable exception]), but instead only ores will be extracted.​

(I am aware that the damage-beam:salvage-beam combo seems useless in that regard)​

So that was step one, it seems completely unrelated, but is required by step 2 to prevent it from completely ruining salvaging on planets, so without further ado, here comes step 2: {random rhyme}

Make blocks on planets irremovable by salvage-beams, ores of hit blocks may still be extracted though.(configurable[default: on])​

I think everyone can see why step 2 without step one would completely kill off salvaging on planets, as the salvage-beams cannot pass through blocks, whereas step 1 allows for AOE salvaging, even below the surface.

Opinions? Improvements?

 

[aceface]

1+

 

[FlyingDebris]

I like it. I like it a lot.

 

[zigyzigy]

Yea, this is a really great idea I think. The one issue is that some planet surfaces can be refined in the crafting process into useable materials ... I think correct me if I am wrong.

 

[CaptainTaz]

Yea, this is a really great idea I think. The one issue is that some planet surfaces can be refined in the crafting process into useable materials ... I think correct me if I am wrong.

I think the only things used are ice and possibly lava if the colored lava is implemented.

 

[MacThule]

Give planet cores a Piercing-defense+Punch through-defense effect, ranging from 0-100%, fully adjustable by server hosts.

Then if you want to strongly discourage planet-mining on a server and open the way for planets as hard points (along with god-knows what other side-effects) you edit the planet block armor rating on your server to 99% so each block has an effective HP of 2,500 (or 5,000 - not sure which way that works, exactly).

 

[Megacrafter127]

Then if you want to strongly discourage planet-mining on a server and open the way for planets as hard points (along with god-knows what other side-effects) you edit the planet block armor rating on your server to 99% so each block has an effective HP of 2,500 (or 5,000 - not sure which way that works, exactly).

You do know that salvage-damage is completely independant of the block's hp, so armor or punch/pierce defensive have no effect?

 

[MacThule]

No, I did not realize that, but it makes sense in retrospect when I think about stations I've salvaged

But that seems irrelevant - salvage beams could be made to observe the adjustable core effect. Seems an easier way to allow servers to either encourage or discourage planet harvesting than changing the way several weapon systems AND the salvage all work and work together. Just my opinion.

 

[Megacrafter127]

Seems an easier way to allow servers to either encourage or discourage planet harvesting

I wanted to discourage planet-eating, not planet-mining. Big difference between the 2.

 

[Valiant70]

GREAT. FREAKING. IDEA. No more planet-eating, and somewhat better resource balancing. (WHY do people complain when they don't get enough materials to build a titan in under an hour? Will SOMEONE explain this stupidity to me?)

Honestly, I don't know about the whole damage/salvage part, but just grabbing ores close to the surface instead of the whole kaboodle sounds like a better balance. This leaves room for landing on the planet and setting up some yet-to-be-added equipment to get the deeper ores out. We need better instrumentation though: something to tell the ore concentration on a particular planet and plate so you don't have to fly up and beam it to see if there's ore left. Right now that's not a problem because if there's no ore, there's no planet.

AOE salvaging could be done just as well by allowing piercing, punchthrough, and explosive effects on salvage beams.

 

[Megacrafter127]

AOE salvaging could be done just as well by allowing piercing, punchthrough, and explosive effects on salvage beams.

That isn't "full" AOE, just LOE (Line of Effect)

 

[Criss]

I think I would rather see planet based modules. But diversity is the spice of life. Perhaps planet based modules provide a constant flow of materials whereas space based mining will actually deplete a planet?

 

[SmilingDemon]

What about making planets invulnerable to salvage first.
Then invent some mining equiptment. A block that extracts an ore from the planet plate it is build on. with the usual draw backs of power consumption, storage to be linked, maybe setting it to the specific or to be extracted ore , adding a scanner system to determine the remaning ore
or improving the efficiency of the mining setup.
So you would have to build a mining structur on the planet surface (that could look cool, but hasnt to be) , and the Planet wouldnt look like a half eaten apple after mining.

 

[Megacrafter127]

So you would have to build a mining structur on the planet surface (that could look cool, but hasnt to be) , and the Planet wouldnt look like a half eaten apple after mining.

My goal was to still allow mining planets from space, without actually causing damage to them(since ore is simply a "rotation" of a rock-block, the rock may remain when the ore is extracted[and the orientation of the block is normalized])

 

[Valiant70]

If I recall, Calbiri doesn't care for mining from orbit, so something is very likely to change in that respect. This might be a step in the right direction.

 

[SmilingDemon]

Megacrafter127 .. ok .. i did not got that than. ... but the mining on planet solution might be more performance effective than hitting and calculating the outcome of 200(as example) mining beams with area effects or even pierce/punch effect

 

[Megacrafter127]

Megacrafter127 .. ok .. i did not got that than. ... but the mining on planet solution might be more performance effective than hitting and calculating the outcome of 200(as example) mining beams with area effects or even pierce/punch effect

Why is everyone on about punch/pierce effect on salvage beams, that was never part of the OP.

 

[SmilingDemon]

I have read your post and i have seen that you where only speaking about area effect. my point was that adding effects (what punch and pierce are ) wouldnt help either when it comes to performance.
I wasnt saying you did suggest that.

 

[whooplaah]

So the goal seems to be to get resources out of a planet without changing the way the planet looks.

Fundamentally, I disagree with this. That is not how reality works; to get coal and copper out of the earth we have to bust it up. The hole-ridden planet is the Starmade equivalent to pollution (which gives me an idea, see below).

What I would agree with is a way to quickly 'repair' the face of a planet by investing the correct terrain into it. This will let people create a broken planet (which has its own aesthetic appeal) while others can invest a bit of time into fixing a planet that was abused and then abandoned. Effectively, with the use of a Terra-form Block and 500k stone and dirt one can force a face of a planet to generate anew (but without resources this time).

I do like the idea of AOE and LOE salvage beams.

Pollution in Starmade:

Spoiler

As part of an expanded Astronaut mode (seen here: http://starmadedock.net/threads/starmade-as-an-astronaut.5086/page-1#post-90196), the more exposed the core of a planet is the more polluted it is. Polluted planets are more dangerous for astronauts and creatures and plants and require certain types of gear/armor to be traversed. Polluted planets can contain unique resources (such as toxins and acids used in traps) that make them a useful feature.

 

[Megacrafter127]

That is not how reality works; to get coal and copper out of the earth we have to bust it up. The hole-ridden planet is the Starmade equivalent to pollution (which gives me an idea, see below).

although I can't and won't try to alter your opinion, the part of your argument regarding reality is questionable:

1. balance>realism
2. we are already capable of extracting mineral-resources[the deep deposits] out of the earth while keeping the impact on the surface to a minimum: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mining#Underground_mining
3. we have no idea how much technology has advanced in starmade