Making life more complicated

[Plisko]

I played A LOT of Minecraft and I loved building and designing but I HATED that it forced me to learn how to be a redstone engineer if I wanted the simplest things like a drawbridge or a large door. To me this is not entertainment.

Now I'm playing a lot of StarMade and I love it with the same obsession but here we are again. If I want something simple like an elevator or a automatic door I need to go to engineering school and build deliberate spaces in my designs to hold "circuity" the size of hay bales. I just tried to watch a logic tutorial to build an elevator and it made my head explode. The transporter is looking really good right now. I know this game is built by engineers and enjoyed by engineers but there are artists here too and some artists are ok with basic visual mechanics like connection A to B or designing rail layouts but they have a really hard time with left brain stuff like not gates and flip flops.

Don't get me wrong. I think bringing logic into video gaming is an amazing thing. It's making people smarter all over the world. I think it should be available to people and they should be free to make all kinds of complicated and wonderful things. I also want to slowly work my way into basic logic creations in my own time. . . I wish it wasn't a REQUIRED skill the moment a ship needs the simplest thing like running lights or an airlock.

I wish there were some blocks that made limited versions things possible with some basic connections to rails and rail entities. For example: an elevator computer that goes in the elevator and nameable elevator modules with buttons on them that go on the floors and trigger doors when the elevator arrives or leaves. Activate the elevator computer to choose a floor. It's such a simple thing that has been made unnecessarily complex for no apparent reason since we aren't also being asked to design rocket control circuitry before our ship will fly. Controls for doors and hanger bay doors are also unnecessarily complex for something so common. It's not designing the basic mechanical layouts that hangs me up as much as the control circuits to make it all work correctly and glitch free.

Like I said, I don't hate that logic is here. I just hate that I need to know it for basic necessities. . . and not just building them, maintaining them. Templates are great but they immediately put me in over my head with maintaining them. One accidentally deleted block or activate state in an elevator system and I have no idea how to troubleshoot what I did. If I do the same thing with, say, a weapons system, it is much easier to fix by reconnecting.

That's just my thoughts on the matter. I know people are in love with the concept. I don't really hold that against anyone. I'm just trying to put a word in for the right brained people who find it to be more hassle than fun.

 

[ZombieMouse]

Plex lifts? Or don't those work any more (not used them in ages)?

Personally, We're opting for transporters over lifts just to save on lag. I totally love the logic system in the game and think it's well worth the time to learn, and and my friends and I have made some cool stuff with it. But, if you don't like logic, plex lifts, plex doors with buttons attached and transporters should have the basics covered I think.

For example, I thought it was cool when I saw someone build a ship with landing gear, but instead of rail rotators and separate entities and all that, he just built it all out of plex doors. Simple, but effective.

 

[kiddan]

Watch Bench's Starmade tutorials on Youtube. Moving contraptions are way easier to make in Starmade than Minecraft. = )

 

[NaStral]

Elevators are more for showing off than function. Transporters or hot swapping between docked objects is far faster and less messy.

 

[Jaaskinal]

And I want to make a ship that can beat anyone with no effort, I don't even want to learn how to system stuff.

You don't get the rewards of knowledge without the knowledge itself.

 

[Plisko]

And I want to make a ship that can beat anyone with no effort, I don't even want to learn how to system stuff.

You don't get the rewards of knowledge without the knowledge itself.

I'm not sure how having an elevator or running lights gives ships the ability to beat people unless the most fancy elevator is the end game goal. The stuff that "beats" people ship to ship is actually far easier to make or download.

I will repeat that I have no problem with logic, or even engineering. Sometimes, I just don't want to hassle with going so deep into those details to accomplish things, though. I am an AV technician in my profession. I loved the Direwolf20 modpack for Minecraft with all it's complex technical mods requiring me to run power ducts and cooling pipes and manage in and out flows. There is much to be learned from those implementations. Those mods were a FAR superior engineering experience for me than troubleshooting primitive circuitry. Maybe it's also the RP offense of it. Here I am building a space ship from scratch and I don't need to run one power duct or cooling system and all my weapons and support systems are very simple to hook up. . . but I need an engineering room full of circuits and a degree from an electronics school to make an elevator. It seems like a weird way to set up a tech tier and, like it or not, that's kind of what it is.

