A Solution To Flying Spaghetti Monsters

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    efficiency drop off is very rapid in 2.0 rapid and over a small physical range . it is also easy to 'see' the drop due to the HUD graphics. Therefore I assume hardly anybody will build a reactor which is so obviously inefficient, unless they are trying to re-fit a pretty hull.
    [doublepost=1508490430,1508490225][/doublepost]also: adding an 'inefficient block' in 1.0 (unless it cross-links/short-curcuits 2 separate strands) still increases power by small amounts, whereas inefficient blocks in in 2.0 drop whole power output.
     

    Lancake

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    True, you can still place them where ever.
    However I still feel it is forced, as no one is going to place stabilizors in low effciencey zones when trying to build a remotly compedative ship. There is no reason anyone would ever do that except to shoot themselves in the foot. You just have to build around it.
    While that would give you the most efficient on paper, that does not mean it will be just as good in combat. Adding armor blocks will always make your ship less efficient on paper, it costs more and it reduces your thrust:mass ratio. Whether armor is strong or weak, does not matter in this case since it will always reduce weapon damage in some way which could be the difference between life and death.

    A simple example with the new power system could be that the reactor is explosive unless you have 100% stabilization. If you go for the most efficient configuration (cheap, lightweight for a given power regeneration). You would end up with stabilizers at one end of the ship at exactly the same amount of reactor blocks (1 : 1 ratio or else it would be a waste).

    Depending on game mechanics, putting both your reactor and stabilizers at the extremities of your ship, it could mean that at least one group suffers combat damage rather quickly in comparison. If you put your stabilizers in a spot that will most likely get hit, you will instantly go below 100% reactor efficiency as soon as you start losing those blocks, only making your reactor explosive again and resulting in a ship that will go downhill fast.
    Ideally, you would make your stabilizer group big enough, or make multiple groups, to make sure you don't go below 100% efficiency immediately. That though, adds more cost and mass to your ship.

    I do not dismiss the issues that people brought up though, such as the 2 part ships with a large distance in between and the spaghetti ships OP brought up (which is also an issue in the old power system as he mentioned).

    Just pointing out that the most efficient ship is not always the best one. Or at least, it shouldn't.
    [doublepost=1508492880,1508492377][/doublepost]
    efficiency drop off is very rapid in 2.0 rapid and over a small physical range . it is also easy to 'see' the drop due to the HUD graphics. Therefore I assume hardly anybody will build a reactor which is so obviously inefficient, unless they are trying to re-fit a pretty hull.
    [doublepost=1508490430,1508490225][/doublepost]also: adding an 'inefficient block' in 1.0 (unless it cross-links/short-curcuits 2 separate strands) still increases power by small amounts, whereas inefficient blocks in in 2.0 drop whole power output.
    I agree, the current config and regeneration calculation really encourages you to not build them in lower efficiency zones, it's one of the critiques we noted down that were brought up before.

    The efficiency drop can be changed by just changing 2 config values so it shouldn't be too hard to find a good zone, we could even allow you to put them at 10-20% optimal distance at 5% efficiency or so. While it would never be done, it still makes the transition smoother and encourage people to at least build them at 50% efficiency.

    The regen calculation based on power blocks and stabilizers, is also abrupt and you either get full power from the next block, or none. We can make this a smooth transition too so that you still get some regeneration per extra block. Again, unlikely that the majority would do this but it could definitely be useful for small ships if you don't want to care about stabilizer groups. Of course the whole reactor would be explosive when not at 100% stabilization but that could be easily dismissed if the ship is small and cheap, they're rather vulnerable anyway.
     
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    Just pointing out that the most efficient ship is not always the best one. Or at least, it shouldn't.
    Is this some kind of inside joke within Schine or do you unironicly believe that the ships that make the best use of power, weapons, logic etc etc are "Not always the best"

    Anyone who has a clue about this game can say without reasonable doubt that absolutely none of the Meta ships for 2.0 will ever not have 100% efficient reactors unless it is either exploit powered or making use of an unbalanced feature that is going to be patched out.

    If you believe otherwise then I encourage you to join the ARES mod server with one of your "non-max efficiency" ships that would supposedly do better.

    73.159.93.208:4242

    I will wait.
     
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    The efficiency drop can be changed by just changing 2 config values
    Does this allow for a "sweet zone" configuration, where efficiency would also drop when the distance is too great, not only when it's too close?
    I didn't follow your "alternative power config" thread too closely, but my quick impression was that it simply did away with all distance related calculations?

