Cannon/Explosive Viability

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    Hey everyone!

    I'm just wondering if anyone has had the chance/inclination to play around with the new(ish) weapon mechanics introduced earlier in the year, specifically, the Explosive effect slaved to cannons.

    I'm designing some cruiser cannons and I really haven't the first idea about which combinations are "best": i.e. combinations that can make quick work (just a few shots) of "fighter" sized ships. Most of the combinations I've tried require you to focus the gun for at least a minute or two to knock it out.

    Anyway, I've tried the Explosive effect, but I feel like it doesn't have nearly the same destructive capabilities as the same turret with the Overdrive effect.

    Anybody have any thoughts? Is the Cannon/Explosive system working for anyone else? Any feedback would be appreciated. Thanks!
     
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    I haven't tested it in real conditions yet, but I made some main turrets using can/beam/exp. They are large turrets.

    The thing is (and I'm no expert, by any means lol) is that the explosive effect reduces your penetration. It also seems to only spread the damage to each block directly touching the one you hit.

    If you want straight efficiency, then can/punch is probably still the way to go. But I wanted to make huge holes with a cannon. My solution? 13 outputs, in a circular pattern, with 1 larger cluster in the the center. It leaves nice big holes where it hits, and is powerful enough to go through about 20 layers adv armor. Well, the center one goes that deep. The other 12 seem to penetrate about half that.

    I really just wanted to see how viable it is, So I decided to use it for real, and see how happy I am with the result lol
     
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    The issue with having a cannon main with missile slave, is its very short effective range. It makes it a very difficult weapon to use in combat by a player. And all that time your trying to position and close the gap on the enemy, they are likely using longer range guns.

    However. In the last Drone Wars competition one contestant made "Brawler" drones which used the cannon/missile setup. The "Shot Gun" worked wonders on other drones. It also aided in his missile defense if I remember correctly.

    Link to contest thread:
    Drone Wars Competition , Season 2
    Link to video playlist of contest:
    Drone Wars Competition Season 2 - YouTube

    Thought there were more videos he uploaded but I guess Drakkart never got around to uploading them all.

    EDIT: after re-reading that... how the hell did I get the idea you were talking specifically about cannon/missile. Guess I was too tired to be on the forums last night.
     
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    Lecic

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    Explosive is a very effective anti-block tertiary vs ships with less armor thickness. However, keep in mind that it halves shield damage and halves direct block damage in exchange for doing extra damage overall. If you have a very small turret, that's probably why it's not being very effective when you swap the overdrive for explosive. Could you share the block counts of the weapons on these turrets?

    I personally only recommend overdrive on very small ships and turrets, on ships designed to be very cheap to produce, or on ships with a huge amount of excess power (cloakers primarily). Otherwise, go with one of the other effects- explosive, punch, pierce, or ion, depending on what you

    The issue with having a cannon main with missile slave, is its very short effective range. It makes it a very difficult weapon to use in combat by a player. And all that time your trying to position and close the gap on the enemy, they are likely using longer range guns.

    However. In the last Drone Wars competition one contestant made "Brawler" drones which used the cannon/missile setup. The "Shot Gun" worked wonders on other drones. It also aided in his missile defense if I remember correctly.
    Pretty sure he's talking about Cannon/X/Explosive, not Cannon/Missile/X.
     
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    AtraUnam

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    Metaprojectiles with C/P too punch through a few armor blocks followed by C/E absoloutely murders most ships. Has to be modulated to fit the target, too much initial punch and you overpen your target, too little and up to half of the explosive damage may be wasted on armor.
     
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    Metaprojectiles with C/P too punch through a few armor blocks followed by C/E absoloutely murders most ships. Has to be modulated to fit the target, too much initial punch and you overpen your target, too little and up to half of the explosive damage may be wasted on armor.
    Are you talking about the anti-fighter turrets tuned to have one cannon shot that breaks exactly one adv armor block, followed by a ripper shot with explosive? Or a larger shp mounted version? That could be nasty
     

    AtraUnam

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    Either, metaguns are just generally wonderful.
     
