How Should a Ship be Killed?

[jath]

I think.... I really do... That systems should be connected. Shooting these systems disconnects them. Say you have 6 groups of thrusters. You take out 1 connection, the ship now only has 5. You disabled the ship if you kill all 6. You take out the weapon connection, now it's helpless. You tell the player to evacuate or he'll be destroyed, he has the chance to make it to an escape pod, (or a fighter inside his fighter bay). Once the ship is taken, or retaken, any connections can be restored, and missing blocks will still be there in "ghost form" which will have an auto fill from inventory option to make repairs easier, (eliminating the need for blueprints).

Each individual system should be target-able (much like in Descent Freespace) so basically, you can opt to target an individual computer, or the center mass of the ship.

If you take out a ships thrusters, and it stops dead in space, and you go on to battle other ships, the player will have the opportunity to repair the damage, and flee or put himself back in the fight.

There is still a single block that will catastrophically disable the ship, which is any block in which the sole pilot resides. For larger ships, if they have a crew, there should still be a countdown upon catastrophic failure (warp core is breached). This will give them the chance to abandon ship if they are still under fire, or repair the ship if all hostiles have been neutralized.

 

[ResonKinetic]

I think.... I really do... That systems should be connected. Shooting these systems disconnects them. Say you have 6 groups of thrusters. You take out 1 connection, the ship now only has 5. You disabled the ship. You take out the weapon connection, now it's helpless. You tell the player to evacuate or he'll be destroyed, he has the chance to make it to an escape pod, (or a fighter inside his fighter bay). Once the ship is taken, or retaken, any connections can be restored, and missing blocks will still be there in "ghost form" which will have an auto fill from inventory option to make repairs easier, (eliminating the need for blueprints).

There is still a single block that will catastrophically disable the ship, which is any block in which the sole pilot resides. For larger ships, if they have a crew, there should still be a countdown upon catastrophic failure (warp core is breached). This will give them the chance to abandon ship if they are still under fire, or repair the ship if all hostiles have been neutralized.

i don't think that's a good way to go about it

if you have something left, that thing that is left should still be working unless its computer is destroyed, which is how things are currently
and since thrusters don't have computers, taking out thrusters shouldn't affect ships any differently than it already does.

 

[jath]

Well, thats my suggestion, to make computers target-able (look at edited paragraph) And realistically, a ship has only a few thrusters compared to what we put on here, and each individual component doesn't work independently. Give a way to disable the whole group (temporarily until repaired) instead of requiring each block be destroyed.

 

[NeonSturm]

###

If you cut a turret in half, it has 2 weapon arrays connected to one CPU and should require 1.1 times energy (default config).
With 3 weapon arrays it's already 1.21, with 10 it's 2.593 with 20 it's 6.727 times energy needed.

If you manage to use punch-through or pierce to cut a weapon array into 20 pieces, the enemy needs 67.27 energy per damage point.
Then your 2 shield rechargers will be superior to his "reactor + power-supply + weapon" in block-efficiency.

A power tank is meant to supply 20 seconds of weapon fire (more if it gets group-bonus) but reactors only supply 2 guns.
If your initial hit now increases power usage of turrets by a factor of 5, the tanks will only last 4 seconds - which is 2/5 of what is needed to take down equal mass in capacitors.​

###

Because of this we already have system damage.
The only problem with it is that it kicks in too late. Either the system is already almost dead or you can't penetrate the shields.

Also it is neither fun to lose to snowballing because the enemy managed to take out a turret with pulse cannons (but NOT hit the array block) thus drain all your power.
Nor is it fun to lose because the enemy has stop beams and a 10% bigger ship.


I don't any good solution ↑, but immediate respawn and (like in counter strike or other games where you have to get most kills)


Maybe carriers should be able to detect targets at long range and launch drones + fighters to intercept it.

The drones + fighters could have a huge advantage due to not needing stuff like FTL or power tanks.

That would add attrition damage to both sides, thus players only attack each other if they can kill the enemy fast enough to actually gain more than they lose.

But this requires a balanced faction system where everybody attacks the strongest.​

 

[wolfboyft]

If this is about the "just killing the core is boring" stuff then maybe we should have multiple cores? Which all have to be blown up?

