USDs are obsolete, so let's agree to fix them!

[Aylad]

Edit: never mind, thanks for clicking I learned something new about rail movement from Olxinos and Sven the Slayer, and my entire point below turns out to be invalid :D

Original post:

Having a standard Universal Serial Dock is wonderful for the community, but the existing design has been obsolete since pickup rails were released. If you've ever tried to use pickup rails to auto dock USDs, you know what I'm talking about. Your ship looks like a hamster navigating an invisible maze.

A simple solution is to slightly reposition the rail docker and rail basic so the arrows are pointing upward. Manual docking works the same way. Pickup docking only requires the docking ship to move upward a bit before moving toward the dock - almost without regard for where the USD is placed. Simple logic and an inner ship remote can reposition the rails to enable docking with legacy USDs.

Obviously this will only work on a large scale if the community gets behind it, so what do you think?

 

[Olxinos]

Are you talking about that kind of auto-docking?
I don't see the problem with the good old USD.

 

[Jake_Lancia]

I don't think this is a good idea.

The current USD is intuitive, simple and easy to use. Everyone knows what it is and how it works. In contrast, your 'solution' to this non-existent problem simply complicates everything. And who the hell auto-docks a USD ship anyway -_-

 

[terra mining corp.]

just put a aux docking rail on the bottom of ship also,it works much better as I like to put multiple docking styles on a station and direct traffic.

 

[therimmer96]

Once I get home tomorrow, I'll demonstrate the way to fix your problem without demanding that the community change a deeply integrated standard. Dead simple to fix, I just can't explain it

 

[Lukwan]

Wouldn't it be a better idea to add a new rail-docker with the orientation you are looking for? This would facilitate the auto-docking you are after without rendering the existing dock obsolete. Its like USB-3; you can add things but the old hardware must be grandfathered in.

Also, you will have to decide what is the universal vector of approach. Does the docking ship slide up, down, fore or aft?

Can you design it to slide towards the dock instead?

 

[Aylad]

I don't think this is a good idea.

The current USD is intuitive, simple and easy to use. Everyone knows what it is and how it works. In contrast, your 'solution' to this non-existent problem simply complicates everything. And who the hell auto-docks a USD ship anyway -_-

I don't see how my solution complicates anything, except the obvious issue with dealing with legacy designs, but that's basic logic. Minor complication at worst. And why wouldn't we auto dock USDs? People do.

just put a aux docking rail on the bottom of ship also,it works much better as I like to put multiple docking styles on a station and direct traffic.

Wouldn't it be a better idea to add a new rail-docker with the orientation you are looking for? This would facilitate the auto-docking you are after without rendering the existing dock obsolete. Its like USB-3; you can add things but the old hardware must be grandfathered in.

Also, you will have to decide what is the universal vector of approach. Does the docking ship slide up, down, fore or aft?

Can you design it to slide towards the dock instead?

Both these suggestions - to add a new rail docker - are actually more complicated than what I'm proposing. The whole point of a USD is to not have multiple docking collars for specific situations.

I don't (no one does) have to choose a universal approach vector, either. My proposal is more flexible than existing designs.

As for grandfathering in old designs, I believe I mentioned that a little simple logic would accomplish that.

Sliding directly toward the dock would be easy, but less intuitive and flexible. The rail docker would need to be turned to the side, with the docking face turned outward and the arrows pointing into the ship. That would make it hard to incorporate into more elaborate rail designs and would not be as obvious what's going on.

Once I get home tomorrow, I'll demonstrate the way to fix your problem without demanding that the community change a deeply integrated standard. Dead simple to fix, I just can't explain it

I look forward to seeing it. If I don't understand the most efficient way to use pickup rails, I'm desperate to learn.

Also, please don't claim that I'm demanding anything. Actually, I'm demanding that you recognize a simple discussion for what it is, rather than a list of demands.
[doublepost=1468772181,1468771711][/doublepost]

Are you talking about that kind of auto-docking?
I don't see the problem with the good old USD.