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    Whoa, lots of stuff. Thanks guys!

    So real quick, for my turrets, I'm guessing what I have would probably be considered pretty small, considering I see many people creating turrets the size of my ships.


    As you can see, I'm working with a cannon/cannon/explosive setup. I have two groups of 41 each, 45 slaved cannons (>50%), and 77 (94%) explosive modules. The whole system is 204 blocks, not counting of course the armor and such. So yeah, I'm guessing that's small for most? Should I share the overdrive count as well?

    Also, as far as cannon/cannon systems go, say you have 100 blocks to work with. Are there any inherent advantages/disadvantages to any percentage split? Is the DPS always the same, whether it's 50/50 or 75/25, for example? I'm still a little fuzzy on weapons.
     
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    Lecic

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    As you can see, I'm working with a cannon/cannon/explosive setup. I have two groups of 41 each, 45 slaved cannons (>50%), and 77 (94%) explosive modules. The whole system is 204 blocks, not counting of course the armor and such. So yeah, I'm guessing that's small for most? Should I share the overdrive count as well?
    Cannons have 10 DPS/module. So, with a total size per output of 102 modules, which is 1020 DPS per output. Divide that by 5 shots per second for 204 damage per shot. Explosive halves direct damage, so that's 102 direct damage per shot, with a puny 17 damage applied to its neighbors. This is TERRIBLE damage.
    Compare this with the overdrive version of the cannon. We'll assume 100% tertiary for easier calculations. Overdrive triples damage (for 6x power), so it's doing 604 damage per shot instead.

    For reference, advanced armor blocks, with AHP (armor health points), have 2000 EHP (effective health points), and have 4000 EHP when combined with the armor passives (punch and pierce).

    If you want this turret to be effective with explosive, you have a few options. Increasing size, decreasing output number, and decreasing rate of fire. You probably want to keep the turret small, so I would recommend two things. 1, cut it down to 1 barrel. This will increase your DPS per output to 2040. Second, cut your rate of fire down. This will boost damage per shot. If you switch to cannon/beam/explosive, you will have 8160 damage per shot (4080 on direct, 680 explosive). You could also use 50% beam instead of 100%, which would double your firerate but make you unable to penetrate the armor on passive equipped ships. I would personally recommend the full beam slave.

    Also, what exactly is a "metagun"?
    Logic or AI fired multiprojectile weapon arrays. For example, you could have a turret that has a cannon/beam/punch gun with a cannon/beam/explosive gun directly behind it. The punch gun would hit a split second before the explosive gun, clearing a path through the armor, and the explosive gun would have more damage to penetrate and explode systems. Using a system like this, you can deal more damage to a ship than you could with either a punch or explosive gun of the same size.
    The downside? Only works with logic or AI, because players can't fire two projectiles simultaneously at the exact same spot like they can.
     
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    Whoa, lots of questions. Where to start...?

    Okay...let's see...

    Cannons have 10 DPS/module. So, with a total size per output of 102 modules, which is 1020 DPS per output. Divide that by 5 shots per second for 204 damage per shot. Explosive halves direct damage, so that's 102 direct damage per shot, with a puny 17 damage applied to its neighbors. This is TERRIBLE damage.
    Do you not make up for the decrease in the damage per shot in the amount of shots per second? Does it not all balance out DPS-wise?

    Explosive halves direct damage, so that's 102 direct damage per shot, with a puny 17 damage applied to its neighbors.
    So, just to clarify, diagonal blocks aren't affected? So, rather than dealing damage to the 26 (3^3 -1) potentially surrounding blocks, it's just those that have direct contact to a face of the block? Also, say there's less than 6 total blocks directly contacting the faces of the hit block; do you lose damage, or is the explosive half divided evenly among the blocks that are present?

    If you want this turret to be effective with explosive, you have a few options. Increasing size, decreasing output number, and decreasing rate of fire. You probably want to keep the turret small, so I would recommend two things. 1, cut it down to 1 barrel. This will increase your DPS per output to 2040. Second, cut your rate of fire down. This will boost damage per shot.
    Again, I'm having a hard time understanding how it doesn't proportion itself out. With two barrels, are you not just applying a proportional explosive effect to each? And again with the rate of fire, won't the shots per second, multiplied by the (reduced) damage per shot, equal the same damage per second? Or does it not work like that?