 

[Comr4de]

I ask this question because it seams there are many different ideas on this subject.
There are technically 4 types of kills.
Catastrophic kill, Mission kill, Mobility kill, and Firepower kill.
And I believe all of these aspects should be taken into account.

You're already speaking my language.

If this is about the "just killing the core is boring" stuff then maybe we should have multiple cores? Which all have to be blown up?

Core drilling is going away in its current form so I don't think that's the issue at hand.

 

[jath]

What's with all the damn neutral "optimistic" crap.... Geeze!

 

[ResonKinetic]

What's with all the damn neutral "optimistic" crap.... Geeze!

It's the new "disagree," you see.

 

[Lecic]

It's the new "disagree," you see.

Old is superior. Especially since most things I disagree with are old points brought back up again.

 

[ResonKinetic]

Old is superior. Especially since most things I disagree with are old points brought back up again.

get optimized

 

[Valiant70]

Okay, after thinking it through, here are my two cents worth.

Explosions:
-A ship should rarely if ever go "kablooey" and just vaporize. I really like the idea of all systems having computers and disabling ships leaving them dead in the water. That's a far more realistic solution.
- If one wishes the ship to vaporize, it should be rigged with disintegrators to self-destruct. (Disintegrators need to NOT explode when shot or bumped, only when activated by logic. Seriously, ditch the nitroglycerin and use C4 instead.)
- Breaking a power reactor has a chance to trigger an explosion if the ship is sufficiently damaged already. Chain reactions might destroy portions of the ship but would be unlikely to totally (or even mostly) vaporize most ships.

Ship kills:
- Destroying a computer disables the system it is connected to. I agree that system computers should be targetable, but there should also be a way to scramble such targeting, such as with a radar jammer.
- Destroying the core should render the ship inoperable (dead in space). Think of the core as the ship's main computer that controls all other computers. No explosion - the ship just ceases to function and computers, including build blocks can no longer be operated. The core could only be repaired with an astrotech beam (or a handheld healing beam) as the ship cannot be entered and the core can't be replaced in astronaut mode. (There should be a way to move ship cores, but only in build mode. The original core should be automatically removed when a new one is placed to make sure there is always exactly ONE core.)

Salvage:
- You can only salvage a ship that has no shields. Interestingly, if you manage to drop the shields and blow out the shield computer, your planetary-scale mining ship would be perfect for quickly finishing off the crippled vessel without wasting/blowing up useful ship components!
- Alternatively, it could work similarly to the current setup where the core must be blasted before you may salvage a ship. The difference would be that there's no timer so you could wait until after the battle to pick up the pieces. This would make less sense realistically, but might make more sense gameplay-wise than the shield idea.

The overall result:
- Ships are far more likely to leave behind useful wreckage, essentially adding the much-suggested debris fields to the game in a very realistic manner!
- With the addition of one of the repair systems that so many have suggested, there is hope of restoring your "dead" ship, or even finding a derelict vessel in a debris field somewhere and restoring it to working condition.
- The destruction of ships would feel far more believable and realistic.

 

[Lecic]

Okay, after thinking it through, here are my two cents worth.

Explosions:
-A ship should rarely if ever go "kablooey" and just vaporize. I really like the idea of all systems having computers and disabling ships leaving them dead in the water. That's a far more realistic solution.
- If one wishes the ship to vaporize, it should be rigged with disintegrators to self-destruct. (Disintegrators need to NOT explode when shot or bumped, only when activated by logic. Seriously, ditch the nitroglycerin and use C4 instead.)
- Breaking a power reactor has a chance to trigger an explosion if the ship is sufficiently damaged already. Chain reactions might destroy portions of the ship but would be unlikely to totally (or even mostly) vaporize most ships.

Ship kills:
- Destroying a computer disables the system it is connected to. I agree that system computers should be targetable, but there should also be a way to scramble such targeting, such as with a radar jammer.
- Destroying the core should render the ship inoperable (dead in space). Think of the core as the ship's main computer that controls all other computers. No explosion - the ship just ceases to function and computers, including build blocks can no longer be operated. The core could only be repaired with an astrotech beam (or a handheld healing beam) as the ship cannot be entered and the core can't be replaced in astronaut mode. (There should be a way to move ship cores, but only in build mode. The original core should be automatically removed when a new one is placed to make sure there is always exactly ONE core.)

