World's as instances

[Cerebralhemirage]

I have found that of all the things that I love about SM.. There is one thing not so high on that list.. World's. They are the bane of slower computers.. and just space hogs in general, and although, the floating dice scheme is Cool.. the surface area's are smaller.. kinda distracting that my small ships look as if they landed on an asteroid.

So.. I was thinking.. What if planets were instances.. just an atmosphere to denote their positions in space and when a ship is close enough.. the player can be asked if they wish to achieve orbit.. if Yes.. then.. they can be teleported to the surface which will be just an instance.. a world like minecraft minus digging below the surface.. essentially.. a plate with a buffet on top.. when a player walks close enough to the edge of the world they will teleport to it's opposite edge as they have circled the globe so to speak.. that grant's the illusion of scale. Can any of this be possible within the SM framework is the big question. If it could.. it may improve stability and performance.. of course.. world's will not be able to be destroyed anymore.. but.. I would take that trade as fair.

This approach could lead to even more depth in gameplay as wars on land would be quite different than wars in space.. strike teams become the normal fare.. building bases.. relay stations.. ways to spawn in small vehicles from your ship.. orbital bombardments.. and of course.. there is the pesky problem of alien life..

 

[NeonSturm]

Yes, but I heard that schema does not want that at all costs.

You just need to know when to load stuff into memory - that's all

 

[ToyotaSupra]

No. And no to you too Ithirahad, dyel?

(Let me explain: It's an old one that has been put down a few times, so far the reactions to people who've suggested this before have been mostly negative. There a a few reasons why, but I'll let others explain.)

 

[Cerebralhemirage]

Well.. I am new to the forums.. I'm sure I have missed a lot. But Thanks for your replies. It was only a thought anyways. I would like to know more so I will become more avid in my reading here. Thanks again.

 

[ltmauve]

The reasons given were that it limits the interaction between ground and space and also adds in loading screens.

 

[CyberTao]

Breaks immersion as well, but all I really know is Schema didn't want it, and I can respect that. When you start making a game, you would normally have an idea of what you'd like to see it turn out as. And in that vision, I guess Schema saw non-instanced planets.

There are other minor issues, like mapping entry and exit points, removal of the 3 dimensions of combat (Not to mention you could line the surface with turrets, and kill anything that enters /Troll weapon), and the fact that Planets probably wont be loaded unless someone was sitting on them (Limits what players could do if they had to babysit a factory setup).

I also think the universe would have to be scaled up, else it would look kinda strange in my eyes (Battleships being bigger then the atmosphere bubble). I dunno, could be nice actually, but it takes away from other aspects (in a sense).
I actually hope for some hardcore modder to try and do this when Modding becomes available (just to see what it'd be like).

 

[Cerebralhemirage]

True that loading screens would be a factor.. but.. game lag is a factor otherwise. Much more stable environments and gameplay enhancement are the bonuses..plus.. the separation between ground and space are merely separate functions anyways.. soldiers on the ground know there is a bigger picture.. but to function as a soldier.. they focus on their surroundings.. preferably without lag.. I have a huge amount of respect for what Schema has done thus far.. hence the reason I decided to join in it.. in the end.. it is his game.. I just want to be a part of it.. so I choose to offer my thoughts. I am most glad that I am receiving replies here.. they increase my understanding of Starmade. Thanks to all.[DOUBLEPOST=1410363248,1410360105][/DOUBLEPOST]I have found.. only in my experience thus far.. that lag has been the overall contributor to my lack of emersion.. but I have a slower system. A newer and faster computer I am building.. maybe my thoughts may change on the subject once I have my fully operational space station.. Lol.. but.. there will always be people with older versions of computational wizardry that will still dream to play Starmade.. that will always be at least half of the client base, in today's economy.. much more than that.. again.. I am just thinking out loud, So.. that would be at least half of gamers that would be to frustrated to play Starmade.. which in turn means upping the price to those that do to remain profitable.. and of course by profit.. I mean just what is barely marginal to survive and continue to expand the game. What is a load time by comparison to not playing at all? Just a marginal sacrifice for an even better game. A fair trade.. again.. I am not trying to sell anything.. I am only posting my thoughts.. half is at the very least proportionate to losing an arm and a leg.. I as an artist would not give up either.