    Logic or AI fired multiprojectile weapon arrays.
    If it's logic OR AI, then that means the effect can be achieved without logic? How do you go about having the AI fire like this?
    [doublepost=1489805412,1489803612][/doublepost]
    If you switch to cannon/beam/explosive, you will have 8160 damage per shot (4080 on direct, 680 explosive). You could also use 50% beam instead of 100%, which would double your firerate but make you unable to penetrate the armor on passive equipped ships. I would personally recommend the full beam slave.
    Also, I forgot to ask, why beam exactly? Why not, say, Damage Pulse, for the purpose of increasing the damage per shot?
     

    Lecic

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    Do you not make up for the decrease in the damage per shot in the amount of shots per second? Does it not all balance out DPS-wise?
    All cannon weapons have the same DPS, just with different rates of fire and damage per shot. However, it is more likely to penetrate armor with with a single large shot than hoping multiple smaller shots will hit the same exact spot. That is why it is generally better to use high damage, low rof weapon types for small module count weapons.

    So, just to clarify, diagonal blocks aren't affected? So, rather than dealing damage to the 26 (3^3 -1) potentially surrounding blocks, it's just those that have direct contact to a face of the block?
    Explosive only effects the blocks directly touching the initial block hit, and will not touch diagonal blocks.

    Also, say there's less than 6 total blocks directly contacting the faces of the hit block; do you lose damage, or is the explosive half divided evenly among the blocks that are present?
    The damage is lost if there isn't a block. It is not redirected. This is actually a point of balance consideration, and it may end up being changed to 5 instead of 6 in the future, seeing as how there's no way for 6 blocks to actually be effected by the explosion.

    Again, I'm having a hard time understanding how it doesn't proportion itself out. With two barrels, are you not just applying a proportional explosive effect to each? And again with the rate of fire, won't the shots per second, multiplied by the (reduced) damage per shot, equal the same damage per second? Or does it not work like that?
    DPS of all cannon combinations is identical, with only rate of fire and individual damage changing. With two barrels, you are even less likely to penetrate armor, as you now need roughly twice as many shots to destroy an armor block. That is why I recommended a single barrel with higher damage instead of dual rapid barrels. Multiple barrels should not be used unless you would otherwise have overpenetration. For example, a 100,000 damage cannon would likely work better as a 5x5 cluster of 4000 damage cannons for block destruction.

    If it's logic OR AI, then that means the effect can be achieved without logic? How do you go about having the AI fire like this?
    AI is essentially a player that has the mouse button permanently held down on every single weapon, only releasing if the power of the vessel is too low. AI will fire all weapons simultaneously, which allows for easy creation of meta weapons in the same way logic allows for it.

    Also, I forgot to ask, why beam exactly? Why not, say, Damage Pulse, for the purpose of increasing the damage per shot?
    Lower range, lower velocity, significantly longer reload time, and overpenetration. This turret is designed for shooting fighters, and cannon/pulse will punch clean through it, wasting tons of damage.
    Furthermore, cannon/pulse is pretty much a complete dead end of a weapon. Cannons typically have a range and rate of fire advantage over their clearest competitor, beams.
    • Cannon/Cannon vs Cannon/Beam BEAM/CANNON [RoF + Damage Analogues]- Cannon/Cannon has superior range and RoF.
    • Cannon/Beam vs Beam [RoF + Damage Analogues]- Cannon/Beam has slightly faster RoF and massively superior range.
    • Cannon/Beam vs Beam/Beam [Range Analogues]- Cannon/Beam has superior range and much higher RoF.
    • Cannon/Pulse vs Beam/Beam [RoF + Damage Analogues]- Beam/Beam has superior range combined with hitscan, and a slightly faster RoF.
    There is no real reason to take Cannon/Pulse over Cannon/Beam or Beam/Beam. It is outclassed in range and rate of fire by both, and its slight damage advantage over Beam/Beam is nullified by its projectile nature and, again, relatively short range.
     
