The Importance of Planets

[Valiant70]

Planets will add the most to the game if they can be their own "world within a world" that has enough to do for players to base their experience literally around (or entirely on) a single planet if desired. With promises of flora and fauna systems, NPC populations, and (probably) larger planets, this sort of depth isn't really a stretch. This is highly desirable not only because of the appeal it has to the current player base, but because it adds a place for an entirely different batch of players.

What might this look like? Some things might include:

• Farming / ranching
• Managing a town
• Terraforming (or ecosystem conservation)
• Industry (styled totally different from space industry)
• Heck, even fishing.

How might industry be different? Geothermal power and deep core mining come to mind. Perhaps even engineering an entire ecosystem to live in mutualistic symbiosis with a factory of some sort, maintaining atmosphere temperature and composition for the good of both ecosystem and industry. Perhaps some plants/animals don't like artificial gravity and are healthier and/or more easily manipulated in their natural environment.

Most of this stuff has been suggested and discussed in one form or another multiple times already, but consider the sum total. It's a new experience, something that Starmade can only dream of right now. You could even call it "the other half of the game that hasn't been made yet." Can you just take all this planet stuff into space with you? Maybe most of it, but imagine fishing in an artificial pond on a starship. That's like golfing in an office. Planets provide a space and backdrop for things that don't go well in space, and have the potential to diversify gameplay beyond what we or the devs have considered thus far.

 

[Edymnion]

I agree that it would likely be for the best if we moved away from planets being objects in space made of blocks the way they are now. Get away from them being floating resource banks that are just really there to be eaten by giant sized miners. I think once we stopped that being a thing, we'd have a lot more freedom in perhaps having them be much more Minecraft in scale so that you could transition from space to planetary content without having to load chunks for the planet until you were actually there (at which point you would have unloaded the entire rest of the universe).

 

[Valiant70]

I agree that it would likely be for the best if we moved away from planets being objects in space made of blocks the way they are now. Get away from them being floating resource banks that are just really there to be eaten by giant sized miners. I think once we stopped that being a thing, we'd have a lot more freedom in perhaps having them be much more Minecraft in scale so that you could transition from space to planetary content without having to load chunks for the planet until you were actually there (at which point you would have unloaded the entire rest of the universe).

That might be going too far with the division between planets and space. The philosophy of making everything perfectly seamless (including weapons fire on and off planet) demands a solution that makes planets "things in space." However, that doesn't mean they have to stay the way they are now. The loading/unloading of chunks can be handled differently, and EVERYTHING shot at the planet doesn't have to reach the surface.

Being a microcosm doesn't mean the planet has to be mechanically cut off from space in any way - it just means it has to work smoothly, look nice, and have content.

 

[Edymnion]

That might be going too far with the division between planets and space. The philosophy of making everything perfectly seamless (including weapons fire on and off planet) demands a solution that makes planets "things in space." However, that doesn't mean they have to stay the way they are now. The loading/unloading of chunks can be handled differently, and EVERYTHING shot at the planet doesn't have to reach the surface.

Being a microcosm doesn't mean the planet has to be mechanically cut off from space in any way - it just means it has to work smoothly, look nice, and have content.

Eh, there are ways to hide the transition.

I don't wanna derail your thread on things to do with planets with "how to handle planets in general", so I'll split that off into another thread.

 

[DukeofRealms]

• Farming / ranching

• Managing a town

• Terraforming (or ecosystem conservation)

• Industry (styled totally different from space industry)

• Heck, even fishing.

StarMade is not a planet based game; it's a space game which happens to feature planets. None of these planet based mechanics are planned or will be planned; they heavily go against what this game is. StarMade is a game about ship to ship, astronaut to ship and faction interaction, planets are a useful mechanic for an additional backdrop (exploration) and potentially resource growth. We are investigating ways to have planets be a strategic (if not necessary) resource, other than simply an area where lots of blocks can be mined.

StarMade will always focus on ship interaction, and while astronaut gameplay can (and will) come into that, planet based mechanics like this play little to no role in contributing.

We see no reason to add mechanics that will not contribute to the current gameplay, what you're suggesting here is two gameplays existing in the same world.

