Read by Schine Schine, your Map View is terrible (and how to fix it)

    Master_Artificer

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    Okay, so admittidly it is better than
    but what we have now is not acceptable. This has been a long time coming, and I think now starmade is getting close to where the current system is negatively effecting the game than adding anything really of benefit.




    First off, the good: Schema, your way of making boxes of space is good, the sectors in a 16^3 space is a system, and systems being a logarithmic unit of navigating the galaxy with is useful.. In fact, it is logarithmic "steps" like these, that starmade needs to allow players to navigate the universe. The systems themselves are arranged into abstract shapes that look like they might be cosmic structures, and bring order to the universe.

    Now, what we have is this is a VERY clunky system. The main criticisms I have also rely on whether you wish this game to continue to be arcade-y with cartoon-y microscopic solar systems and "galaxy's" that are currently bad jokes.
    Schine, you have only 2 units, sectors and systems, and make it hard to navigate around inside of the universe you created. To examine the other side of the galaxy you need to hold shift and rapidly tap w,a,s,d,e, and q to move your camera over. Or you could try to double-click on a object like a star (or object in the system) but if there is another object directly behind it then it seems it focuses on whatever you didn't wish to look at.
    The amount of tools you have at your disposal is pretty much getting the names of objects by moving your mouse cursor over them and also selecting a sector. Very limiting and disappointingly sparse.



    First off, we need to break down sectors and systems and rethink how to use them.
    The most basic and smallest unit is the block, and a sector has been typically made up of 2000x2000x2000 blocks, although most prefer to go larger when setting up servers. Physically (well technically its virtually) traveling in the game involves you moving around these grids until you hit the edge of that grid, and move to another grid, usually seamlessly now.

    Fields



    The sector, which we will need to rename, for now Field (place holder, but I have the word sector coined for another step. What about Zone? Acre? Tract? Plot?) would be the second smallest unit, and the smallest unit of the galactic map that one can work with. It is one of the most noticeable units of space that would impact players, one could be inside of a star or in total vacuum depending on the Field type, and they would all have their own set of BIOMES and RULES to adhere to. Each Field would be functionally identical to what we have today in other aspects. They could contain planets, gas giants, moons, asteroids, rings, space stations, or nothing... They are the most down to earth component and interacted with the most, while the others are more abstract and like borders drawn on a map.

    Neighborhoods

    The system will have the most fundamental changes to it, as I will be reworking it entirely. Now, to preserve the positional code, each system; or as we will be referring to them, Neighborhoods (or Quadrants, Range, Section, Stratum?) would contain 16^3 Fields. Neighborhoods would be a less tangible thing, and just an easy way to maneuver around in the map view to get from one side of the System to the other. Neighborhoods would be a subdivision of the new Systems, which would be a 4x4x4 of Neighborhoods. This vastly increases the size of solar systems we have to work with, and gives us a HUGE amount of creative freedom to work with. Neighborhoods would not have biomes nor would they effect the Fields inside of them. When looking in the map at Fields (like the sectors we look at now) we can use shift+movement keys to quickly move our point of focus around the System's 4x4x4 boxes. To recap, it is a less tangible unit of measurement and used out of convenience for moving around in systems and out of nessesity for the code. After all, it is a damn fine foundation. Players when moving from Neighborhood to Neighborhood would not feel anything different like moving from Field to Field or across System Boundaries to other Systems, and the boundaries looking at the most zoomed in System mode are not necessarily visible unless holding shift when fast traveling around the System.


    Systems:







    >Sensors detect a hostile fleet entering your System
    >Sensors detect a hostile fleet entering your System
    >Sensors detect a hostile fleet entering your System

    >Sensors detect a hostile fleet entering your System
    >Sensors detect a hostile fleet entering your System
    >Sensors detect a hostile fleet entering your System
    >Sensors detect a hostile fleet entering your System
    >Sensors detect a hostile fleet entering your System
    >Sensors detect a hostile fleet entering your System