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    WalkerGain the rapid dps doesn't even out to high alpha weapons, because you have to hit the exact block every shot to finally break through it. If you gun only does 200 dmg per shot, and it takes 8000 dmg to break it, then you're gonna have to hit that particular block another 39 times. It's not effective.
     
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    Ohhh, okay, I think I'm beginning to understand. I figured that the cannon dps was identical, but I hadn't been considering armor penetration. Now I'm getting what you mean.


    The damage is lost if there isn't a block. It is not redirected.
    I apologize for this question. After I had posted and before your response I went to the release notes where they talked about the explosion effect changes, and I saw where it said that the damage to non-present blocks was lost. I should have known better, because I must have read those notes several times, but I guess that point hadn't stuck. And I definitely see why it should probably be divided by 5 instead of 6.


    That is why it is generally better to use high damage, low rof weapon types for small module count weapons.
    So, it's better to use low rof for smaller weapons, and higher rof is more useful for larger scale? I find that very interesting. It seems to me like that goes against every sort of "science-fiction weapon" trope. You know? Like, for the most part, smaller turret weapons are more likely to be rapid-fire, owing I guess to their low energy consumption/low charging time, and more massive weapons, slower. And I think that just makes sense intuitively. A bigger energy weapon would take more time to "charge" a single shot, and a bigger projectile weapon could conceivably take longer to reload.
     

    Lecic

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    So, it's better to use low rof for smaller weapons, and higher for larger? I find that very interesting. It seems to me like that goes against every sort of "science-fiction weapon" trope. You know? Like, for the most part, rapid fire turret weapons are more likely to be rapid-fire, owing I guess to their low energy consumption/low charging time, and more massive weapons, slower. And I think that just makes sense intuitively. A bigger energy weapon would take more time to "charge" a single shot, and a bigger projectile weapon could conceivably take longer to reload.
    Oh, yeah, I agree, it's completely counterintuitive. I've had discussions with possible solutions to this problem with one of the devs, Lancake, in the past, but for the moment it is how it is.
     
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    Whoops, I just noticed I said rapid fire turrets are more likely rapid firing. I meant "smaller turret weapons" were, haha.

    AI is essentially a player that has the mouse button permanently held down on every single weapon, only releasing if the power of the vessel is too low. AI will fire all weapons simultaneously, which allows for easy creation of meta weapons in the same way logic allows for it.
    I had no idea that was the case. That's really interesting. But is there a way to get the AI to fire the weapons so that like you said earlier, the armor piercing projectile hits a split second sooner?

    Also, would you happen to be able to direct me to your discussion, assuming it's in a public thread, to your solutions to that aforementioned problem? Knowing a little more about weapons now, I'm curious to see what you proposed.
     

    Lecic

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    That's really interesting. But is there a way to get the AI to fire the weapons so that like you said earlier, the armor piercing projectile hits a split second sooner?
    Put the weapons behind eachother.

    Also, would you happen to be able to direct me to your discussion, assuming it's in a public thread, to your solutions to that aforementioned problem? Knowing a little more about weapons now, I'm curious to see what you proposed.
    Sorry, private convo. Basically, rapid weapons on small ships would get bonus damage vs other small ships.
     
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    Put the weapons behind eachother.
    Oh. Yeah, haha, I suppose that would do it. Do you think for a smaller turret like mine, that's practical? It seems like that's another thing better suited for larger systems.
     

    Lecic

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    Oh. Yeah, haha, I suppose that would do it. Do you think for a smaller turret like mine, that's practical? It seems like that's another thing better suited for larger systems.
    Meta weapons are usually for slightly larger turrets, although you could probably make it work if you used cannon/pulse. I don't see much of a reason for using metaguns vs fighters, though. They're unlikely to have more than even one layer of armor, which might not even be advanced armor. I see potential for overpen problems compared to a cannon/beam/explosive system.
     
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    Mmm...makes sense. Well, thanks so much for all your help! I think I've definitely gained a better understanding of weapon systems now.