How might industry be different? Geothermal power and deep core mining come to mind. Perhaps even engineering an entire ecosystem to live in mutualistic symbiosis with a factory of some sort, maintaining atmosphere temperature and composition for the good of both ecosystem and industry. Perhaps some plants/animals don't like artificial gravity and are healthier and/or more easily manipulated in their natural environment.

There are other games out there that achieve most of what you mention here, if you're wanting to experience that, I highly suggest checking those games out. It's no good creating a game that tries to do everything mediocre and does nothing well, perhaps with a 300 million dollar budget, we could achieve all of this. There's no reason for a game that meets the expectations laid out here to be set in space. Similarly, there's no reason for this space game to incorporate them.

While it's all nice, it's not StarMade.

 

[Neon_42]

StarMade is not a planet based game; it's a space game which happens to feature planets. None of these planet based mechanics are planned or will be planned; they heavily go against what this game is. StarMade is a game about ship to ship, astronaut to ship and faction interaction, planets are a useful mechanic for an additional backdrop (exploration) and potentially resource growth. We are investigating ways to have planets be a strategic (if not necessary) resource, other than simply an area where lots of blocks can be mined.

StarMade will always focus on ship interaction, and while astronaut gameplay can (and will) come into that, planet based mechanics like this play little to no role in contributing.

We see no reason to add mechanics that will not contribute to the current gameplay, what you're suggesting here is two gameplays existing in the same world.



There are other games out there that achieve most of what you mention here, if you're wanting to experience that, I highly suggest checking those games out. It's no good creating a game that tries to do everything mediocre and does nothing well, perhaps with a 300 million dollar budget, we could achieve all of this. There's no reason for a game that meets the expectations layed out here to be set in space. Similarly, there's no reason for this space game to incorporate them.

While it's all nice, it's not StarMade.

What is the purpose of planets then in the context of Starmade? I thought they were supposed to be resource piles, add interesting terrain for space combat and conquest by creating defensive positions, and places to explore and find valuables.

 

[DukeofRealms]

resource piles, add interesting terrain for space combat and conquest by creating defensive positions, and places to explore and find valuables.

Let's break this up.

• Resource piles - Yep
• Interesting terrain, defensive positions (this is part of being a strategic resource) - Yep, however defensive positions still needs to be investigated.
• Places to explore - Yep
• Location for "valuables" - Yep
• Macro resource growth (resources that can solely be obtained/grown on planets and are essential to progression)
• More... (things we have not yet researched)

I can't really go into resource growth at the moment because that's something we're currently investigating. It wouldn't be something small scale the player has to do themselves, it would be on a larger scale.

A lot of this really depends on how our current planet development goes. This time around, we will be designing systems to fit the result, so we can not confidently say or see what that will be just yet.

 

[captainairspeed]

Although I for one love the idea of having giant planets you can base you entire experience within the game around I have to agree with Duke its just not Starmade Starmade is about SHIPS from a strategic point of vie planets are great to have for planning tactics for SHIP to SHIP combat or as a cool place to hide a SPACESHIP farming yeah it would be fun but it would have to be something that could be done on a spaceship or space station Starmade is a unique game its a universal sandbox which is why its focused on SHIPS to explore the universe if we added in everything your talking about why would we explore the universe heck why would we build a space ship or space station Starmade is a game about exploration of war and of Battles in spaceships why change what the games about I'm syced for the new planets I think theyl be great but planets aren't what the game revolves around Space is what Starmades about


^^^^^
yup that was really long and I went off on a tangent but you get the basic gist starmades about the space ships the space stations and the 4 quadrillion galaxies to conquer and build your way through not sitting on a planet farming and fishing the players job is to build something blow stuff up and then get destroyed by a bigger ship so they go and build a bigger ship to blow them up if any of those features are implemented they will most likely revolve around being on a ship or on a station



I went off on a tangent again...

 

[GRHayes]

Let's break this up.

• Resource piles - Yep
• Interesting terrain, defensive positions (this is part of being a strategic resource) - Yep, however defensive positions still needs to be investigated.
• Places to explore - Yep
• Location for "valuables" - Yep
• Macro resource growth (resources that can solely be obtained/grown on planets and are essential to progression)
• More... (things we have not yet researched)

I can't really go into resource growth at the moment because that's something we're currently investigating. It wouldn't be something small scale the player has to do themselves, it would be on a larger scale.