 

[aceface]

I am agreeing with this because even though I have quite high end hardware $350 grpahics card, i still have to change the planet's size to 50 m in diameter to achieve an acceptable framerate. The default size is WAAAAY to big for my pc, i would then get 10 fps which is not so nice

 

[CyberTao]

Mmm, you raise a fair point. But this is alpha, poor optimization is a reality there I'm afraid (Though Schema is working on that). Lag is introduced by many things, one of which is just sheer number of blocks and exposed block surfaces (Textures are only rendered if that side of the block is not touching any other except for transparent blocks like Mesh and glass).

This would mean that large objects and caves are major parts of lag, yet both would still be there should you choose instanced planets. All it would really do, is -physically*- unload nearby ships and stations while you are on the planet. it would still try to load as much of the planet as it can (as dictated by max render distance).

If the problem is not the sheer block count, it's mainly just not properly optimized. Optimization comes in around end Alpha/Beta I think. But I do think that instanced planets would still suffer from the lag problems.

*I say physically, because the game would still have to load the entities in order to list them on the navigation screen (unless that is disabled on planets). Just wouldn't load the textures/chunks.

Dunno how close I am to the truth, but this is what my mind came up with. I have to work though, so I cant debate it unfortunately.

 

[Cerebralhemirage]

A true argument.. but.. at the land base of the planet.. you are unable to mine beneath it.. just as in minecraft.. all the useless chunks of data beneath.. gone.. not just gone.. never there. Essentially.. you are on a plate.. does this not free up space by raising the land that is unalterable to right under your feet? That is half a world that does not need to be there.. to increase this even further.. only certain blocks should be able to be mined.. that would increase the emersion factor as you would need to explore to mine anything. Freeing up the demand to the game engine is the key.. without sacrificing it's playability or emersion.. so.. why not do away with the ability to mine everything on a planet? Not everything is useful.. only the parts needed to build our space empires.. is this not possible? Ending lag is simple.. end the amount of interaction to useless blocks.. Yes.. I know what this means.. lack of realism to a certain degree.. but I would not visit a planet to mine it's dirt anyways.

 

[Saber]

As some of the others have said previously, the primary problem would be that instances would eliminate the interaction between space and ground. I've spent a lot of time on planets, so I can definitely see where you're coming from, but that seamless movement from space to planet is one of the things that makes StarMade unique.

I think if planet's could be given more time to load in then with further optimization (for lag) it wouldn't be as much of an issue. There was another game I played briefly which I thought had a very interesting system in place. In this game you would fly towards a planet and it would appear to grow larger, then you hit a certain point and it almost seemed like you slowed down, or the planet scaled up. Because you wouldn't be moving through as much space, but the planet would be steadily getting bigger and bigger, until it was about the size you would expect to see. Now I don't know if anything like this could work for StarMade, as the planet's are (compared to some games, or reality) fairly small.

Even increasing the planet's atmospheric/gravity sphere I think could help, it would keep player's further away, allowing more to load in from a distance. Then perhaps, given that further distance some re-entry effects would be able to come up if you were breaking into the atmosphere. As the atmosphere and gravity stand now I feel like they're much too close to the planet. I could go on but I feel like this is getting too long. If you guys would like I could make a separate post explaining my experience with planets and changes I hope to see in the future.

In summary, I feel there are things that can be done to help players load and view planets, but I don't think we need to change the way they visit them.

 

[NeonSturm]

The problem with planets are tunnels, mines and over-hang cliffs.

I know a strategy game (springrts.com based on GPL) that has very huge pretty maps with 1'000 units limit above 5'000 it often starts to lag even though it is written in C++.

But it is unable to have over-hang cliffs, tunnels or the like.

Objects are not blocks, but 3D models like you can make in blender (not ingame) with a limit or about 100 units in one game, 1000 in another 5000 (not build of individual blocks!) in the biggest one.
But with 5000 individual units, you have to balance 15 of them a day for a year. Also you will never use them all in every game thus this game was never played and died.

 

[Cerebralhemirage]

