Welcome the Change

[Gasboy]

Not at all a good way to do it. Companies never do things like this, it just causes chaos. If it was a cool new feature it would have got people hyped up. Now there's so much panic and cross-talk it will be pretty hard to figure out what should be done. I know that the devs have been looking to remake a lot of core systems but you can't just drop this on people when they are expecting new stuff and fixes to old systems. This is like dangling an apple in front of us and then telling us we need to uproot and regrow the tree to get it. I agree that it is necessary but if this rollercoaster continues more and more people are going to go somewhere else.

Companies do this all the time.

If it was just a cool new feature, Schine would have just put it into the game.

But this change isn't "just" a new feature. It's the underpinning of the whole game, mechanics-wise. There's nothing that happens in game without power, and obviously Schine had an understanding that the change might not be popular. So good on them for offering it.

They've given us a trickle new stuff a bit lately, and now they are applying "fixes to old systems". How is this dangling an apple in front of us? We wanted better power, and they've given us an offer. Let's see what can be done with it, what we can offer back in return, before we reject it out of hand.

Yeah, we're going to have to overhaul everything, but do I really have to beat the dead horse that is "This is an alpha, expect massive changes on a moment's notice"?

 

[terra mining corp.]

OK.

View attachment 38488

oh crap was one of those mine! lol great meme

 

[The_Owl]

Also why do you have the idea that "all change is good" and we should accept it because "it's new and we'll make so many things with it!"

Just recently, twitter have reversed a change that the community thought was bad. Trying to get everyone to agree that change is always good, which your post reeks of, instead of "i like this, this is why"

Twitter u-turn on new abuse tool - BBC News - Link to said twitter change

OK.

View attachment 38488

that meme is bad and you should feel bad

 

[Comradecolonel]

Companies do this all the time.

If it was just a cool new feature, Schine would have just put it into the game.

But this change isn't "just" a new feature. It's the underpinning of the whole game, mechanics-wise. There's nothing that happens in game without power, and obviously Schine had an understanding that the change might not be popular. So good on them for offering it.

They've given us a trickle new stuff a bit lately, and now they are applying "fixes to old systems". How is this dangling an apple in front of us? We wanted better power, and they've given us an offer. Let's see what can be done with it, what we can offer back in return, before we reject it out of hand.

Yeah, we're going to have to overhaul everything, but do I really have to beat the dead horse that is "This is an alpha, expect massive changes on a moment's notice"?

Companies do this all the time? Not really. Just posting up a brainstorm when you are years through developing a product. Most communities would have freaked out the same way. It basically says, "We need something better but don't know what it is." Imagine getting into a taxi cab and the driver asks you how to change gears. Confidence is number one and its getting harder by the day to have it with Starmade.

A cool new feature, even if vague, still gets people thinking about new possibilities. Being vague can still lead to some misunderstanding in the long run, but it can work. Instead what we get is a vague proposal to fix the "problem". Problems that have been commented on by the community, but there is no centralized discussion about it. It seems that it would have been a much better idea to get a big discussion going before even brainstorming.

The point of the apple metaphor is that they have been hyping up new features that are going to add a lot to the game. Crew, working ai, fleets, trade, and more have all been announced like they are the next steps in development. None of these work properly yet if they are even in the game, and now we are probably going to spend months ironing out power.

Also I've expressed that I agree that we need power changes and that the system could work if done right. My problem at this point is I feel that Schine isn't giving me any confidence in their design process. It seems all over the place and everything is so tight-lipped like its the FBI or something. When they do tell us something its done they way it was with this power post. This is something that should have been handled with the council or another tight group, until they have an actual system to show us. All we have now are vague concepts and it's not helping people at all. Am I seriously supposed to give serious feedback on vague concepts?

 

[Edymnion]

if this rollercoaster continues more and more people are going to go somewhere else.

So? Who cares?

This is alpha. The name of the game right now is not number of players. Its just having enough people to test things with. If people don't like it enough to actually stop playing, the door is right over there. Leave. You (and me, and everyone else here right now) aren't important to this game. Every single person on these forums could drop the game tomorrow and never come back, and the game would continue because new people would be coming in to replace us.

Later on, when the game is done and the hype wagon starts to roll, thats when gaining and retaining people matters. Right now we're unpaid testers, nothing more.

Its this kind of entitled "Do it the way I want, or I'm leaving" attitude that does more harm than anything else.

 

[Comradecolonel]

So? Who cares?

This is alpha. The name of the game right now is not number of players. Its just having enough people to test things with. If people don't like it enough to actually stop playing, the door is right over there. Leave. You (and me, and everyone else here right now) aren't important to this game. Every single person on these forums could drop the game tomorrow and never come back, and the game would continue because new people would be coming in to replace us.