A lot of this really depends on how our current planet development goes. This time around, we will be designing systems to fit the result, so we can not confidently say or see what that will be just yet.

The larger planets would add a number of benefits over current planets. Ships size to planet comparison. Actually landing on a planet with a larger ships would be more feasible. That would make using planets as bases a better option than they currently are. That all depends on how well he gets the performance of the planet loading and display to though.

 

[EricBlank]

I like the idea of planets having more strategic value to players, but the game does revolve around spacecraft interactions.

I could totally see the value in towns and civilized worlds and colonization; with a population on-planet, you have someone to give you missions, take missions for you (i need you to go find a bunch of x. Ill pay 100,000 credits), provide more of a local economy and industry than space stations can support, that sort of thing. Not to mention a population to lord over as their divine space wizard king.
We just need better access to them. Perhaps if the locals had a spaceport with a landing and launch pad (or space elevator) set up already. That would be cool.

You put defensive installations on planets to ward off pirate raids and players, you get access to their resources and maybe a faction point boost?

 

[Valiant70]

StarMade is not a planet based game; it's a space game which happens to feature planets. None of these planet based mechanics are planned or will be planned; they heavily go against what this game is. StarMade is a game about ship to ship, astronaut to ship and faction interaction, planets are a useful mechanic for an additional backdrop (exploration) and potentially resource growth. We are investigating ways to have planets be a strategic (if not necessary) resource, other than simply an area where lots of blocks can be mined.

At first it sounded like planets were going to be very disappointing indeed, but I think you may have misunderstood my initial post. I exaggerated a bit when I called planets the "other half" of what Starmade can be. That doesn't mean you have to code twice as much stuff. It just means extending several features to work well with the planets that are already planned.

• Farming: Can't we cultivate the plants we find while exploring? (flora system)
• Ranching: Can't we capture and breed things? (fauna system)
• Managing a town: Just stick some NPC "crew" on a planet. Minor tweaks might be needed in beta if anything.
• Industry: Starmade's industry needs work one way or another to make it interesting. Complete omission of planet-related options would be silly.
• Fishing: A minigame. Just something to throw in if Schema wants to code it sometime late in Starmade's development.

Adding a few parameters to a planet such as temperature and Oxygen, CO2, and water concentrations in the atmosphere would be plenty in the way of environmental factors. Some parameters like this will be needed anyway to make exploration interesting. From that point, flora, fauna, and machinery could have minor effects on the parameters over time. Players could use that for terraforming.

The sum total of features like these could provide a much broader experience to the game without requiring a monumental amount of additional work. Tremendous amounts of time could be saved by tweakting and broadening existing mechanics to planets (i.e. crew to towns). The time it would take would be well-spent broadening the game's appeal without shifting its focus.

 

[DoomCarrot]

I really do not umderstand the meaning of "defensive position" regarding planets. I mean, technically a space station is a defensive position if you put turrets all over it.

 

[Neon_42]

I really do not umderstand the meaning of "defensive position" regarding planets. I mean, technically a space station is a defensive position if you put turrets all over it.

DukeofRealms Here are some ideas for defensive positions.

A planet acts kinda like a choke point. A base on a planet cannot be attacked from all sides like a space station. Meaning you can focus your defenses towards the sky and horizon. Large ships cannot survive in a strong gravity well limiting your opponents offensive capabilities at close range, forcing orbital bombardment or smaller landing craft.

A space station in orbit may not have to worry about capital craft approaching from the planet side as the gravity well tends to make piloting large ships difficult/impossible. Fighters can still be piloted though.

If rings are ever implemented they would act as a capital ship screen as well, because the asteroids are hazardous to large vessels. These could also be mined or booby trapped to make things difficult for small attack ships.

A radiation belt around planets might be hazardous to fighters because they lack strong enough/appropriate shielding. Meaning capital ships would need to carry small craft into the fray.

Add moons into the system and things get more complex and interesting. A station at the Lagrange points between a planet an its moon may not have to defend from two sides, because the gravity wells keep large ships from approaching.

Gravity wells make jump/warp approaches difficult/impossible.

