How to Promote Healthy PvP?

[Edymnion]

Takes longer than mining though.

Eh, mining requires building of intermediary ships, of tracking down asteroids, etc. These were the days when asteroid respawns were a bug, which meant everything near spawn was mined out.
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Like open world PvP?

So did you just not read the first post up there where I talked about ways to promote open world PvP?

 

[kulbolen]

ts really as simple as that. I've played on servers in this game and others that have come under coordinated troll attacks. I've been forum admins for sites that came under organized troll attacks (we even found the offsite forum they were using to plan what to do next).

youve now fabricated a problem to implement your solution.

 

[Edymnion]

youve now fabricated a problem to implement your solution.

What part of "I have personally seen this happen" do you not understand?

Its not magically fabricating something that has actually happened. Multiple times. On servers/games/forums I was personally involved in. Just because you don't want to admit that this happens doesn't mean its made up.

 

[kulbolen]

These were the days when asteroid respawns were a bug, which meant everything near spawn was mined out.

we can conclusively prove that it is, and always has been, very easy to acquire lost of resources quickly with 1 account. go on.

"What part of "I have personally seen this happen" do you not understand?"

its simple. nearly everything youve said has been made up or unfounded, with no evidence ever coughed up for your acusations. but heres the part that really drives my reasoning:

even if it happened exactly as you say, which is entirely possible... it makes NO DIFFERENCE at all, because it would have been just as easy if not far far easier to accomplish the same result with less accounts and likely less time, with another method thats part of normal gameplay. every experienced player reading this knows how easy it is to collect resources quickly.

 

[Crashmaster]

So did you just not read the first post up there where I talked about ways to promote open world PvP?

I think I read most of it. It contained the idea that large sections 'systems' we'll say, of the galaxy, we'll call that 'the world' (DIO), will not be 'open' to PvP.

 

[Edymnion]

we can conclusively prove that it is, and always has been, very easy to acquire lost of resources quickly with 1 account. go on.

"What part of "I have personally seen this happen" do you not understand?"

its simple. nearly everything youve said has been made up or unfounded, with no evidence ever coughed up for your acusations. but heres the part that really drives my reasoning:

even if it happened exactly as you say, which is entirely possible... it makes NO DIFFERENCE at all, because it would have been just as easy if not far far easier to accomplish the same result with less accounts and likely less time, with another method thats part of normal gameplay. every experienced player reading this knows how easy it is to collect resources quickly.

1) I'm not saying an experienced player couldn't do it better. I'm saying this is what happened, and you are telling me to my face that I'm lying.

2) It has nothing to do with how it happened, it has everything to do with it happened. Ways of stopping obvious trolls are important. Griefing goes both ways.

3) You're derailing on one sub-topic while ignoring the intent of the thread, which to me is rather reinforcing my existing opinion that PvP'ers aren't interested in fixing anything, they just want to blow random people up. No one has proposed anything even remotely close to game changes that could help both sides coexist in the game at the same time, they've only been trying to shout it down or derail it.

 

[kulbolen]

1) I'm not saying an experienced player couldn't do it better. I'm saying this is what happened, and you are telling me to my face that I'm lying.

i didnt say you were lying. i said theres a good chance you could be lying based on all the past stuff youve made up, kinda like youre doing right now. ive lost count of how many times in the last few days youve made up words and attributed them to others.

 

[Edymnion]

i didnt say you were lying. i said theres a good chance you could be lying based on all the past stuff youve made up, kinda like youre doing right now. ive lost count of how many times in the last few days youve made up words and attributed them to others.

I haven't made up anything. I've just been saying things you don't personally agree with.

And you're still not contributing the original purpose of the thread.

 

[kulbolen]

I haven't made up anything. I've just been saying things you don't personally agree with.

And you're still not contributing the original purpose of the thread.

nearly every post you make you make claims of people saying things they didnt. this entire thread history is proof of that. you can lie and say you didnt; it doesnt make it true.

as far as contributing, you posted this just to be your personal stomping ground for people who dont agree. you called out kare for vitcim shaming when they gave you their opinion.

 

[Edymnion]

nearly every post you make you make claims of people saying things they didnt. this entire thread history is proof of that. you can lie and say you didnt; it doesnt make it true.