Salvage:
- You can only salvage a ship that has no shields. Interestingly, if you manage to drop the shields and blow out the shield computer, your planetary-scale mining ship would be perfect for quickly finishing off the crippled vessel without wasting/blowing up useful ship components!
- Alternatively, it could work similarly to the current setup where the core must be blasted before you may salvage a ship. The difference would be that there's no timer so you could wait until after the battle to pick up the pieces. This would make less sense realistically, but might make more sense gameplay-wise than the shield idea.

The overall result:
- Ships are far more likely to leave behind useful wreckage, essentially adding the much-suggested debris fields to the game in a very realistic manner!
- With the addition of one of the repair systems that so many have suggested, there is hope of restoring your "dead" ship, or even finding a derelict vessel in a debris field somewhere and restoring it to working condition.
- The destruction of ships would feel far more believable and realistic.

I agree with all of this except cores continuing to exist. Instead, ships should be salvageable if they have 1. No Shields 2. Power is offline (power computer destroyed?) 3. No players or active bobby AIs piloting or onboard

 

[NeonSturm]

Salvage:
- You can only salvage a ship that has no shields. Interestingly, if you manage to drop the shields and blow out the shield computer, your planetary-scale mining ship would be perfect for quickly finishing off the crippled vessel without wasting/blowing up useful ship components!
- Alternatively, it could work similarly to the current setup where the core must be blasted before you may salvage a ship. The difference would be that there's no timer so you could wait until after the battle to pick up the pieces. This would make less sense realistically, but might make more sense gameplay-wise than the shield idea.

Agree, but there must be a reason why ships don't get salvaged and left as debris.

For example : hull is salvage immune against the cheap civilian asteroid salvager -> you need a special edition which a normal civilian rock salvager does not have!
Or you need to drag ships with pull beams (tractor beams to a shipyard which has those ship-salvagers.

 

[WaffulMann]

I want module HP in the upcoming system. You can have one big group of thrusters for maximum thrust, but it will get blown up after maybe 50% gets destroyed, or you can have a ton of individual thrusters but not have a lot of efficiency (will still get exploded but one module exploded will not effect another module unless the explosion hits the other module and causes a chain reaction). That's just my opinion. Module HP. Same goes with cloakers, weapons (1 module per type/computer), thrusters, shields, jammers, hyperdrive, jump drives, all that stuff.

 

[jath]

I've been thinking about this and I've come up with a few ideas that I think might work for everyone.

So in starting with the assumptions that
A; we don't want the core to be the only the that matters in killing the ship
B; we want some way of critically damaging a ship without relying on hitting a single particular block
C; we want explosions, but not for no reason.


OK my idea takes place with the pilot out of the core. This is planned. It doesn't eliminate the core, but makes it much less important. It will also make docked ships that are being used as generators both hazardous and more interesting, considering ships with docked generators are OP. It would also give all those core ejection features an actual use. First, docked ships and thier used computers will be targettable. Specific ship systems will also be targettable. Second, when a core is , or the ship is down to 66% (or some other percentage) the core will start to overheat. In order to stop the overheating, the player would physically have to fix the core with the healing gun or an astrobeam. The more the ship's overall health drops, the faster the core will overheat. If the pilot cannot reach the core in time, the ship will explode. The magnitude of the explosion will depend on the number of power reactors, capacitors, and shield emitters are on board (possibly missiles and other things too will contribute) when the ship explodes, the magnitude will determine how much radius and damage is done. Everything inside the exploded ship will die.

If your docked generator overheats in the middle of battle, you can try an automated astrobeam on the core. That bean might not be functional though. You can then try to eject the core. If that logic is broken too, the generator will explode in your ship blowing a hole in the area it was docked. If you successfully eject it, it might damage enemy fighters, or it may still damage your ship.

If your main ship is overheating and you can't reach it or whatever, your best option might be to get to an escape pod.

