You Have Failed Us

[MacThule]

it was the meta players who got long time exploits patched

This is a very selective truth, and an important issue in the entire outcry against 2.0 coming specifically from this particular clique.

Some long-term exploits were reported, yes. Some. Meanwhile, they actively used and shared some other bugs (such as laminate armor) to exploited as "tech" used to dominate PvP. And I know because you all invited me to your Discord because I am very pro PvP, and when I stopped playing over the Summer (cause Summer) I still saw all the tech and the attitude was distinctly not "hey look - rail dockers set up like this can cause multiple layers of armor to exist in the same location at the same time - I'm reporting that on phab" it was more like (paraphrasing) "yeah, I am putting 5 layers of clipped laminate armor around my aux power so there's no way it can get popped by a missile with the way clipped laminate interferes with the raytracing calcs. Next battle this new ship will be awesome."

That is not "meta." Used in that way, "meta" player is basically a euphemism for a player who actively seeks out and exploits bugs to dominate MP servers for lulz... oh, and sometimes even reports them when they are too well known to be useful, or legitimately game breaking.

If you read his entire comment you would see what it has to do with it. It's spelt out quite clearly

In a good faith dialogue, when someone responds to a rambling WoT ('How to I know there's gold in them hills? Well let me tell you a little story about a man named Jeb...") with a civil request for clarification about one specific point not clearly supported, most earnest people will take a few seconds to respond briefly - at least once - with a tl;dr summary in case they had not come through as clearly as they had intended.

It's an interesting response to tell the person "if you read" (directly implying that they didn't or can't read, rather than admitting that it is humanly possible that an important point may have been somewhat unclear) while never actually clarifyng how, for example, a fun story about Veilith teaching someone how to effectively exploit bugs in MP (some of which were reported) somehow invalidates the fact of a game being in Alpha as proper cause for a major overhaul after years of testing.
[doublepost=1518497320,1518497138][/doublepost]

even just the posts on this page alone paint a very different story, there are a few who have supposedly left, many just aren't playing now because the gamestate isn't currently worth their time for a variety of game impacting reasons, i outlined mine above. These impact the basic testing i want to do on system 2.0 builds in the first place so it is very limiting as to what I can do online. I have no doubt that a lot of people playing for the combat & related engineering side of gameplay feel the same.

I agree. I agreed when you first made that point. It is a good point. I was only referring specifically and explicitly to people saying they were leaving based on what has happened to the community and drama over 2.0.

its entirely possible that they are leaving because they dont enjoy the game.

Except not at all when they explicitly state they haven't played at all in a while and are leaving entirely because some people are waging a perpetual drama campaign here.

 

[kulbolen]

Except not at all when they explicitly state they haven't played at all in a while and are leaving entirely because some people are waging a perpetual drama canpaign here.

i dont like the new update. most other people ive talked to dont like the new update... theyre allowed to voice their opinions. if someone makes a decision to not play based on someone elses opinion, thats their choice.

This is a very selective truth, and an important issue in the entire outcry against 2.0 coming specifically from this particular clique.

what you apparently dont know is we privately message the devs about lots of these exploits and other ones you never heard about. if youd been in our disc long enough and actually looked for info you would know that, because we regularly talk about it.

 

[MacThule]

what you apparently dont know is we privately message the devs about lots of these exploits and other ones you never heard about. if youd been in our disc long enough and actually looked for info you would know that, because we regularly talk about it.

Except that I reported two of the bugs I learned of directly from that channel, weeks later, on phab and there were no other outstanding tickets on the same issues. Between that and the tone of discussion it certainly did not appear to be the priority in several cases. In fact, so-called meta teams tend to be quite proprietary about the exploits they've discovered and preventing competing PvP teams from acquiring them.

So saying there were private mails is fine, but there is an actual system in place for debugging and there are very few reasons not to use that rather than or in addition to private email. But I must concede that there is no way I could be privvy to all the private comms player have with devs outside of phab, and so it is arguable that they could have been dilligently reporting everything.

And I do agree - a lot of players I talk to dislike various aspects of 2.0, though the specifics vary widely. I don't find that particularly indicative of problems, and would expect any veterans used to playing under any particular rule system to express a lot of distress over deep changes to known factors and dynamics. Deep changes were demanded by the community though; there were frequent conplaints about problems within core systems affecting balance. Schine tried to conpensate for those failings but was told that compensations were insufficient, so what course, other than a deep rebuild based on experience with years in the current system, could they undertake to correct fundamental balance problems? In what real-world scenario would this not upset most of the long-term players who played for so long exactly because they were attached to existing core dynamics?