Also, the way it is done is not scifi. It is more like ham radio or computer technology before silicone chips. Bulky, temperamental and easily bugged or broken because we're walking around in it clicking other things around it with a jumpy cursor. Did you know that "bugs" in a computer used to be ACTUAL bugs because computers were so big they got cockroaches like houses? We need the equivalent of silicone: logic housings that house the circuits people design in a tradeable block that connects to other blocks and has a GUI to control the routing. That gives us the best of both: People that love going deep into it can be the hardware designers and others can use their creations as turn key options that are compact and easy to manage. It would be custom made computers and modules traded on the dock. . . and THAT would be an awesome feature. That is much more futuristic and RP than a giant Rube Goldberg contraption that takes up a whole room just to make the space ship version of a pot of coffee.

 

[Plisko]

Elevators are more for showing off than function. Transporters or hot swapping between docked objects is far faster and less messy.

Agreed. Elevators are mostly RP and design functions. That's why I don't understand why it is so hard to make them. The same with airlocks and automatic doors. Logic should be the thing we are using to combine our ship systems in interesting ways. Not the way we create common systems themselves (unless we choose to because we figure out how to make it better somehow such as auto fire missiles or jump recharging)
[doublepost=1501530417,1501530115][/doublepost]

Plex lifts? Or don't those work any more (not used them in ages)?

Personally, We're opting for transporters over lifts just to save on lag. I totally love the logic system in the game and think it's well worth the time to learn, and and my friends and I have made some cool stuff with it. But, if you don't like logic, plex lifts, plex doors with buttons attached and transporters should have the basics covered I think.

For example, I thought it was cool when I saw someone build a ship with landing gear, but instead of rail rotators and separate entities and all that, he just built it all out of plex doors. Simple, but effective.

I agree that the logic is worth having and I don't mean to sound like I am not open to it. Yes there are plex and blast doors that can be triggered. I imagine force fields can too. Plex is definitely more flexible than doors in Minecraft. I am also a fan of transporters but they seem better as a shortcut than a replacement for the RP walkthrough. There is something nice about being able to walk around while the ship is flying somewhere.
[doublepost=1501530643][/doublepost]

Watch Bench's Starmade tutorials on Youtube. Moving contraptions are way easier to make in Starmade than Minecraft. = )

Yes I found Bench and Gmodism and I will, of course, do my best to learn. It was Gmodism's elevator tutorial that made me annoyed at how complicated it is both to build and explain. . . and that is actually what inspired this thread.

 

[Daeridanii]

Ok, may as well add my two cents.

If I want something simple like an elevator or a automatic door I need to go to engineering school and build deliberate spaces in my designs to hold "circuity" the size of hay bales.

As Starmade logic devices go, both simple elevators and automatic doors are relatively simple, requiring only a few logic blocks. While the size of these logic clusters may be significant as compared to our player characters, it is most likely insignificant compared to the size of the greater ship on which this logic is mounted, and the logic clusters can simply be put in a small area beside, or even entire ship-lengths away from the device, out of sight and mind.
i.e. "simple" logic can be placed out of sight of anyone in the ship with negligible impact on performance.
While some people like to build logic "maintenance areas" in their builds, these too are generally small and not especially noticeable areas.

I wish there were some blocks that made limited versions things possible with some basic connections to rails and rail entities. For example: an elevator computer that goes in the elevator and nameable elevator modules with buttons on them that go on the floors and trigger doors when the elevator arrives or leaves.

This would simplify the making of 3+ floor elevators, I see two significant problems with it:

1. Starmade has a limited number of block IDs, and while suggestions have been made that would increase the number of block IDs available, these have not been adopted by Schine. As harsh as this may sound, adding new blocks that are mostly redundant wastes block IDs.
2. While adding an elevator block system would simplify the making of elevators, it would undoubtedly have limitations, as mentioned by yourself that the current logic/rail system does not. Newer players may think on seeing an "Elevator Block" that using that block is the "proper" way to make elevators, which stunts the growth and use of logic/rails in the long run.

Like I said, I don't hate that logic is here. I just hate that I need to know it for basic necessities...

Every crucial ship system such as shields, thrust, etc. does not require a knowledge of logic to use, improve, repair, or maintain. Ships with absolutely no logic on them can outperform ships loaded with it.

