Crafting System maps: A Rat's Nest

[Neon_42]

Hi all,

I've been tinkering with the crafting system for the past few days. I've made a few threads about what It. This one is just for your benefit. I have mapped the entire crafting system using a program called yED. It is a free program used to make easy to read diagrams. Unfortunately the nature of the crafting system makes this not easy to read. I shall do my best to explain as I post them. A link to download the PDF's is at the bottom of this post. The full res images are too big to post on imgur.

Spoiler: Craft Map

In this one I tried to create a hierarchy of how you would progress through the crafting tree. However it looks like a mess no matter how I try to rearrange it. I did not include refining as that is just a one step process from raw materials to capsules.

Spoiler: Craft Hierarchy

In this map I used one of yEDs sorting algorithms to make a crafting hierarchy. The most complex and intensive recipes are on the top and the raw resources are on the bottom. It is still a bit hard to read as the ores and 'dirts' are somewhere around the 3rd step from the bottom.

I hope this all helps you all navigate this rat's nest of a crafting system we have.

link to pdfs: http://www.mediafire.com/download/xfo4027w7n8u9x7/0_163craftmaps.zip

Neon_42

 

[FunnyBunny14]

Or you could just have mutiple macro assemblers displaying the individual steps.

 

[jstenholt]

Okay, this is a perfect illustration of how ludicrously complex the new system is.

Why can't crafting be like the rest of Starmade? Simple, elegant components that all contribute to a complex, fun, and functional total package?

 

[FunnyBunny14]

Ok, it can be a bit clumay at times, but it is about as complicated as having a completely modded minecraft (tekkit). Sure, it could be a bit more streamlined (bobby AI, I'm looking at you!), but overal it is a huge improvement over the old system, and I hope it is here to stay.

My reasoning: it encourages people to build factories. It is complicated, but not that complicated that it is not usable. Crafting things without linking takes longer, but not too long.

I do think that there should be a cheap calculator in the game, just because it is so hard to calculate how much you need without it.

 

[Neon_42]

I disagree. There are too many issues with this crafting system.

1. There are several chokes along the way at metal mesh, grills, and crystal circuits. This just reduces the number of shards and ores available.
2. There is too much cross talk. We make shard imbued circuits but then we need more shards to add to make nodes and more circuits which require more shards to make those nodes. Then we need more shards, nodes and circuits to make processors which in return require more circuits which requires shards. yadda yadda yadda. This is impossible to comprehend.
3. How difficult it is to mass produce a block is seemingly arbitrary. For a simplish piece of equipment shield capacitors are about as difficult to produce as bobbys.
4. Recipies in some cases don't make sense. Why does it take 30 shard and 60 dirt to make 1 paint? why cant I paint hulls? why cant I dye glass

I have a few issues with the above statement too.

1. The old system encouraged people to build factories too. Getting really efficient recipies was an interesting aspect to the game.
2. no system should require a calculator to calculate outputs in a game. If you can't do the math in your head it is too complicated. I came here to play not to retake basic algebra.
3. I like the bobby where it is. It is arguably the most effective and most complicated piece of equipment we have. To manny bobbys means fighters and small craft will have a hard time dealing with turrets.

 

[Ithirahad]

Okay, this is a perfect illustration of how ludicrously complex the new system is.

Why can't crafting be like the rest of Starmade? Simple, elegant components that all contribute to a complex, fun, and functional total package?

You just summed up neatly what I've been trying to say in multiple paragraphs across multiple threads. Crafting shouldn't be complex if we don't want it to be. Power isn't complicated unless you are an advanced player and want to super-maximize efficiency. Other systems certainly aren't complicated ever, really, unless you want to tweak the nuances and get exactly what you want out of it as an advanced player. Logic sure as hell isn't complicated if you don't want to use it for complicated things. So why does crafting have to be big, ugly, smelly rat's nest, which forces players to hunt halfway around the galaxy, harvest annoying (if not ridiculous) amounts of material, and build huge coordinated factory networks just to have the materials to build something that isn't a tiny little speeder?

...Also, a message to the devs:

as for expense of stuff, I understand that you don't always think in terms of 'larger' ships, but let's face it, the kinds of ships people want to make are usually <5000 mass. The Enterprise definitely, any Klingon ships that anyone actually cares about are, AFAIK many Asgard ships are a pretty good size, Jem'Hadar ships are like that, Ori ships are, White Stars are like that, Cylon ships are like that, most Vorlon ships are like that, Leviathans are definitely pretty big (Though they can be smaller)... Need I go on?