    The regen calculation based on power blocks and stabilizers, is also abrupt and you either get full power from the next block, or none. We can make this a smooth transition too so that you still get some regeneration per extra block.
    Yes, please. This "all or nothing" cutoff just feels weird.
     
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    The regen calculation based on power blocks and stabilizers, is also abrupt and you either get full power from the next block, or none. We can make this a smooth transition too so that you still get some regeneration per extra block.
    I've been telling people complaining about being "forced" to put their stabilisers at optimal distance to just move them closer at a lower efficiency, and have more of them, to shorten their ships.

    I just tested this in game so I would have some numbers to back myself up, but my thinking has moved a bit more towards their way of thinking - because stabiliser regen per block drops to zero, the possible (minimum) range for stabilisers is quite limited.

    For example, testing a 9^3 block reactor, I was only able to drop the total length of a ship by about 25% by making my stabilisers less efficient and more numerous (for the same total power output). From that and some other sizes I tested I can give a rule of thumb (note results will vary a bit depending on specific geometry - if anyone wants to know what parameters I used, pm me): currently, by making your stabilisers inefficient, while keeping power output at the reactors maximum, you can reduce your ship length to around 75%-80% of the length of a ship with perfectly efficient reactors, and the reactor+stabiliser mass will approximately double.

    That feels a bit harsh to me, and almost (but not quite) justified in being labelled "forced"...

    So I logged on to suggest exactly what Lancake just mentioned: stabiliser efficiency shouldn't drop to 0% at a minimum distance - it should still give a small amount (say 5%? 10%? Don't know... ) all the way to the reactor. It won't be meta, and there'll be a bit more freedom in placing stabilisers.

    Combined with point #1 from the OP of this thread, stabiliser efficiency over distance from the reactor should look something roughly like this:

    redgreen.png
    [doublepost=1508502158,1508501994][/doublepost]
    Is this some kind of inside joke within Schine or do you unironicly believe that the ships that make the best use of power, weapons, logic etc etc are "Not always the best"
    He was talking specifically and only about power efficiency. I'm sure you'd agree it's possible to design a ship that has maximum power efficiency but is otherwise terrible.
     
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    He was talking specifically and only about power efficiency. I'm sure you'd agree it's possible to design a ship that has maximum power efficiency but is otherwise terrible.
    When the lead dev says "most efficient ship" without specifying power then he is probably talking about the ship, not power, unless of course the dev who said that is willing to correct that statement.
     
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    When the lead dev says "most efficient ship" without specifying power then he is probably talking about the ship, not power, unless of course the dev who said that is willing to correct that statement.
    My car with a little 1.8 litre engine is more efficient than your 5 litre V8, but yours will outperform mine every time... ;)
     
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    My car with a little 1.8 litre engine is more efficient than your 5 litre V8, but yours will outperform mine every time... ;)
    You seem to misunderstand, let give you an example.

    If my ship can do its role better then yours using less blocks then mine is more efficient then yours.
     

    Edymnion

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    Go take your "grr pvp grr" splurge elsewhere, we are discussing means of getting rid of the very "Min-maxxing" that you cleary despise in every form.
    Ah yes, gotta love the hypocrisy here.

    Well, Mr. Community Mentor, lets explains something to you. If everyone else gets to whine and cry about stabilizers being the devil left and right and claim its "voicing feedback" when they're doing nothing but belly aching, then you don't get to complain when I do the same thing about PvP.

    Issue A, Issue B. Especially now that someone gave you a shiny namebadge, you don't get to have that kind of discriminatory stance anymore.

    If you want me to be quiet about how out of control PvP is hurting the game, then you better be riding everybody's ass equally much about "Just state you don't like stabilizers one time, then don't bring it up ever again".

    Especially not after you trolled my last "How can we fix PvP?" thread into the ground instead of letting people actually discuss it.
     
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    Az14el

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    Economy vs Throughput is a good point, but minimizing mass as much as possible relative to your power output, and of course still actually using said power, is kind of the key trope of good PvP ships, systems good, mass bad (and expensive). I wouldn't race his v8 in a 1.8l, I'd use a Tesla.