 

[Az14el]

In what real-world scenario would this not upset most of the long-term players who played for so long exactly because they were attached to existing core dynamics?

what kinda question is that?
of course it upsets people and for a few people that really was enough, but what's the point? is it that discourse on 2.0 is too heavily biased against the changes altogether? because there are still people making objective observations based on testing and truth is SMD just isn't the best place for it no more, so you're not going to see the most of it. Some schine/smd staff on discord probably will. So you're left with assumptions, based on behaviour you observed for what you admit was a short time, can't you just run with the assumption that assumptions suck? one of the few safe assumptions.

 

[GDPR 302420]

Except that I reported two of the bugs I learned of directly from that channel, weeks later, on phab and there were no other outstanding tickets on the same issues. Between that and the tone of discussion it certainly did not appear to be the priority in several cases. In fact, so-called meta teams tend to be quite proprietary about the exploits they've discovered and preventing competing PvP teams from acquiring them.

You do know that Schine usually makes phab reports about exploits private (only Schine can see them) right?

The reason you "didnt see any outstanding tickets" was probably because they were all private and you could not see them, when I reported the cheat engine exploit Vaygr used to change faction ids of accounts they were logged into it was made private, not even I could see it and neither could anyone else.

 

[kulbolen]

Except that I reported two of the bugs I learned of directly from that channel, weeks later, on phab and there were no other outstanding tickets on the same issues. Between that and the tone of discussion it certainly did not appear to be the priority in several cases. In fact, so-called meta teams tend to be quite proprietary about the exploits they've discovered and preventing competing PvP teams from acquiring them.

So saying there were private mails is fine, but there is an actual system in place for debugging and there are very few reasons not to use that rather than or in addition to private email. But I must concede that there is no way I could be privvy to all the private comms player have with devs outside of phab, and so it is arguable that they could have been dilligently reporting everything.

that was a lot of words to call me a liar. i told you we report stuff to the devs.

And I do agree - a lot of players I talk to dislike various aspects of 2.0, though the specifics vary widely. I don't find that particularly indicative of problems, and would expect any veterans used to playing under any particular rule system to express a lot of distress over deep changes to known factors and dynamics. Deep changes were demanded by the community though; there were frequent conplaints about problems within core systems affecting balance. Schine tried to conpensate for those failings but was told that compensations were insufficient, so what course, other than a deep rebuild based on experience with years in the current system, could they undertake to correct fundamental balance problems? In what real-world scenario would this not upset most of the long-term players who played for so long exactly because they were attached to existing core dynamics?

i cant speak for everyone else, but i dont mind changes to the system, the thing i enjoy most about the game is learning. it seems youre attempting to dismiss peoples concerns as simply being resistant to change, just because one of their concerns may be resistance to change... hmm.

 

[MacThule]

what kinda question is that?
of course it upsets people and for a few people that really was enough, but what's the point? is it that discourse on 2.0 is too heavily biased against the changes altogether? because there are still people making objective observations based on testing and truth is SMD just isn't the best place for it no more, so you're not going to see the most of it. Some schine/smd staff on discord probably will. So you're left with assumptions, based on behaviour you observed for what you admit was a short time, can't you just run with the assumption that assumptions suck? one of the few safe assumptions.

It's not about the discourse on 2.0. It's about citing discontent as a defense for hyperbole. Saying we see problems is a far... far different thing from saying things like the devs don't care or the game is dead on account of a change that upsets you.

I get emoting; that's legit and it's not crazy that it will be extreme, but discontent doesn't mean that hyperbole is above question. It doesn't mean that countering those extremes with reason is somehow opposing rational feedback or hating PvPers because the individual over-emoting happens to identify as PvP-oriented or whatever.