(Yes, I know... There're things like the Peacekeeper Prowler, the Federation Danube and Yellowstone runabouts, the various other fighters and small craft... But whoever wanted to fly those?)

(Also... even my modest corvette hull, the Kalen-Miris-class, would be a serious pain to make with just crafting-system materials.)

I'm not saying that everyone should be able to have a heavy battlecruiser, or, gods help us, a titan, within minutes of getting on (That's silly.) but... A few hours of work in harvesting and crafting should be roughly equivalent in results to a few hours of work in salvaging wrecks, or an hour's load of dead pirates. I can spend an hour or three salvaging crap laying around, such as shipwrecks and stations, sell that, and quite quickly have enough money for a small artificial planetoid. If I waste that time trying to mine asteroids and planets and build a long factory chain, I might have enough resources for a gunboat... maybe... But I'd still have to factor in the time needed for the actual factory to process the resources, not to mention the time I spend muddling around with recipes trying to remember what goes where.

...And @NeonSturm (Above post), I agree, besides the ridiculous old factory system, which was a waste of resources, a waste of time, and usually either extremely underpowered or extremely overpowered. The new one is an improvement, but only barely... If issues like the "crosstalk" and numerical silliness you described were fixed, then we'd have a good system.

 

[Neon_42]

^ this

I feel like the should be some optimum size that the crafting is good for. Fighters and corvettes should be relatively easy to produce as they will also be starter ships. I think that the system should be optimal for destroyer sized vessels. Something around 100 or so blocks long. maybe 50 tall and wide. To build anything bigger you'd need to wait a while as a bigger ship is obviously going to be more powerful and Ideally there should be less of them because they are resource intensive.

 

[jstenholt]

You just summed up neatly what I've been trying to say in multiple paragraphs across multiple threads. C

You feel free to use that one wherever you see fit, I'm determined to get more people to speak up if they don't like the current system.

 

[AssIn9]

My 2 half pence, i'm very happy with the new system. It almost makes this space building simulator a game. Kill death ratios for players and factions would be nice.... If your having issues gathering materials to make your super titan, GOOD! If it was easy, a caveman could do it. I don't like flying cavemen.

If your preference is building. you employ faction members to fly your mining craft and others to run factories and maintain a defended faction base. then you need fighters and carriers, frigates and destroyers. its an arms race. With a complex crafting system and if we could deflate the prices, we could have a lot of fun. Making the game fun for noobs would be up to the faction members looking to recruit. If you make small ships easy for a new player to procure, by introducing your self and giving them one, they tend to remember you and are more willing to be your meat shield in a firefight. I like meat shields.

We have 2 fabrication systems. I like them both. the 255 limit is a little annoying, but it makes it work. honestly though, I'm not against having actual programming available to players on logic systems like factories to say only make 4 of a block if there is no demand. or only make green lights when a player is docked to the 4th docking platform on the right side of the 2nd docking bay, and open a door when there are 200 green lights, eject them from the storage unit on the platform so the docked ship picks them up and unlock the ship, initiate push beam system and launch the ship through a warp gate. Another logic would be a room that you walk into after spawning, full of storage, with standard building materials within. one door in. loads the storage with what the server admin thinks are appropriate for a new player, or a player that has just died and lost all credits and blocks. factories would then be able to automatically re fill the storage to the set levels and re open the door for a player to access them.

I have not loaded the latest version. Irl I have responsibilities. But reading the change log, it makes the factory system more controllable through the logic added to storage.

 

[jstenholt]

You seem to think that any server you join is going to have an abundance of peons, just waiting for the right guy to come along and force them to do menial labor for others in a video game. That is a flawed design, and could not be sustainable.

 

[Neon_42]

I would say if you're looking for a space builder game, go play space engineers. I should hope that Starmade is more focused on a larger experience than that.