Just because I'm not giving you a fully itemized index of everything everyone has ever said on this forum over the past 2+ years does not mean it didn't happen. I'm not keeping itemized lists of everyone that has ever said anything I disagree with just so I can harp on them later.

Let me see if I can find one of Bat's more recent comments...

I am very good at sniffing out peoples locations. Through various little hints, prediction and the Human factor where people use the same patterns in there behavior.

None aggressive players have often very poor situational awareness. They do not dock their stuff. They do not keep an eye out for who is online. They ignore the a Neutral has entered your System message.

And then i stand before them. With all their ships floating in space. Panic strikes as they scramble around. We are peaceful do not shoot us! They hoist the RP Flag to claim for immunity. In the hope that that might make me look bad if i open fire.

...

Well only a third-rate person would lick his lips in front of his prey. And make no mistake you are prey! Like a Lion eating a baby Gazelle.

There is no such thing as Griefing in this game. It flat out does not exist! Anything that can be shot will be shot.

He is actively bragging about hunting down people who don't want to fight and tearing them apart while they are begging him not to. How is that "fun" for anyone but him? Those other guys trying to talk him out of it don't seem to have been going "Well shucks, you found me. I better hide better next time!" to me.

as far as contributing, you posted this just to be your personal stomping ground for people who dont agree. you called out kare for vitcim shaming when they gave you their opinion.

Yeah, because thats what it was.

There was no "Oh, its bad that it happens, what can we do to prevent it" it was entirely "Oh its their fault for not hiding better". By saying the way to not get killed 5 minutes out of the gate is tips on how to hide, it implies that if you do get killed you didn't hide well enough, which shifts the blame from the person who killed you to the victim.

 

[Bladeriker]

Replace the current space claiming system with something more akin to Influence. You can claim a system as your home system, but you can't just plop down a hidden block anywhere in another system that has to be found before it can be removed. Make it so you have to spend Faction Points to claim a system via your "influence", and FP to maintain a system, but also make it so that losing ships in those systems makes you lose influence. Meaning if you have no ships or stations in those influence systems, others can come in and "culture bomb" the system by spending their own FP to take it from you. Or if you have ships and stations there to defend the system, destroying them would make it easier and cheaper for them to take it.Alternatively, it could be done similar to structured PvP in games like WoW where you have to have your people in a specific area long enough to claim the point. You go into unclaimed space, you build your station, it starts generating influence. You get enough influence in the system, and it claims automatically. Having ships and stations there and active builds influence, and having other faction ships/stations in an unclaimed system builds that influence for them as well, making contested space where you have to clear them out before you can fully claim it for yourself.

I liked this one, but there needs to a consideration made for Single player, where the AI and presumably newer AI will be both neutral and hostile toward the player, depending on settings. I do like the concept of influence from a starting sector though, where the home sector is protected. Influence could be spread through adding stations in new sectors, or by setting up mining operations in new sectors, or by eliminating all hostile force (Pirates/Hostile AI) stations in the sector. As it stands any changes to Multiplayer PvE designed to balance multiplayer PvP will directly effect the single player game (Which has been one of the short comings of games like WoW).

Another option would be to have AI attackers that could allow players to be more cooperative in a PvP settings, as having a common enemy can help to iron out PvP issues. Mind you this would take some AI fixes, but it could be interesting.

 

[Edymnion]

Cannot this already be done with admin commands and a server the supports gameplay of this type?

There is an old bit from back on the Wizards of the Coast message boards from when D&D 3e was out about this.

It was called the Oberroni Fallacy.

The gaming books had an official "Rule Zero" that basically said "Your DM can change any rule presented here, check with them first" when it came to making a character. Often times someone would find a loophole or abuse that was technically "legal", mention it, and people would respond with "Well you can just Rule Zero it like this..."

A user by the name of Oberroni pointed out that just because it can be fixed with Rule Zero doesn't mean it wasn't broken in the first place.

Same applies to this game, IMO. Just because a config setting can be changed or an admin command can be used to individually fix a problem doesn't mean it wasn't a problem to begin with.

 

[Bladeriker]

PvP can be fun. When two or more individuals go and test out their creations in a slug fest to see who will come out on top can be both very entertaining and fun. However, getting to a place on a server where one can do that is not always fun and depending on the server population and behavior, can be quite toxic.