    *Flight of the Valkyries plays*
    DOOOOVVVVVIIIIIAAAAAAANNNNNNNNSSSSSS!!!!!!
    Now, the next unit up, the new Systems that I mentioned when talking about the Neighborhoods. Systems are the fundamental units of Sectors (that's why I needed the name change of old sectors to Fields) and contain a 4x4x4 matrix of Neighborhoods, aka a 64x64x64 box of of Fields. This is a huge increase in volume compaired the the systems we are used to, Each System would be 64 Neighborhoods in total, aka 262,144 Fields (compared to 4,096 that we currently have, so a increase in volume 64 fold). The types of systems you can find is governed by a set of rules from the Sector. Depending on the sectors type and location, the System could be a crowded place with 3+ stars or be completely void space.
    Now, originating from the star is a series of spheres to form a type of "Heat" gradient out though the system.
    • First their is the star itself, I would never recommend actually entering the star as it will vaporize your ship through the energy held in the plasma and the gravity/pressure/radiation of being in that situation.
    • Then we have the Burn Zone, to make a comparison to our own solar system, this would fall well within the orbit of Mercury. It would function sort of similar to what we have now, with ships being damaged traveling this close to their sun. No asteroids or stations would generate in this shell, but in the discussion of anomalies, you could have Hot Jupiter's, Hot Neptune's, or even rocky planets frozen in their death spiral inhabiting this shell. Elliptical orbits could also carry objects into this zone theoretically, most common and abundant of this example would be comets.
    • Next is the Evaporate Zone (name pending), a hellish place where rivers of molten rock flow on the surface of planets. Significantly cooler than the Burn Zone however! Generally planets like mercury could be found here, barren and cratered, with no atmosphere and slow rotation/tidally locked to the host star. If flares are ever implemented, then this is not a place to hang out when activity starts up.
    • And now we have our favorite temperature sphere, the Habitable Zone. In the inner edge, dry desert planets like mars would be habitable to life while potential ocean planets like would puff like Venus. On the outer edges of the Habitable zone, Oceanic worlds with their thick atmospheres would be still habitable while desert planets would turn into ice balls. The "frost line" would also exist inside of the habitable zone, where solid ice would be able to persist while being exposed to sunlight without sublimating. In our own solar system, this band would streach from the inside of Venus's orbit to half way to Jupiter, encompassing Mars and some of the asteroid belt.
    • The Gasses Zone would be the typical romping ground for gas giants like Jupiter and Saturn. This band would have plenty of ices like water ice, dry ice, and other low freezing point volitiles, but still be too warm for frozen nitrogen and methane.
    • The Ices Zone would be an analog to where our own ice giants reside, Uranus and Neptune, and would be cold enough to have the majority of the rest of the stuff we think of as gases to be frozen and soild as ice, with water ice functioning as basically rock (white shiny rock) like our silicate rocks we have here on earth.
    • Those are the shells close enough to the star to have "normal" planets, that are in the orbits that they formed in, every other shell from here on out will be what is beyond that. First is the Kuiper Belt of Star Systems, the scattered disk, the remnants of the very outer edge of the accretion disks, the belts of materials thrown out when the planets formed (specifically the gas giants) and while it holds a huge amount of material, it has an even larger amount of volume. It could be that there are rocks in every Field of the Kuiper Belt, but most of the time it is just one or two asteroids or comets (icy asteroids) with maybe a very small (5% or less) chance of having more than 2. This area is a haven for dwarf planets; moon sized objects that orbit in strange paths compared to the near circular orbits we are used to thinking about when we think about planets.
    • Past that is the heliopause, and a open shell before you get to the last shell that also contains the Oort Cloud. In the Oort cloud you get a chance of a rock per Field, it will take vast tracks of space to be mined before you get a sizable sum of resources, but it is still way more efficient than mining in void space or in nebulae.
    This was a brief rundown on the "biomes" that govern the creation and population of Systems with objects.
    I have another whole segment that would really flesh this idea out more and involve multi-star systems, which would end up being the slight majority of all systems out there. Currently Systems contain 1-2 belts and an average of 3 planets, I would hope that in a redesigned universe a fleshed out solar system would potentially have hundreds of objects that are not just stations but naturally formed bodies to explore, name, and exploit (or you could have your fleets/friends go do that for you).

    Sectors:




    Sectors contain a 16x16x16 box of Systems, which is also a 64x64x64 box of Neighborhoods, and also a 1024x1024x1024 box of Fields, to put it in perspective. These are the units in the galactic view that make up a galaxy. Where they are in the galactic sense determines the biome consistency of the Systems inside of them. Once again, I have a whole other section I will dedicate to this project.
    • For example, sectors in the galaxy arms will have great looking nebulae, and big bright young stars.
    • Globular clusters and the bulge of galaxies and center of elliptical galaxies would have dusty, old, puffed up stars, packed very close together with little to no void systems.

    Our own galaxy arms with the local group in the center of the image. The space between galaxy arms is filled with the same amount of stars, but the arms have the new born stars, the giant (short lived) stars, and the concentrated gas and dust which makes pretty background nebula.

    Then we have the types of galaxies, the types of objects that orbit galaxies, and dwarf galaxies.
    But that is a thread for another day.
     
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    Great. I love realism (I'm probably going into the astrophysics field in college) and would love a similar system.

    Big problem, however: Gravity and orbits. Right now, a planet can't exceed the size of a sector without causing many issues. To change the size of a system like this would almost require larger planets to fit with the theme of larger stars, and that'd require some change that allows entities to stretch between individual units, whether you call them sectors or fields.
     