Look, the guy earlier in the post specifically said he hasn't even played recently and is quitting exactly because of this dramatic overreaction. That was and is my concern, and this only confirms it. To then pretend that overreaction is somehow based in concern for playerbase or general goodwill is nonsensical. The behaviors are either ignorantly or calculatedly destructive to playerbase. I am tired of people spewing doom and gloom and implying or straight saying that the devs disrespect their players, then attempting to claim some community moral high ground. So I will continue to object to such nonsense. That's my critical feedback about the feedback (so meta). There are no stainless-steel white knights here; hyperbolic overreaction is clearly and demonstrably causing player casualties, so if that is the real concern of the most vocal critics, they need to sincerely consider a bit more moderation in how they emote about 2.0. And if, particularly in the face of comments like the above, they don't moderate their rhetoric a bit, then it's kind of hard (for me) to take their position as caring about playerbase as genuine and earnest.

EDIT: LETTERS

 

[Az14el]

can agree that OP attitude (some other names & threads definitely spring to mind) really isn't the way to communicate your problems for sure, so can't fault what you're saying it is pretty much relevant here. but it is just more 'emote'ing basically, other than obi I've seen like two other melodramatic 'im out' type threads since the dock came back up, it's not exactly a trend even for our current low population, its just loud & public, and less harmful than actively censoring peoples distaste with the game, that'd be the only other alternative and gee doesn't that go well with indie games. The forum rules have already changed to be a lot less 'shitpost friendly', and last i heard is scheduled to get a bit stricter again, so a lot more raw negativity should fall under the moderating guidelines anyway. Like it'd probably be more effective to just report what you think is harmful here than fuel whats basically their discussion, though i'd imagine rules are still somewhat lax compared what SMD staff actually want for the site now.

It's a long winded way of saying live & let live for at least a hotfix or so, there's a lot of that 'emoting' going on and it probably wont change until we at least have the basics for online play functional & reliable again (scanning, inhibition, AI targetting all still mostly/entirely nonfunctional, integrity system still very subject to change)

Same goes to OP & some others too of course, I just don't have anything posted quite so recent by them handy to nitpick at so it'd feel awkward :u

 

[YamiHikari]

for what its worth, a lot of us havn't even "left" and never planned too, there's like a handful of people making dramatic exit threads for a variety of (sometimes pretty laughable) reasons and some maybe reading a bit much into that as some kind of "pvper movement", for whatever reason. Of those that really have moved on, not many really have seemed to care enough to mention it.

That said, no 2.0 patch so far has really been worth my time to play online much, because 1; i can't find people with half working scanning systems (still no navigation data feed) 2; i can't build how i want (a lot of decorative/exposed systems and relatively compact/utilitarian guts, look in my CC for an idea), 3; i can't shoot people (or anybodys 2.0 creations for that matter, AI is just broken against anything with new systems in online play as of .334), let alone stop them from just jumping away, beyond building a ship, mining endlessly, and fighting a bunch of isanths, there's pretty much nothing to do that isn't hampered by bugs or broken mechanics.

So myself, probably a lot of other "bitter vets", just dont really have much to do in the current patch beyond figure out what just doesn't work & be disappointed about it. Which didn't take long for a lot of people.

I get how you feel, Az14el. There are a bunch of frustrating things in this new update. It was definitely released too early. Really, I don't, nor should anyone else, really have a problem with the fact that you're putting up Starmade right now to play other games. We are at a point of stasis right now due to the buggy update and the current transition to Weapons and Universe 2.0. So long as you report the bugs you come across in-game and help out when the opportunity arises, nobody has any reason to complain. There WILL be people who stay and continue playing, testing out as many situations as they can and coming across lots of bugs. These people are valuable because they help speed up the game's progress. I also agree that the whole "movement" thing is a bit overhyped. There really are not a lot of people moving against this update as an end-of-the-world kind of thing anymore. I've actually seen some of the most vocal Power 2.o haters from before the bonus update do a complete 360 and say that there is hope for this game. These bugs will be fixed, and things should get better with time.

It's not about the discourse on 2.0. It's about citing discontent as a defense for hyperbole. Saying we see problems is a far... far different thing from saying things like the devs don't care or the game is dead on account of a change that upsets you.

I understand the extreme comments that are being made feel really toxic, but you can't exactly talk about these outbursts as if it's a significant amount of people. From what I've seen, I can pretty much count the number of people who've pronounced Starmade dead post-bonus on one, maaaaybe two, hands. We are seeing an exodus, but several people have already stated that this happens at the time of most Starmade updates. People will continue returning for short periods of time after each update to check on the game. The people who decide to leave aren't definitively leaving for good. Many of them will come back. The update has a lot of annoyances, but the game is not dead.