Later on, when the game is done and the hype wagon starts to roll, thats when gaining and retaining people matters. Right now we're unpaid testers, nothing more.

Its this kind of entitled "Do it the way I want, or I'm leaving" attitude that does more harm than anything else.

Entitled? I don't feel that I am entitled to anything less than my opinion. If I can't express my opinion without it being rejected as categorically wrong then I will pack my things and leave tomorrow. The last thing this game needs it for the playerbase to become a band of "Cat-God" loving fanboys.

We've seen that when coming to game design concepts things haven't always worked out so well. Schema seems to be creative at making the software tech that runs the game, but game design has been pretty hit or miss. I feel I have every right to criticize everything Schine does down to the individual. Every member of the forum has equal right to tell me I'm an asshole and should shut up. The point is to discuss things piece by piece and not pile-drive things through.

All I want is to know what is going on with this game. Most people feel this way that is why the council was even a thing in the first place. It feels like I never know what the devs are thinking. Only bits and pieces that are thrown to us through blog posts and streams once in a while. Most of the time they aren't written by schema so its just second-hand info at best. They could build this entire game from the ground up for all I care. I'd just like better communication. I know I am far from alone on that.

 

[JinM]

Guys, chill.

Shine is developing a game. Let them do their work. I think they really do care much more about it like some judgemental loudly acting fan-boys here. Do you know what a grown man thinks about this behaviour? They read it, process it, and in some cases they bloddy ignore it because they actually know what's up and how to develop a game.

In the end in it's just a game and if you don't like it play something else or start some real-life hobbies like joining a sport-club. Shine is doing everything right in my opinion. No need to get so serious and debate it again and again. I really don't get why people in online communities allways take everything so serious. Have some fun guys. See the positive stuff. And maybe don't act like Starmade is the only game in the world. No life depends on how the devs decide to go further with the progress of SM. The propossal of the energy change was a place to voice your opinion where SM should head.

But that input-asking thread - and this whole forum - is not a place to voice your nervous threats to stop playing a game thousands of people have fun with, just because Shine asked you for your input. I find it absolutely annoying to read all this negative comments. There is a difference between progressive input like making thought out suggestions and blant rantily critique. And OP asked the community nicely and indirectly to stop this ranting and negativeness. Thanks for reading relaxobears. Have some fun and don't act like gamedevelopers don't need to and don't know how to make a fun game - please. =)

Oh and one thing: Don't expect a 2k review counting game on Steam, that has a scope of the deepth of Minecraft, beeing equally fast developed like Minecraft. Minecraft had 5 Million buyers after 5 years - and then it came out of beta. Do you get it? SM is as complex as Minecraft, but the devs only have 1% of the budget MC had. Ofcourse this development will take long! So let us chill. :D

 

[arouq]

The OP really missed a chance here to say something impactful, instead, it came across as welcome this particular change. This is not the right way to go about this. Let's put whether you like or dislike the proposal to the side, and address what Schine has actually done.

What's incredibly frustrating to me is this:

All I want is to know what is going on with this game. Most people feel this way that is why the council was even a thing in the first place. It feels like I never know what the devs are thinking. Only bits and pieces that are thrown to us through blog posts and streams once in a while. Most of the time they aren't written by schema so its just second-hand info at best. They could build this entire game from the ground up for all I care. I'd just like better communication. I know I am far from alone on that.

Awesome! Schine is actually taking the first steps to achieve this. If we as a community actually bothered to read what they've said on this topic, we'd know that this power proposal is them opening up their game design process to the public. You can like or dislike the proposal, that doesn't matter at all. But if you want them to continue in this step, we as a community are going to need to show that we consist of enough mature individuals to deal with it. You want to know what they're thinking? They've just told you. You're not making it clear what you want, do you want them to share more information (which they've just done) or not?

Companies do this all the time? Not really. Just posting up a brainstorm when you are years through developing a product. Most communities would have freaked out the same way. It basically says, "We need something better but don't know what it is." Imagine getting into a taxi cab and the driver asks you how to change gears. Confidence is number one and its getting harder by the day to have it with Starmade.

Yea, they don't normally share their plans. You want to know why? Because game development is frustrating, those of us in the industry got here through study and experience. We're professionals, we've been trained to deal with the development process. The customer is not. They are not equipped to do this, they want the results, but they don't want to do, see or hear the hard work. Don't believe me, read the power thread, read what you've said. "We need something better but don't know what it is." That's how it works, despite popular belief, game developers aren't gods, lots and lots of brainstorming occurs. You want more transparency? Then expect to start seeing more "uncertainty" from Schine. You don't know what you want.