Ideally, one will join a server and find a place to call their own, then set up shop, make a faction, and then start gathering resources for ship creation. At some point they if will finish up their ship and go out to test it. This test could look like a sanctioned duel, where the player asks another player to combat for the purposes of testing out the ship. The test could also look like the player attacking an AI pirate station to see what they can do, or lastly they could go and attack another player to see how they fair.

The issue is not solely about losing valuable resources, but about not being able to use those resources to create something to play with. If a new player is mining and working on getting to a place where they can stand on their own, but is attacked by the Pirates and killed they chalk that up to bad luck, or just bad timing, and the same could go for a single attack from another player. However, if the new player comes under attack from the same player or even the same faction more than once it is likely that they will either, try to join the attacking faction, join a faction that can protect them, or if that fails complete leave the game.

I agree that galactic conquest by a single faction/player is not going to allow for a reasonable player environment in a MMO-Sandbox. Neither is allowing for a single player to hold a monopoly on resources in the MMO-sandbox. Having multiple factions that are both there to help out players, but also drive PvP is another way for this to go. I nearly every successful MMORPG, the players at creation choose a faction to fight for, and from there gain a noted enemy, and a noted Allie from the start, with defined boarders of where safe is and where safe is not. Having AI a driven faction that could come to the aid of its members (While exploitable for resources), could be one solution to how to make PvP more PvE friendly, where home base protection would not change, but being in a controlled sector would have the benefit of AI spawned protectors if needed, and non controlled sectors have no protection.

 

[Lecic]

There is not a 100% crossover between the two areas, with the majority of players leaning more towards PvE than towards PvP.

If this was true, where are all the PvE servers? Why are all the servers PvP? Where's your survey?

PvP != griefing, griefing is an unwanted subset of PvP that does not represent all of PvP.

Griefing is entirely on a server-by-server basis. What is and is not is entirely up to server admins. Stop trying to push this agenda of a "universal griefing standard" for Starmade.

Galactic Conquest is not a valid gameplay style on an online server. It relies on the concept that one player controls everything, either directly or that other players are allowed to play only by paying "tribute" or otherwise submitting to a single player.

Total War is not a valid gameplay style on an online server. The ability to destroy everything a player has is effectively a player enforced ban on another player.

Sorry, wrong. Starmade is an empire building open world game. This is true in both SP and MP. No one has any "rights" to anything in multiplayer beyond what the admins have as their rules.

Make open space deadlier.
Right now, an attack on any entity a faction owns sets the entirety of both factions to war. What if being attacked in open space allowed for combat with the other ship without setting everyone to war? Being outside of your own space is dangerous, and you can get jumped without consequences to the other side. Attacking someone in their own space instantly declares war.

Stupid idea. Why would there not be automatic war dec ANYWHERE? How does this even make open space "deadlier"? You would still know who shot at you. You'd just need to manually war dec, an obnoxious waste of time.

Stop PvP for new players on a server entirely for X amount of time.
Attacking new players is a problem. It is also a problem that concerted efforts between multiple players can have a dozen people abuse the starting credits/blocks to destroy everything that isn't a faction base on a server (I've seen this happen more than once). If we disable PvP for new players entirely for say 24 or 48 hours, it gives new players ample time to set up in safety, while preventing the random driveby griefing squads from attacking servers as easily (as they would have to spend days before each character could even attack).

I don't think someone who hasn't played on PvP servers in what may be years at this point should be commenting on what he thinks is a "big issue," when it's incredibly rare. Even huge dicks rarely bother with new players, because there's nothing to gain from it, and spawn systems are usually protected. The only time new players get attacked is when the server has just opened and everyone is new, or when the new player talks a lot of shit and acts aggressively towards established players.

Dude, we scanned the logs. We know exactly how they did it. Bunch of people logging in, transferring money and parts to one person to hold, and then repeating with multiple different names until they could buy the blocks to make a super ship and blow everything away.

Sounds more like a problem with a server having an overstocked spawn shop and far too much starter gear than a game-wide issue.

 

[NeonSturm]

Server-Admin:

1. Do you want anti-grief rule "asdfasdfasdfasdf-standard12"?
   • Yes? | No? | Own-version

Simple as that.

But first, we need such standard-rules.
These standard-rules shouldn't be enforced because they are good, but because are chosen by lazy admins and make it easy for players to adapt to a new server.