Well.. good argument. It's all just beta.. Or alpha.. whatever the case may be.. I only assumed it was in beta.. shame on me.. but it is these arguments that forge it out of whatever state it is in currently.. alpha, beta, so.. not a game yet if one prescribes to such useless labels, thankfully I do not. As a note to the gravity of planets.. I still have a ship out there that apparently even with upgraded speed capacity.. still cannot break away from it.. after much time and effort and blasting it's surface.. I chose suicide. That is not fun to me.. especially since my ship was bigger than it anyways.. this is the point where realism declines into Atari.. Dodge cars or swing over pits of alligators.. my ship was still stuck to a floating dice in space.. for No other reason than it was unrealisticly portrayed.. of course.. maybe I should not have landed my ship there.. but then again.. that is what explorers do. I could go on.. but.. explaining the way we visit a world was what I have been trying to say.. world's are not asteroids made of superglue.. to proportionatly reflect what a world is.. would require much more calculation than even the most expensive calculator.. it is the game that matters.. not the expense of data to create an asteroid made of superglue. I have a ship out there still stuck on the surface of one of these floating dice in space.. though I want to save it.. I cannot.. it is gone. It was a casualty.. under the current laws of the galaxy.. changing those laws is the art of programming.. I cannot quote any of that.. that is Schema's forte not mine.. but.. as a gamer.. and artist.. I can only say.. I lost a ship.. of course the game is a beta.. but then again.. we are all beta testers.. so losing that ship stuck to that floating die in space.. that is an acceptable loss.. but.. I am still seeking a way to recover it.

 

[FunnyBunny14]

I like the occlusion option that was added. But it only helps if you are not looking at the planet.

Therefor, I would like to propose another option, one in which it will only load the segments that are visible at that moment. I know my graphics card and processor would really appreciate that, and I would too, because that would mean that I could have bigger planets without having my computer lag itself to death.

 

[Mariux]

Why do you... Always... Talk... Like... That...?

P.S. I like the planets both ways, I wouldn't mind if this gets implemented or not.

 

[Cerebralhemirage]

I know of many of those games.. all the ones that died.. Starmade is not one of them.. not in my mind.. if there be any reason that it should falter.. I will give up my job to carry it's torch.. in the advent of that scenario.. World's will not be dice in space.. they would be what a world is meant to be.. a huge and vast discovery.. something worthy of exploration.. the game within the game.. load times trump lag.

 

[aceface]

I like the occlusion option that was added. But it only helps if you are not looking at the planet.

Therefor, I would like to propose another option, one in which it will only load the segments that are visible at that moment. I know my graphics card and processor would really appreciate that, and I would too, because that would mean that I could have bigger planets without having my computer lag itself to death.

lower max draw segments

 

[Saber]

Keep in mind that this game isn't even beta yet, it's still Alpha so there are going to be a lot of changes coming. As far as the gravity goes I'd say an easy way to make the limit known would be to have the atmosphere and extent of the gravity line up. Then you know as soon as you enter the atmosphere you'll be getting pulled down. Also, exploring planets is great, but if you try and take a ship made only for travel in space you're going to have a bad time in gravity.

one in which it will only load the segments that are visible at that moment

It does do this to an extent. If you're on a planet plate, it will typically only keep that planet plate, or adjacent ones you've been looking in the direction of loaded. If you hop in a core and quickly start orbiting you'll see the other plates loading in front of you.

It does not though, as far as I understand it, keep them from loading if you look down at the ground. My computer chugs a bit if I'm on a planet and look at the ground because it's quickly loading everything on the opposite side of the planet. Something which will be worked on in the future I imagine.

Just remember guys, these things are still very much a work in progress, we only got dodecahedron planets a couple months ago, so I imagine we'll see some great progress for them in the future.

 

[Cerebralhemirage]

What if what you see was only an inverted skybox with the graphical representation of a world? Would your graphics engine be so vexed? then.. Why calculate a world of blocks without need? Of course you intend to land there.. No need to create high load for a surface that you cannot explore until you land there anyways, what would be the point? I would prefer a beautiful rendition of a planet.. with option to land there or fly away.. there will never be a true rendition of a planet under the current limitations of even the most intelligent programming genius.. that is why artful renditions are used. You can provide illusion.. or you cannot.. the most artful provide both illusion and substance.. it is the art of making a great game. No one should be lagged by inconsequential useless data that can be simply rendered as a simple rendition of a world.. so what if you can blast that simple asteroid rendition of a planet from space? In the end.. it is not a world anyways.. it is a data hog pretending to be one. World's are instances.. I am not wrong.

 

[FunnyBunny14]

Wow, dude, do you seriously kill every paragraph that tries to get typed? You might want to think of having some in the future, otherwise everything just looks like one huge big mess.

I was thinking about the loading problem. My solution to this problem would be to have the game pre-generate a couple of planets of each type completely while starting a universe for the first time and have them saved somewhere. That way you wouldn't have as much lag when visiting planets for the first time.
The planets that need to be pre-generated after that will be generating over a period of time, and thus spreading all the strain over a larger period, resulting in reduced lag.

That still just is a theory though, and I'd like to know if it is possible.