 

[Crashmaster]

Its this kind of entitled "Do it the way I want, or I'm leaving" attitude that does more harm than anything else.

While I agree with the basis of your points in both cases I feel compelled to condemn what I perceive as double standards.

I'll just say this.

The day 100% invincibility of faction homes goes away, for any reason, is the day I stop playing Starmade and never look back.

I don't care what justifications someone comes up with, the ability to completely wipe someone off the map (and face it, that is what destroying a faction home means, wiping out every last block someone owns so that they are incapable of starting over) is a HORRIBLE mechanic to allow, for any reason, and will only be abused.

 

[Kimiro]

Honestly, and I've said this before, I feel a lot of the opposition to the change comes from people being ingrained into thinking the game has to work a certain way, that the skills they have accrued over the time they have played will be invalidated by this change. No one really likes to feel like they've been undermined, and a these changes would undermine a LOT of people. So it's expected that those same people will be resistant.

However, asking everyone to just "accept it" isn't exactly constructive, since the system was posted not as a "preview" but as a "hey this is an idea we had what do you guys think?" sort of deal. Schine is clearly looking for community feedback before they commit to turning the game on its head, so telling people to "shut up and like it", to not form an opinion, to not give feedback if they disagree is tantamount to saying the community doesn't matter, when clearly the existence of this proposal and the debate it sparked proves that the community does matter.

That all said, the changes as stated are not my cup of tea, and I would be sad to see them implemented for a number of small reasons relating to the specifics of the system, not the least of which is the way it's clearly an attempt to force interiors to be included in a very clumsy, kludge-y sort of way. To say nothing of the fact that the whole "heat" mechanic, as described, makes very little sense from a thermodynamic perspective...

 

[Comradecolonel]

Awesome! Schine is actually taking the first steps to achieve this. If we as a community actually bothered to read what they've said on this topic, we'd know that this power proposal is them opening up their game design process to the public. You can like or dislike the proposal, that doesn't matter at all. But if you want them to continue in this step, we as a community are going to need to show that we consist of enough mature individuals to deal with it. You want to know what they're thinking? They've just told you. You're not making it clear what you want, do you want them to share more information (which they've just done) or not?

Ever heard of too little too late? Should I be happy that I finally got the courage to study 5 hours before the test? Instead of starting by saying here's what we want to accomplish, they rolled a ready made plan out to us. More importantly no effort was made to keep any conversation in scope. It was just like here talk about it and we'll just read through all the comments. It has been so hard to have a meaningful discussion on the actual proposal because people are too emotional. This was not a good step.

I have seen many features of this game that have been added in broad strokes and then are slowly fine tuned. This is normal. What is not normal is when a game reinvents itself multiple times because of fundamentally incompatible design choices. It could lead to something good but there is still so much to be finished in this game. So many people already have a bitter taste in their mouth from their interactions with the devs. When I see poorly planned moves like this it gets worrisome.

Yea, they don't normally share their plans. You want to know why? Because game development is frustrating, those of us in the industry got here through study and experience. We're professionals, we've been trained to deal with the development process. The customer is not. They are not equipped to do this, they want the results, but they don't want to do, see or hear the hard work. Don't believe me, read the power thread, read what you've said. "We need something better but don't know what it is." That's how it works, despite popular belief, game developers aren't gods, lots and lots of brainstorming occurs. You want more transparency? Then expect to start seeing more "uncertainty" from Schine. You don't know what you want.

First, companies don't normally share their plans because they are competing on the market. They don't want someone taking their plan, especially if there are setbacks, and doing cheaper, better, and faster. That is not the point. A company can do whatever it wants. Maybe to make gains you need to reveal plans and get feedback. Given the context of this announcement, it doesn't bode well for future decisions. Starmade will be finished as long as schema works on it, but will it turn out really all that good?

Secondly, you contradict the hell out of yourself in the second paragraph. How can you say that developers have expertise that players do not at the same time you are defending a developer asking players what direction to take the game? He's asking us because he doesn't know. We don't know either. Nobody has all the answers and that's the point. We should find them together. It seems like Schema is maybe answering his own design questions before we can. This may not be the healthiest way to go about that.

I know exactly what I want. I want to see this game reach it's potential and I want to be a part of that. Too often people get off topic and emotional instead of focusing on real discussion. I've met a lot of smart, motiovated people playing this game and I think we are all capable of better. I think we need to stop attacking each other and DISCUSS THE GAME.

 

[Panpiper]

You know that build system you really liked, that you've spent years learning to master? Well, we're going to scrap the entire thing, junk it, everything you've ever built, everything you've learned, and we're going to replace it with a completely different build system. And just for giggles, the system is going to make even less sense than what it is replacing.

Er... No.