The core will not be marked in the targeting screen, but hitting it directly will still start a countdown. Hitting the pilot seat you're in would kick you from the seat and leave you with 25% health. You'll then need to either find a different seat, install a new one, or escape the ship. Chances are though, being thrown from your seat will cause you to die though because the area likely recieved a lot more attacks that just the one that destroyed your chair. Plex undeathinators will work on ships but only as long as the core isn't overheating.[DOUBLEPOST=1413363231,1413362978][/DOUBLEPOST]The core countdown does not disable the ship, it could still fight. It could also have the chance to maneuver within blast range of the enemy to do kamikaze damage.

 

[Valiant70]

It really bugs me that there's currently no chance of putting a ship completely out of operation without causing it to explode within minutes. The core is... what, the master computer of a ship? All the other computers link to it and it contains the flight control systems. It sure as heck isn't a reactor or much of anything that should go "poof" much less blow a planetoid-class ship (or even a fighter) apart. The way I see it, the core is a computer that just lacks a remote access point.

Who thought it was a good idea to put this random bottle of antimatter inside of a computer and wrap the mechanism in nitroglycerine? Seriously... fire the mad scientist and hire an engineer.

 

[FunnyBunny14]

It really bugs me that there's currently no chance of putting a ship completely out of operation without causing it to explode within minutes. The core is... what, the master computer of a ship? All the other computers link to it and it contains the flight control systems. It sure as heck isn't a reactor or much of anything that should go "poof" much less blow a planetoid-class ship (or even a fighter) apart. The way I see it, the core is a computer that just lacks a remote access point.

Who thought it was a good idea to put this random bottle of antimatter inside of a computer and wrap the mechanism in nitroglycerine? Seriously... fire the mad scientist and hire an engineer.

The core isn't going to be important anymore once the hp system gets implemented. When that day comes, we really should start thinking about how a ship should be killed.

I vote for the massive bang.

 

[Zedrackis]

In a realistic sense a ship is just the sum of its parts. They shouldn't be killed at all unless its total mass is reduced to zero. Instead they should become uncontrollable. The system we have now of 'oh look I killed a ship, let me jump in it and fly it away' is bad. That said a ship should be centred around its computers and its access terminals/consoles/flight controls/and so on. When you kill those you effectively make the ship unusable but salvageable. Think of it in terms of star trek, fry all of the ships bridges or its computer core and the ships just floating mound of space junk. Even if the crew is still alive inside of it.

Some things I would like to see:

The ability to shoot off sections of ships, so ships with flimsy pylons and such risk loosing a core component from focused fire. This more for small craft that tend to get shoot to pieces and come out of a fight with blocks and sections free floating all around them while still surviving.

Cascade failures to system blocks. Give each block a chance to explode on taking damage and in turn damage the blocks immediate around it. This would turn the classic flying box/block/brick design into a flying case of explosives. Effectively deborg'ing the game a little.


Each Sector could have its own static debris field object when needed. When a ship dies or looses a section of its body, just add it to the debris field. Allowing a sector exposed to heavy destruction to rack up a nice debris field for salvager's while keeping object count down.

 

[WaffulMann]

In a realistic sense a ship is just the sum of its parts. They shouldn't be killed at all unless its total mass is reduced to zero. Instead they should become uncontrollable. The system we have now of 'oh look I killed a ship, let me jump in it and fly it away' is bad. That said a ship should be centred around its computers and its access terminals/consoles/flight controls/and so on. When you kill those you effectively make the ship unusable but salvageable. Think of it in terms of star trek, fry all of the ships bridges or its computer core and the ships just floating mound of space junk. Even if the crew is still alive inside of it.

This. This so much. I don't want a ship to explode unless you hit a major power module, and I want systems to rely on each other more. So when one or more systems get taken out the ship is effectively dead, but the corpse of the ship should always remain in space as salvage. Maybe it can get that "old" affect we will have with abandoned systems, and when you salvage them you get scraps instead of blocks.

 

[aceface]

Catastrophic kill is the ship being damaged beyond use or repair. Mission kill is when the ship is rendered incapable of participating in the fight. A Mobility kill is when the ship is unable to move or maneuver. And a Firepower kill is when the ships weapons are destroyed or disabled.

would be nice if there was a scanner that could indicate where the weapons cpus are to make weapons kills easier