    I mean i figured he just meant that a min/maxed pvp cloud probably isn't a great salvager but then i've kinda tuned out by this point

    also not sure a mechanic that isn't finalized is the same as the preferred playstyle of other community members, not that some words typed into the forums is going to stop us PvPing, that would be silly. But then we can be silly enough to dignify such talk with a response sometimes, woops
     
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    jorgekorke

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    I mean minimum number of blocks for the power you were producing (just like power 2.0 - you can keep adding blocks until you get the power output you want, regardless of efficiency)
    There's some good info here: Power Systems - StarMade Wiki

    Most power 1.0 ships don't have perfect efficiency, not even high performance PvP ships (caveat: I am making an assumption on that last bit, haven't actually checked, anyone who knows offhand please inform the rest of us)
    Careful with those assumptions because this is misinformation. I can tell by experience that even the most mediocre players do use XYZ instead of simple lines, and reach close to perfection goals in power regen.

    You could argue about auxes thought, because not everyone knew the exploit to minimize/nullifying the explosions when damaged, but I guess this is not the point here, since this is a exploit, a not-intended feature.
     
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    Lancake

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    Does this allow for a "sweet zone" configuration, where efficiency would also drop when the distance is too great, not only when it's too close?
    No it doesn't allow for that. A minimum distance only, or a sweet spot would work exactly the same as both scale with reactor size. Stabilizers that are "too far" for a certain sweet spot, can be resolved by increasing reactor size.
    [doublepost=1508523026,1508522309][/doublepost]
    You seem to misunderstand, let give you an example.

    If my ship can do its role better then yours using less blocks then mine is more efficient then yours.
    And if you have 2 identical ships when it comes to block count, they have the same efficiency. As efficiency can only be seen on paper, when looking at the statistics.

    Yet if the 1st ship has all of its power related blocks at the front...
    and the 2nd ship has shields placed there instead, with its power at the back, in places less likely to be hit.

    Then both examples would not perform the same in the exact same combat situation.

    Perhaps throwing in some numbers will help too

    A 1000 block line can give the same power as a 10 000 block dense group. Obviously the 1000 block line is 10 times more efficient.
    But if a single block in that line gets destroyed, your regeneration is cut in half.
    If a few blocks in that 10 000 block dense group are destroyed, your regeneration is barely affected at all.
    Destroy a few more blocks in that line and your regen is pretty much gone and that inefficient ship will still swim in regeneration relative to the line one.
     
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    Depending on game mechanics, putting both your reactor and stabilizers at the extremities of your ship, it could mean that at least one group suffers combat damage rather quickly in comparison. If you put your stabilizers in a spot that will most likely get hit, you will instantly go below 100% reactor efficiency as soon as you start losing those blocks, only making your reactor explosive again and resulting in a ship that will go downhill fast.
    Ideally, you would make your stabilizer group big enough, or make multiple groups, to make sure you don't go below 100% efficiency immediately. That though, adds more cost and mass to your ship.
    Sorry i build vertical ships and i barrell roll every time someone try to shoot the tips of the ship i'm flying.

    Hmm, this is a very good point. I'll have to think on how to fix this. Anyone have any suggestions for how to fix using systems as conduits to avoid distance debuffs?
    Something using convex hull might be the key. As long as the penalties are not too harsh to allow to build in any shape.
     
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    Ah yes, gotta love the hypocrisy here.

    Well, Mr. Community Mentor, lets explains something to you. If everyone else gets to whine and cry about stabilizers being the devil left and right and claim its "voicing feedback" when they're doing nothing but belly aching, then you don't get to complain when I do the same thing about PvP.

    Issue A, Issue B. Especially now that someone gave you a shiny namebadge, you don't get to have that kind of discriminatory stance anymore.

    If you want me to be quiet about how out of control PvP is hurting the game, then you better be riding everybody's ass equally much about "Just state you don't like stabilizers one time, then don't bring it up ever again".

    Especially not after you trolled my last "How can we fix PvP?" thread into the ground instead of letting people actually discuss it.
    Jesus Christ dude. The PvP community knows SM combat better than anyone else, especially him. Why do you think he was nominated for community mentor?

    If you don't have anything helpful to add to this thread, then bug off.
     
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    Careful with those assumptions because this is misinformation. I can tell by experience that even the most mediocre players do use XYZ instead of simple lines, and reach close to perfection goals in power regen.
    Of course they do. But simply using XYZ reactors isn't enough to guarantee maximum efficiency.
     

    jorgekorke

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    Of course they do. But simply using XYZ reactors isn't enough to guarantee maximum efficiency.
    It is.

    Unless my memory is failing, a 4X 4Y 4Z line will supply almost the same as a 6X 3Y 3Z. The benefits of a cubic shape gets smaller the big the vessel is.
     
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    No, it isn't. I mean maximum efficiency (power per block), not just best efficiency for certain parameters/configurations. I suggest you look at the link I posted previously and refresh your memory.
     