Maybe it's also the RP offense of it ... I need an engineering room full of circuits and a degree from an electronics school to make an elevator. ... Also, the way it is done is not scifi. It is more like ham radio or computer technology before silicone chips.

While the current method of logic, which uses full blocks for logic gates, etc, does not particularly represent the sleek, futuristic computer systems seen in sci-fi films, games and books, it is more tactile and easier to use for the player (imo). Also, please note my first quote response.
e.g. What if instead of full block logic, each logic system was shown as a logic diagram? Would that be easier for you, or for any other new player to learn?


My best advice to you is not to try to build a 20-story elevator, the (in)famous mechbird or a full shipboard computer system right off the bat. Starmade's logic system is powerful, but using it to its full potential takes a while to learn. Learn what each logic gate does, build yourself a pulsator, move up to a red alert mode lightswitch, eventually 2-story elevators. You're not going to learn how to make and troubleshoot your own fantastic logic contraptions by whacking yourself in the brain with community-made ones.

I wish you the best of luck on your logic adventures!

 

[Keptick]

Unfortunately the most I can do right now is point you to the appropriate resources. Thankfully logic isn't that hard to use once you get the hang of it, as unlike minecraft starmade uses proper logic gates (and not makeshift logic with redstone). In any case, if you want an automatic door here you go:

Automatic door logic

Hopefully this is what you were looking for. I made it really easy to use, so you should'nt have issues if you follow the instructions ^_^

 

[GalactusX]

Logic stuff, it's as difficult as you want it to be, I mean, if you want to press a button, and open a door, that does not require an engineering license.

The problem comes, when you want to do for example, that door after a time, be closed, or the door will not open if there is another one open, or if you want ... every time you add a new function or a new condition, the thing gets complicated exponentially.

I recommend that you start with the most basic logic stuff, when you already have a base, you can go to do more complicated things.

The forum / youtube is full of tutorials about starmade logic, how to do this or that ... but the main thing you should do is, ASK... maybe, the thing you want to do, or the problem you have, someone has already solved it .

And remember, there are no stupid questions, just stupid ones that do not ask.
For the rest, 1 build, 2 test, and if it fails, return to point 1

 

[bigmonmulgrew]

What I think sets Starmade apart here is that you can save schematics and templates and copy and pasted them, or swap them with other players. This means you dont need to know all the mechanics, you just need to wire up the output.

I've just returned to starmade andd I'm about to remake something that shoudl save you a lot of time.

I made a computer core, which is effectively a complicated circuit that lights up in sequence. I made multiple sizes, 16, 32 and 64 outputs.
This means instead of needing a complicated circuit a lot of the time you can connect things to different numbered outputs to activate things in sequence. It also means you only have one complicadted circuit to drive everythign on your ship/station. Just need to do some tweaking and i'll post a video explaing its usefullness and how its going to save you a lot of time and efforrt.

 

[Plisko]

Lots of good advice here. Thanks for the feedback.

I have been following tutorials and doing lots of building since I first posted this and I think I agree that the necessities of logic aren't too hard once you go through them. I've managed to pull off a few interesting things.

I think I agree that an elevator block specifically might be a waste if there is a limited amount of block ID's. I'm a little shocked to hear about this limitation, since this is a sandbox game that hopes to be expansive into the future and block ID's are sort of the definition of both of those.

Even so, however, I think a lot could be accomplished by adding a single block that is a container for logic circuits to help condense them. For example: the container could open a cargo like window where logic blocks can be placed on a grid. When you do this the blocks become icons on the grid in a logic schematic showing the blocks and their connections. The icons for the blocks in the schematic would be "live" so they can be removed, connected to each other, connected to blocks outside the container or in another container with C and V just like all blocks connect.

The container could also have a labeling system on the grid so you can actually identify what is what. The standard rail block would need to be useable in this grid and that might be tricky with the icon because of all it's positions. That might need some infographic magic to help it make sense. . . but I'm pretty sure the rest of the logic blocks are single position blocks and they would work in 2D. Now, a single block can represent endless combinations of things without taking up space and running connection lines all over. The blocks can also work with each other so one can be a controller and another can be a module or whatever. It's like system blocks but each one is a custom creation.