I don't particularly disagree with any one point you've made, though I don't like how complicated it has become. Crafting is a fundamental mechanism and should be as simple as possible to make the other parts of the game more accessible. It is not that the factory system is not controllable. It is that it is not easily understandable and it is extremely inefficeint. IRL I also have responsibilities. I cant spend hours everyday mining. I'd like to be able to mine and craft a ship in the scale of about an afternoon. It should be able to fit in a 50x50x100 docking area or so. Titans and such I think should take longer, but fighters can be produced relatively quickly

 

[FunnyBunny14]

Like I said before, the biggest problem is that your basic resources require too many, well, resources. It would already be a huge improvement if the power reactors didn't use as many resources.

I also think that you should only need 10 and 5 capsules for recipes instead of the 12 and 6, because it just is so incredibly hard to calculate the most efficient ways to craft now.

 

[Aecetym]

I hope this all helps you all navigate this rat's nest of a crafting system we have.

Well this is the first time I looked at the complete picture and I don't feel like crafting anything that way. It seems everything is used in equal amounts, no rare but needed value elements and no way you can produce enough to fuel an economie and at the same time provide stuff for your own usage.

The whole crafting system is a total buzzkill for the game imo.

 

[Ithirahad]

I wouldn't go THAT far, Aece, since resources can be obtained other ways, but it's kind of a buzzkill for a crafting update everyone waited quite a while for. Good thing is, now that the systems are around, it's fully customizable.

 

[Hanspeter Schnitzel]

Eh, can still sell all the mined stuff and buy your ships. Considering the crafting map trading with salvage and ore might seem to be perhaps not be faster or more effecient, but at least simpler.

 

[starhaiden]

starmade is a Si-FI games Si-FI games are set in the future and I think things wouldn't be that hard to make in the future. we build things to make it easier to make things. like machines. It should be easier crafting materials I think I prefer the old crafting system even though it had many loop holes it was easy to make things

 

[aceface]

Okay, this is a perfect illustration of how ludicrously complex the new system is.

Why can't crafting be like the rest of Starmade? Simple, elegant components that all contribute to a complex, fun, and functional total package?

EXACTLY![DOUBLEPOST=1410631147,1410628423][/DOUBLEPOST]

I disagree. There are too many issues with this crafting system.

1. There are several chokes along the way at metal mesh, grills, and crystal circuits. This just reduces the number of shards and ores available.
2. There is too much cross talk. We make shard imbued circuits but then we need more shards to add to make nodes and more circuits which require more shards to make those nodes. Then we need more shards, nodes and circuits to make processors which in return require more circuits which requires shards. yadda yadda yadda. This is impossible to comprehend.
3. How difficult it is to mass produce a block is seemingly arbitrary. For a simplish piece of equipment shield capacitors are about as difficult to produce as bobbys.
4. Recipies in some cases don't make sense. Why does it take 30 shard and 60 dirt to make 1 paint? why cant I paint hulls? why cant I dye glass

I have a few issues with the above statement too.

1. The old system encouraged people to build factories too. Getting really efficient recipies was an interesting aspect to the game.
2. no system should require a calculator to calculate outputs in a game. If you can't do the math in your head it is too complicated. I came here to play not to retake basic algebra.
3. I like the bobby where it is. It is arguably the most effective and most complicated piece of equipment we have. To manny bobbys means fighters and small craft will have a hard time dealing with turrets.

I do agree with everything you said except the thing about the old system. That didn't really make much sense - for example 2 dirt for 1 l5 ore was insane and not an interesting aspect of the game.

 

[jstenholt]

Indeed, the old system was complete bunk.

 

[Hanspeter Schnitzel]

I wish we didn't have as many inbetween steps, like processors and all that, but could instead go from capsule to finished product. But for some advanced stuff like bobby AIs we need a special sort of shard or something like that. Just something to make those trees more simple. How is anyone supposed to remember that?

Factories should also have a "display crafting tree" button with a search function.

 

[FunnyBunny14]

No, the crafting recipes are fine the way they are. There should either be:

• A simple version, with some possible nerfs (think of not being able to link the factories, stuff like that), and an advanced version, with a reward (like efficiency, or items extra per so many cycles).
• A tutorial to get the player started with the crafting mechanics.

Or both, or more, like:

• Simpler overview with tabs and links.
• A note system, to, well, make notes.
• A calculator in which you select how many of a certain block you want, and them have it tell you how many you need in total, so you don't have to do all the math yourself.
• A displayed crafting on display modules, that could be made by linking the factory to the display module. Also, you would be able to make bigger screens, so you could have a better view of the tree.