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    And if you have 2 identical ships when it comes to block count, they have the same efficiency. As efficiency can only be seen on paper, when looking at the statistics.

    If I have a 10k block ship that makes better use of said 10k blocks to have better power, more shields etc etc and you have a 10k ship that doesn't make good use of 10k blocks as my own then my ship is more efficienct then yours, even though they have the same blockcount.

    A 1000 block line can give the same power as a 10 000 block dense group. Obviously the 1000 block line is 10 times more efficient.
    But if a single block in that line gets destroyed, your regeneration is cut in half.
    If a few blocks in that 10 000 block dense group are destroyed, your regeneration is barely affected at all.
    If I use a 1000 block line then I have more space avaliable for other systems such as shields, thrust and/or weapons. Your 10k block group sure may not loose too much efficiency when it gets hit but my ship will not have its shields dropped in the first place because your ship has less shields and weapons because it was all taken up by this 10k brick of power (assuming both ships in question are similar sized)

    Well, Mr. Community Mentor, lets explains something to you. If everyone else gets to whine and cry about stabilizers being the devil left and right and claim its "voicing feedback" when they're doing nothing but belly aching
    Here is what you need to understand. This is a thread to give feedback about a current flawed design with the game and are proposing solutions to fix this flawed design, you are coming onto this thread and hijacking it and inserting your "I hate PvP and everyone who PvPs is bad and should feel bad" agenda into your useless post that contributes nothing to this thread.

    If you still have your fueled hatred for all things PvP then good for you, but don't hijack threads just to insert your agenda, go make your own thread.

    then you don't get to complain when I do the same thing about PvP.
    The difference between this discussion and your "Grr PvP Grr" splurge is that your points have been proven time and time again to be invalid and you are hijacking this thread to promote your agenda and disrupting actual discussion on balance.

    If you or anyone else makes a stupid post about PvP, especialy when said person has absolutely zero idea what they are even talking about to begin with then I will say "This response/thread is stupid and here is why...." whenever you like it or not, this is what the forums are for, voicing proper, constructive criticism. None of your "Grr PvP" posts have been constructive in any way and if anything have been personal attacks against any and all who enjoy PvP.

    If you want me to be quiet about how out of control PvP is hurting the game
    PvP is not hurting the game, you have tried to promote this "PvP is the reason for all things bad in Starmade" narrative time and time again and you have been shut down by the community time and time again, don't start this again on a thread that has nothing to do with it, you will loose.

    "Just state you don't like stabilizers one time, then don't bring it up ever again".
    This is the first time flying spaghetti monsters have been brough up recently, your "Grr PvP Grr" narative on the other hand.....

    Especially not after you trolled my last "How can we fix PvP?" thread into the ground instead of letting people actually discuss it.
    People did discuss it, PvPers also discussed it, it just so happened that people told you that you were wrong in said discussion and you didnt take that too well.

    No, it isn't. I mean maximum efficiency (power per block), not just best efficiency for certain parameters/configurations. I suggest you look at the link I posted previously and refresh your memory.
    Long lines up to 2m e/s on the X, Y and/or Z axis is generaly agreed to be the most ideal for maximum efficiency.

    efficiency drop off is very rapid in 2.0 rapid and over a small physical range . it is also easy to 'see' the drop due to the HUD graphics. Therefore I assume hardly anybody will build a reactor which is so obviously inefficient, unless they are trying to re-fit a pretty hull.
    Fukin this

    Nobody is going to build a non-efficient reactor unless they are intentionally crippling their ship for whatever reason or they don't care because "muh rp"
     
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    Here is what you need to understand. This is a thread to give feedback about a current flawed design with the game and are proposing solutions to fix this flawed design, ...
    Actually this thread is to discuss Lecic's rather excellent suggestion in the OP. There are many other threads for more general discussion of power 2.0




    Nobody is going to build a non-efficient reactor unless they are intentionally crippling their ship for whatever reason or they don't care because "muh rp"
    An inefficient reactor can still have the same power output as an efficient one. What it does is reduces ship length at the cost of increasing of increasing stabiliser mass.
    So it certainly may be a viable technique for someone looking to reduce ship length.

    In fact it may even be the case that for certain geometry and configurations that the smaller hull resulting from the shorter length means that total ship mass can go down by reducing stabiliser efficiency.
     
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    Actually this thread is to discuss Lecic's rather excellent suggestion in the OP. There are many other threads for more general discussion of power 2.0
    That is exactly what I meant when I said "flawed design"

    Spaghetti monsters are possible thanks to flawed design, they should not be.