 

[Nauvran]

You are absolutely right. My bad.
For some reason I thought that the discussion was about Mod Bias against vets is what was causing them to leave.

My apologies for going off topic. If you guys want me to, I'll delete my post.

Why the hell is it so awful to go a bit off topic? It's completely normal for a discussion to derail a bit. If a thread goes too offtopic you tell people to direct back to the original topic, you dont just go around deleting everyones posts, thats how you ruin a forum and a discussion.

 

[YamiHikari]

Why the hell is it so awful to go a bit off topic? It's completely normal for a discussion to derail a bit. If a thread goes too offtopic you tell people to direct back to the original topic, you dont just go around deleting everyones posts, thats how you ruin a forum and a discussion.

The general consensus that I've seen so far is that derailment is normal, but the discussion should always be brought back before straying too far. DukeofRealms also expressed some discontent over deleting derailment posts instead of just collapsing them in some way.

 

[Mered4]

The general consensus that I've seen so far is that derailment is normal, but the discussion should always be brought back before straying too far. DukeofRealms also expressed some discontent over deleting derailment posts instead of just collapsing them in some way.

Most forums or reddits I frequent let the discussion progress naturally regardless, and they've got derailment rules. They take issue if someone barges in and starts immediately screaming about off topic shit.
But this shit? Ffs, literally the worst moderation of all time. The mods look like tyrants ruling over a tennis match

Also, who the hell actually believes most people are leaving without objective analysis of the problem? I can show you guys pages of discussion on TCNs discord, and I've only been there a month or so. So mind boggling that people are willing to dismiss a view that is in conflict with theirs as illogical with little regard for their perspective.

 

[kulbolen]

Also, who the hell actually believes most people are leaving without objective analysis of the problem? I can show you guys pages of discussion on TCNs discord, and I've only been there a month or so. So mind boggling that people are willing to dismiss a view that is in conflict with theirs as illogical with little regard for their perspective.

i can count on less hands the number of people defending the update than i can the people criticising it. i can count on more hands the number of people i met playing starmade then the number of people currently playing starmade.

 

[jstenholt]

So, I forgot to check the forum for like, 30 hours and this thread as effectively gotten away from me. But let me end by saying I really like the direction Power 2.0 is going, I do not like Power 2.0 in it current iteration, I have seen enough progress from Power 2.0's original release to be confident that the system will be changed for the better, some of you people really don't know what alpha means or what playing a game in alpha entitles you to, and if this game created this much drama in such a short period of time with such a small base imagine how much like a middle school this place will be when we reach beta.

 

[Mered4]

So, I forgot to check the forum for like, 30 hours and this thread as effectively gotten away from me. But let me end by saying I really like the direction Power 2.0 is going, I do not like Power 2.0 in it current iteration, I have seen enough progress from Power 2.0's original release to be confident that the system will be changed for the better, some of you people really don't know what alpha means or what playing a game in alpha entitles you to, and if this game created this much drama in such a short period of time with such a small base imagine how much like a middle school this place will be when we reach beta.

"You don't know what alpha means"
I would contend that Schine doesn't know what alpha means. We're here as testers for their game, and we would like to have some fun doing it. This argument is really baseless at this point.
You can't refute our opinions rationally, so you try to dismantle our pretenses.

Seriously, at least try. This isn't even difficult.

 

[jstenholt]

"You don't know what alpha means"
I would contend that Schine doesn't know what alpha means. We're here as testers for their game, and we would like to have some fun doing it. This argument is really baseless at this point.
You can't refute our opinions rationally, so you try to dismantle our pretenses.

Seriously, at least try. This isn't even difficult.

I literally don't have to; fun is not guaranteed, nothing is guaranteed, if you don't like being a test dummy or cannot figure out a way to have fun with the game in its current state, voice your concern, don't pretend you've been completely ignored (because you haven't) and either A: move on and play another game for awhile or B: don't. It is in alpha, is the argument at the core of literally all of this and every facet of this debate, so if you don't like it, Oops.

I think for me, the worst thing is the dissonance in the complaints. Why are you all complaining so loud about being ignored if you're just being ignored; do you just enjoy screaming into the void? Is this therapeutic for you guys?