Sorry, I missed replying to this at first. Try an experiment, if you will. Make a small cube ship with a USD like that one on at least 3-4 faces, and keep in mind that if you manually undock you really need the pickup point to be well clear of the direct line to the USD, else you'll just redock as you try to exit. See what contorted pickup rail designs you have to make to get out lined up properly each time.

 

[Lukwan]

Both these suggestions - to add a new rail docker - are actually more complicated than what I'm proposing. The whole point of a USD is to not have multiple docking collars for specific situations.

Did I say build several designs?...no I did not. I was reminding you that it was possible to design an improved version of the USD that would ALSO work with existing builds.

therimmer96 sounds like they get the idea. I will wait to see what solution there is for this challenge.

 

[Aylad]

Did I say build several designs?...no I did not. I was reminding you that it was possible to design an improved version of the USD that would ALSO work with existing builds.

therimmer96 sounds like they get the idea. I will wait to see what solution there is for this challenge.

I'm sorry, Lukwan. I obviously misunderstood you when you said:

Wouldn't it be a better idea to add a new rail-docker with the orientation you are looking for?

Yes, it's actually not hard at all to use logic to optionally reconfigure existing designs as far as the visible, solid docking rails go. That's what I'm going to end up doing on the server I play on.

The only issue is that pickup rail systems are not so easily reconfigured on the fly.

I'm trying to open discussion with the community at large, because if my redesign or something similar becomes common practice, it could simplify pickup rail designs for everyone.

I'm also eager to be told/shown why I'm wrong, if I am, so therimmer96 will hopefully come through.

 

[Olxinos]

Sorry, I missed replying to this at first. Try an experiment, if you will. Make a small cube ship with a USD like that one on at least 3-4 faces, and keep in mind that if you manually undock you really need the pickup point to be well clear of the direct line to the USD, else you'll just redock as you try to exit. See what contorted pickup rail designs you have to make to get out lined up properly each time.

I still don't really see the problem (except that I prefer to shoot the beam at a rail basic rather than carefully approaching a structure to avoid collisions like in the first dock x'])

 

[Aylad]

I still don't really see the problem (except that I prefer to shoot the beam at a rail basic rather than carefully approaching a structure to avoid collisions like in the first dock x'])

Hey, thanks for posting this. The problem shows up best about halfway through your video. Do you get docked? Of course you do... But you're following this twisted multi-direction tangle of pickup real and an observer (or even first person flight mode) would see a really mechanical immersion-breaking series of movements. That's what I'm suggesting a fix for.

It's also a good example of how someone's earlier claim that my idea is "counterintuitive" is based on habit, rather than intuitive practices. Nothing is intuitive about building pickup rail tracks like that. There are easier ways to auto-dock USDs.

As far as shooting a docking beam, well, to each their own. I hate doing that in anything isanth-sized or larger. My redesign does nothing to remove that ability, though.

 

[jstenholt]

Let's not break down the farm because we got a new tractor, people.

Olxinos's design is great, and the small animation it goes through while docking is negligible.

If you want to create your own design that avoids this infinitesimally small problem, you can do that.

 

[Olxinos]

Hey, thanks for posting this. The problem shows up best about halfway through your video. Do you get docked? Of course you do... But you're following this twisted multi-direction tangle of pickup real and an observer (or even first person flight mode) would see a really mechanical immersion-breaking series of movements. That's what I'm suggesting a fix for.

It's also a good example of how someone's earlier claim that my idea is "counterintuitive" is based on habit, rather than intuitive practices. Nothing is intuitive about building pickup rail tracks like that. There are easier ways to auto-dock USDs.

As far as shooting a docking beam, well, to each their own. I hate doing that in anything isanth-sized or larger. My redesign does nothing to remove that ability, though.

At 2:20? The docker is just aligning to the pickup rail, then there are exactly two different movements (going up+going forward). All these movements are unavoidable except if:
- you don't care if the pickup point is in front of the USD (first video)
- you only "slide" into place along the surface of the ship... which by the way is often unfeasible because of greeble on the sides of the ship (I could have placed the pickup rails to make it work that way too, but I think it's a bit weird)

I don't really see how changing the rail docker orientation can solve any of that :/
Besides even if that would somehow allow smoother docking with pickup rails, I don't think it's worth breaking the compatibility with already equipped vessels. Not to mention very few people are actually docking this way.