That seems like a pretty good use of a single block ID.

 

[Calhoun]

Schine have stated they have no plans on miniaturising logic.

 

[Plisko]

Schine have stated they have no plans on miniaturising logic.

Fortunately, they have stated that they plan to offer an API. . . so when developers decide not to do sensible things we can usually count on a modder to pick up the slack. Redstone mods in Minecraft are 100 times better than anything the developers planned for the mechanic. So if Schine isn't on board. . . I guess we just wait and see what others come up with.

 

[Valiant70]

I wish there were some blocks that made limited versions things possible with some basic connections to rails and rail entities. For example: an elevator computer that goes in the elevator and nameable elevator modules with buttons on them that go on the floors and trigger doors when the elevator arrives or leaves. Activate the elevator computer to choose a floor. It's such a simple thing that has been made unnecessarily complex for no apparent reason since we aren't also being asked to design rocket control circuitry before our ship will fly. Controls for doors and hanger bay doors are also unnecessarily complex for something so common. It's not designing the basic mechanical layouts that hangs me up as much as the control circuits to make it all work correctly and glitch free.

If Schine would cave in and implement complex logic on a single block, the community could come up with simple controllers to do stuff like you're asking for. How cool would that be? You could PM someone like me who loves that stuff and ask for a block that does XYZ, and I could send you a schematic. You could import the schematic, link a few buttons and rails to it, and you'd have a working elevator.
[doublepost=1504202175,1504201914][/doublepost]

Also, the way it is done is not scifi. It is more like ham radio or computer technology before silicone chips. Bulky, temperamental and easily bugged or broken because we're walking around in it clicking other things around it with a jumpy cursor. Did you know that "bugs" in a computer used to be ACTUAL bugs because computers were so big they got cockroaches like houses? We need the equivalent of silicone: logic housings that house the circuits people design in a tradeable block that connects to other blocks and has a GUI to control the routing. That gives us the best of both: People that love going deep into it can be the hardware designers and others can use their creations as turn key options that are compact and easy to manage. It would be custom made computers and modules traded on the dock. . . and THAT would be an awesome feature. That is much more futuristic and RP than a giant Rube Goldberg contraption that takes up a whole room just to make the space ship version of a pot of coffee.

And I wasn't the first to think that either. DukeofRealms ...Please? Schema's overhauling systems and weapons. Would you ask him about logic, too? Meter-scale logic gates are okay in Minecraft's setting, but this is sic-fi. We need a better way.

 

[Valiant70]

Logic System Rework

 

[Dr. Whammy]

Plisko,

It's good that you're making progress. Once you get a few basic fundamentals down, the rest kinda sorts itself out. Keep playing with it and you'll eventually surprise yourself. Learn from others if you can but never sell yourself short when you see the crazy contraptions other people have been making. This is about improving your knowledge; not obsessing over theirs.

Also, be sure to make use of completed logic templates in advanced build mode. That can come in handy sometimes.

 

[Plisko]

Plisko,

It's good that you're making progress. Once you get a few basic fundamentals down, the rest kinda sorts itself out. Keep playing with it and you'll eventually surprise yourself. Learn from others if you can but never sell yourself short when you see the crazy contraptions other people have been making. This is about improving your knowledge; not obsessing over theirs.

Also, be sure to make use of completed logic templates in advanced build mode. That can come in handy sometimes.

Thanks. Even as I learn it, however, I still feel myself circling around to the same size issue as I get more ambitious. For me personally these big chunky blocks break the immersion and suspension of disbelief. I don't feel like I have a soldering iron or microchips. I feel like I am stocking a warehouse with boxes. We're also not building draw bridges and arrow traps. We're building space ships and stations that advanced builders will naturally want to be cool and complex. Complex circuitry in this giant naked form is vulnerable to accidental clicks, let alone gunfire and missiles. It is a pain to troubleshoot and if you want to make neat things and still be able to make sense of the circuitry it takes a lot of space. . . which then makes it harder to improvise a ship as the ideas get bigger and bigger.

I don't want to second guess the developers. If they have really ruled it out, I'm just going to tell myself it is somehow unfeasible to do logic miniaturization with this game's engine because otherwise it feels like a very natural idea that goes even deeper into what this part of the game is all about.