 

[Mered4]

I literally don't have to; fun is not guaranteed, nothing is guaranteed, if you don't like being a test dummy or cannot figure out a way to have fun with the game in its current state, voice your concern, don't pretend you've been completely ignored (because you haven't) and either A: move on and play another game for awhile or B: don't. It is in alpha, is the argument at the core of literally all of this and every facet of this debate, so if you don't like it, Oops.

I think for me, the worst thing is the dissonance in the complaints. Why are you all complaining so loud about being ignored if you're just being ignored; do you just enjoy screaming into the void? Is this therapeutic for you guys?

Amazing.
Everything you just said is wrong.

We HAVE been ignored. Lancake literally spent three posts earlier today trying to explain to some guy what he was missing with the new system. To no ones surprise, his own knowledge of ship systems was LEAGUES behind that of an experienced PVPer like Non

If our concerns had not been ignored, this system would never have made it past the drawing board. It doesn't even work without an insane amount of artificial limits and menu sliders.

Seriously man. You aren't even trying.

I've been here for six YEARS. This isn't my first rodeo with Schema's forced distancing from the community.

 

[Bladeriker]

It seems this argument boils down to; What the PvP-Meta wanted to see happen, and what the average player wanted to see.

As it stands now 100% of all past ships have to undergo complete overhauls of everything. With the upcoming weapons changes, even those refits are on hold. So what happens? The casual PvE designer/player makes shells and has fun building, where as the hard-core PvP player is stuck doing next to nothing, as their current BiS ship amounts to a glorious heap of scrap.

Power 2.0, gave ship builders/designers new tools to make even better and more interesting ships. Yes there are some issues that are being ironed out even not (Integrity, Stabilization..etc.), but SM is still in Alpha, and these kinds of massive changes are to be expected. The Devs are not required to listen to anything the players have to say regarding the development of the game, or where the creator wants to take it. This is a fact of life.

So if the OP wants to move on, then by all means move on, there is nothing anyone here could say or do to change the OP's mind. However, power 2.0 is not the death knell of SM, many of the added features, and UI tweaks have made even the refitting easier than before. Power was not the only change, Shields and Thrust were altered too, there are things we as ship builders can do now that we could not do before.

 

[kulbolen]

It seems this argument boils down to; What the PvP-Meta wanted to see happen, and what the average player wanted to see.

As it stands now 100% of all past ships have to undergo complete overhauls of everything. With the upcoming weapons changes, even those refits are on hold. So what happens? The casual PvE designer/player makes shells and has fun building, where as the hard-core PvP player is stuck doing next to nothing, as their current BiS ship amounts to a glorious heap of scrap.

Power 2.0, gave ship builders/designers new tools to make even better and more interesting ships. Yes there are some issues that are being ironed out even not (Integrity, Stabilization..etc.), but SM is still in Alpha, and these kinds of massive changes are to be expected. The Devs are not required to listen to anything the players have to say regarding the development of the game, or where the creator wants to take it. This is a fact of life.

So if the OP wants to move on, then by all means move on, there is nothing anyone here could say or do to change the OP's mind. However, power 2.0 is not the death knell of SM, many of the added features, and UI tweaks have made even the refitting easier than before. Power was not the only change, Shields and Thrust were altered too, there are things we as ship builders can do now that we could not do before.

yet again: the new system isnt just "a change" thats bothering stubborn old pvpers, its a change that drastically reduces the games depth, with features that simply dont work.

the old stubborn pvpers have already figured out and exploited the new system. its not a matter of having to relearn; it was stupidly simple.

youre right, theres no reason to build combat ships till the weapon update, since most of combat is broken right now. its not a matter of refits so much as theres just nothing to do for people who enjoy using what they build more than building. some of us tried it, but theres no one left who can actually fight back, and pvp is the epitome of a pubstomp now where 99% of the server (*edit: the ONE populated server*) loses to a single unoptimized 500 mass jumper.

 

[NTIMESc]

I would contend that Schine doesn't know what alpha means.

Schine's alleged ignorance does not preclude your own.

If our concerns had not been ignored, this system would never have made it past the drawing board.

There are many reasons why this system could have made it past the drawing board despite your concerns being heard. One possibility is they simply didn't agree with what they heard. Another could be that the solutions presented ignored limits of the engine architecture. Etc, etc.

the old stubborn pvpers have already figured out and exploited the new system.

This is fantastic news! I'm looking forward to reading about all the exploit fixes in the next update notes!