And as for why they are thinking of doing this? All the reasoning for it, the justification, is fatally flawed.

This is a BAD IDEA! This has already destroyed any lingering desire I have to build anything; why bother if it's all going to be a waste of time when they kill this build system to birth a new one.

Not to mention that the new build system, in addition to being vastly worse, is likely going to require an additional few years to bug tweak and play balance, years that would be vastly better served finishing the rest of the game.

If Schine wants to play with a different build system, save it for Starmade 2.0, 'after' they've finished the game they've been building till now.

 

[nightrune]

The OP really missed a chance here to say something impactful, instead, it came across as welcome this particular change. This is not the right way to go about this. Let's put whether you like or dislike the proposal to the side, and address what Schine has actually done.

What's incredibly frustrating to me is this:



Awesome! Schine is actually taking the first steps to achieve this. If we as a community actually bothered to read what they've said on this topic, we'd know that this power proposal is them opening up their game design process to the public. You can like or dislike the proposal, that doesn't matter at all. But if you want them to continue in this step, we as a community are going to need to show that we consist of enough mature individuals to deal with it. You want to know what they're thinking? They've just told you. You're not making it clear what you want, do you want them to share more information (which they've just done) or not?



Yea, they don't normally share their plans. You want to know why? Because game development is frustrating, those of us in the industry got here through study and experience. We're professionals, we've been trained to deal with the development process. The customer is not. They are not equipped to do this, they want the results, but they don't want to do, see or hear the hard work. Don't believe me, read the power thread, read what you've said. "We need something better but don't know what it is." That's how it works, despite popular belief, game developers aren't gods, lots and lots of brainstorming occurs. You want more transparency? Then expect to start seeing more "uncertainty" from Schine. You don't know what you want.

 

[Gasboy]

Yea, they don't normally share their plans.

Actually, companies do share their plans. Usually only to their shareholders though.

But numerous game companies have offered proposals like this. Wargaming has done this a few times for World of Tanks and World of Warships. The community disliked most of the ideas, and several of them were put on the shelf indefinitely. Wargaming has instead decided to create a sandbox environment, where radical changes can be implemented and tested, without raising the ire of the community because the changes are being finalized and put into the game. It's a pure testing environment.

I hope that Schine takes a similar tack, a dev build that stays put for a long period of time for testing of all manner of possibly weird and wacky changes and additions.

 

[KiloZulu]

I've always had my own twist on the phrase: "Change is good...unless it's bad."

Deep wisdom, that.

That's not to say that what Schine is proposing is bad. I think the original power system was bad - it made little sense that the means to power a ship would come from placing long lines that filled the entire ship. A reactor, core, engine, or what have you, makes much more sense. It'll provide much more freedom for ship design, and add in some nice role play potential for the cherry on top.

It is a big change, and it will have a huge impact on existing ships. This isn't the first time that has happened. Having lived through such changes in the past, I learned to build small, build for future possible changes, or not build at all. As impressed as I've been with some of the titans that have been rolled out during this alpha, I cringed to think about their inevitable death via development. All I can say is that players need to recognize the full ramifications of playing a game that is in development. Don't get too attached to anything you build, and don't build anything that you aren't willing to lose or spend time refitting.

 

[Comradecolonel]

I've always had my own twist on the phrase: "Change is good...unless it's bad."

Deep wisdom, that.

That's not to say that what Schine is proposing is bad. I think the original power system was bad - it made little sense that the means to power a ship would come from placing long lines that filled the entire ship. A reactor, core, engine, or what have you, makes much more sense. It'll provide much more freedom for ship design, and add in some nice role play potential for the cherry on top.

Exactly. This was the main reason why I even posted here. I see potential in the new idea, but we shouldn't just accept any change because change is necessary. I prefer logic and reason to heuristic thinking. If the OP wants people to shut up and sit down then provide a meaningful reason to do so. Conflicts should be resolved not ignored.

 

[Lecic]

Change that at best changes nothing and at worst makes the game worse is not and should not be welcomed. This kind of thread is a pointless attempt at circle jerk. Keep your useful discussion to the main thread, and your pointless discussion in your own head. I will not be responding to anything anyone says to me here- if you had something important to say, you would post it in the actual thread.

 

[EricBlank]

In this case I think the change to power will be an overall benefit; it'll be more interesting setting up working reactors, and will inspire more interesting uses of space around those core components. Think this change will be fun.

 

[Ghent96]

Okay guys, please be a fanboi with me and kiss Schine's ring no matter what...

no

 

[KaRe]

I honestly will almost always hold a neutral stance. I couldn't care what is introduced, as long as it doesn't require overzealous amounts of work without it being powerful. Just like how I will slowly wrap my head around logic, I will slowly wrap my head around whatever is to come.