These are all defender advantages.

 

[Valiant70]

There was a thread about planet-wide shielding systems at one point. I think it was one I wrote.

 

[wafflepie]

Planets do need to be more interesting, if not now, then eventually. It is a space game, after all, and space games that have planets generally have things to do on those planets. Planets have only been improved a handful of times in the past; hopefully, the upcoming improvements will add more than just better terrain generation.

Since this is primarily a game about building, the best thing to do would be making planets bigger, so that sizable planetary bases can be possible, and planetary plates are big enough for large ships to actually land on. Of course, this must be done in such a way as to not sacrifice performance.

Improvements to planets is also the best way of improving exploration. For example: new planet types like volcanic planets, jungle planets, ocean planets, airless planets, gas planets, etc. Alien wildlife, either procedurally generated or handcrafted, some friendly, some hostile. Renewable resources on planets from farming plants and animals, and building drills to extract ores from the core. Generated structures, either belonging to an NPC faction, or abandoned and decaying. All of these things could be added to planets to improve them.

 

[kupu]

• Farming: Can't we cultivate the plants we find while exploring? (flora system)

• Ranching: Can't we capture and breed things? (fauna system)

• Managing a town: Just stick some NPC "crew" on a planet. Minor tweaks might be needed in beta if anything.

• Industry: Starmade's industry needs work one way or another to make it interesting. Complete omission of planet-related options would be silly.

• Fishing: A minigame. Just something to throw in if Schema wants to code it sometime late in Starmade's development.

"Introducing!

"


Facetiousness aside, entire games are built around solely those mechanics.

To additionally require

temperature and Oxygen, CO2, and water concentrations in the atmosphere

and still claim it requires relatively little work and won't shift focus, is naive.

It's incredibly exciting to generate ideas with no constraint, but let's be pragmatic before loosing sight of what we're trying to make here.

 

[Edymnion]

It's incredibly exciting to generate ideas with no constraint, but let's be pragmatic before loosing sight of what we're trying to make here.

Yeah, but the general point stands, IMO.

If planets are going to be things, they need to be something worth having. If its going to be an entirely space based game, then there is no point in having planets as actual objects. Just make them big glorified background textures for sectors like nebula are now.

If planets are going to be made of blocks, then for me at least they need to actually be useful as more than just resource dumps. Y'all keep saying about how you want people to explore, but there is no reason to explore really other than planets. Deep space is deep space. Asteroids are asteroids. Pirate stations are pirate stations. Literally the only reason I can think of why anyone would want to explore the galaxy is planets, but unless there is a lot of cool stuff to do on them, there is no point in having planets in the first place.

From where I'm sitting, a planet should be the biggest, most interesting class of thing in the universe. Planets need to be the "OMG, this system has the most amazing planets, you gotta come see this!". As is, I actively avoid systems with too many planets and actively seek out systems with lots of asteroids, because asteroids are useful while planets are basically just a waste of space.

In short, if planets aren't going to be a focus with lots of stuff to do on them, then as far as I'm concerned they shouldn't be there in the first place.

 

[aRottenKomquat]

There can be a profound sense of wonder associated with exploring a new Minecraft world. I don't get that at all in StarMade, even in space. More like, "Okay, here's another planet, bring in the planet-gobbling salvager and devour it whole." I'd love there to be reasons to land on a planet and spend an hour or two exploring it on foot. They need something. I'm just not sure what.

 

[Edymnion]

Agreed. Half the fun in Minecraft is exploring because the landscape around you is unique every time. Finding the perfect place to build your castle so that it has great views, access to good resources, etc is fun in and of itself. In Starmade, not so much. Find a system with a few good asteroid rings, and you're pretty much set for the rest of the game.

 

[aRottenKomquat]

What if there was a way to survey planets? Get rid of the current two-resources-per-plate system, and have clusters of ores scattered around the planet. You can always mine them by hand, but to mine them by ship you need to identify what ores are on the planet first, either by mining them by hand or by scanning with some kind of ore-scanning block that can be placed on your ship.

If you ship-mine an unsurveyed planet, you get no shards or ores. Once surveyed, then you can gather shards and ores.

This gives you one reason to explore, though it might be annoying or too grindy.