We don't want a standard multiplication either, especially if they are nearly identical but incompatible.

(xkcd 927)

 

[Aylad]

Let's not break down the farm because we got a new tractor, people.

Olxinos's design is great, and the small animation it goes through while docking is negligible.

If you want to create your own design that avoids this infinitesimally small problem, you can do that.

In the wild, from Lenscap's recent stream:
Skip to 59:10 to see the "negligible" problem. Then understand that it took probably 40 minutes for a talented builder to figure out how convoluted his rails needed to be to even work.

There was a military coup in Turkey, did you hear? A fly in my soup is an infinitesimal problem. I'm not gonna eat the soup. Not when there's a better bowl being offered.

I'll sit back now and wait to see what therimmer96 has.
[doublepost=1468787677,1468784484][/doublepost]Hey guys, wanted to say, sorry if I seem a little irritable in some of my replies. Obviously I didn't expect everyone to start redesigning their ships based on a comment from me :P but it caught me by surprise that most people's response was "what problem? I don't see the problem." Either a lot of people haven't spent much time trying to auto dock USDs, or else I'm just way too nitpicky and no one else is bothered by the awkwardness involved.

Lenscap's response was that I had a nice solution to "a problem that a lot of players didn't realize they had." I guess I didn't take that phrase literally enough. :D

Anyway, still hoping that I've actually just been doing it wrong from the beginning, and that there's a better solution.

 

[Olxinos]

I don't know this Lenscap, but in his case something like this would've worked for instance:

You just have to change the orientation of the pickup rail next to the pickup point to match the rail docker and that's about it :p

 

[Aylad]

I don't know this Lenscap, but in his case something like this would've worked for instance:

You just have to change the orientation of the pickup rail next to the pickup point to match the rail docker and that's about it :p

So the rails don't have to actually point into the next line? That's not what I expected, and isn't intuitive. That definitely is an improvement though.

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

I personally don't use pickup rails on my USDs but instead put the pickup point directly on the dock. The reason behind this decision is an easy one. What if I have a larger ship docking? I would have to have the mass enhancers on the dock to ensure that the ship can move. If the ship is stationary when I dock directly to it I never have to worry about moving it so I never have to worry about mass enhancers.

If you do decide to extend your docking range with pickup rails you also don't need complex paths. Remember they are non-tangible so you can pass right through them.

 

[Aylad]

If you do decide to extend your docking range with pickup rails you also don't need complex paths. Remember they are non-tangible so you can pass right through them.

Yeah, I knew about them being non-tangible. It's a nice feature. What I didn't know was that the arrangement you and Olxinos show above is actually viable. Intuitively, I assumed that the rail would need to point into the next line. Knowing that this works basically invalidates my whole idea, but as I stated a few times, I'm thrilled to understand these things better :D

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

Yeah, I knew about them being non-tangible. It's a nice feature. What I didn't know was that the arrangement you and Olxinos show above is actually viable. Intuitively, I assumed that the rail would need to point into the next line. Knowing that this works basically invalidates my whole idea, but as I stated a few times, I'm thrilled to understand these things better :D

Yeah the possibilities we get with pickup rails are quite immense. If two rails are touching the docker it will move along which ever one is a valid path. You dock to the one rail and it has no where to go so it's easily moved along the other path. Problems will arise if you get more than one valid path and it will probably choose whatever path the game calculates first.

 

[Mork2]

With some experimentation a couple things you should remember while setting up this auto docking addon to the USD.

Make sure no blocks that require you to manual switch them is in the same square as one of the pickup rails when docked. Or you won't be able to activate them. In my case my test ship core was in the same spot as a pickup rail and I was unable to enter it to undock.

When undocking you have to get away from the pickup point within 5 seconds or you re-dock. So you probably want the pickup point relatively close to the USD so you don't accidentally redock on your way out.

The same pickup rail setup can be used to vertically land ships onto a pad.