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    Most likely, the size of sectors/fields/(insertfinalname) would have to be increased - or transitions would need to be spot-on perfect and uninterrupted, in order to accommodate this (WITHOUT config fiddling).
    I like the idea of more natural objects and larger systems, and the system you've put forward seems solid.
    On the other hand, it is, at its core, just blowing up the current measurements and throwing a couple new ones in.
    But hey, if it works ...
     
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    Master_Artificer

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    Most likely, the size of sectors/fields/(insertfinalname) would have to be increased - or transitions would need to be spot-on perfect and uninterrupted, in order to accommodate this (WITHOUT config fiddling).
    I like the idea of more natural objects and larger systems, and the system you've put forward seems solid.
    On the other hand, it is, at its core, just blowing up the current measurements and throwing a couple new ones in.
    But hey, if it works ...
    Well currently you can have sector sizes anywhere from 2km to 200km(why) and the game handles that pretty well. Sector er, Field Size is determined based on how the server wants it, this does not require the minimum or maximum to change at all, just the overall scale of things in the Map View, which I hope to flesh out a LOT for you guys tomorrow.
     
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    With sun damage added now I would really love a more expanded structure to systems or whatever you want to call them, the problem becomes balance between realism and game-play and Starmade does seem to have a more arcade style to it. A lot of people do want more realism but one problem is, empty space is boring and you don't want to kill game-play by making things too big. Another thing to consider is as you expand other systems need to be expanded to compensate, jump drives and if we ever get those hyper drives.

    I agree Universes should be expanded but I wonder if this proposal is taking it to the other extreme. Right now everything is too close. Even making the sector sizes larger doesn't help. It increases the physical distance between objects but everything still feels too cluttered. The may be a happy middle ground somewhere between what we have no and this proposal.
     

    Ithirahad

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    Well currently you can have sector sizes anywhere from 2km to 200km(why) and the game handles that pretty well. Sector er, Field Size is determined based on how the server wants it, this does not require the minimum or maximum to change at all, just the overall scale of things in the Map View, which I hope to flesh out a LOT for you guys tomorrow.
    I don't think we need sectors above maybe 10km. With the current planet spacing, though, you need sectors around 60km just to make space look OK, which brings up other problems because people will fill sectors with tons of crap and cause massive server load.
     
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    DrTarDIS

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    i always figured 256km sectors with up to 32 stations and a heavy seed to the asteroids would help with scale. Don't we have config for that? I think we have config for that...I 'm going to go play with the config for that.
     
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    Bench

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    Good read, some interesting thoughts there. I expected though at the end OP would return to the galaxy map with their proposed solution and explain their thoughts on improving the galaxy map, considering that was what was highlighted as the issue at the start.
     

    Ithirahad

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    Good read, some interesting thoughts there. I expected though at the end OP would return to the galaxy map with their proposed solution and explain their thoughts on improving the galaxy map, considering that was what was highlighted as the issue at the start.
    They mean "galaxy map" in the same sense that one might say "TF2 map" - they mean the game world. An equally valid application of the term.
     

    Bench

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    They mean "galaxy map" in the same sense that one might say "TF2 map" - they mean the game world. An equally valid application of the term.
    Then why include an image of the galaxy map talking about the mechanics of navigating through that exact screen
     
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    Good read, some interesting thoughts there. I expected though at the end OP would return to the galaxy map with their proposed solution and explain their thoughts on improving the galaxy map, considering that was what was highlighted as the issue at the start.
    Well the OP did threate... I mean imply that he would be posting a second part to this tomorrow, perhaps then we'll know.

    As for the suggestion so far, I can dig it. Breaking up systems into smaller chunks, for instance, could be used to give clearer goals to faction warfare, perhaps an extra bonus for controlling an entire system vs. just a few cubic parsecs (incidentally, a decent unit of volume but a terrible description for a level of map detail).

    So I guess I'm for the base concept but not quite sold on the specifics.
     
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    As far as the spamming qweasd while holding shift to move around you can open your nav menu and put in the coordinate for the next galaxy over I think a value difference of 2048 or (multiples if more than one galaxy away) should work then click the select button on the galaxy map.

    You can also enable draw other galaxies in the graphics (system intensive) then mouse wheel out and click on a star in that galaxy.

    The map navigation could use some work, I agree.
    I would like to see the number of systems/sectors moved, when holding shift, change depending upon your zoom level. Include a scale indicator in the purple info window at the bottom, to the right of the warp gates button. The scale should indicate how far pressing qweasd keys will move you when holding left shift.

    Give galaxies a focal point to double click on, should people choose not to enable "draw other galaxies" option.

    To decrease computer strain and increase ease of use of the map, with draw other galaxies off, the map should only render details of the galaxy your map cursor is in, as opposed to currently it only renders details of the galaxy your person is in.

    I need a tl/dr on this as I got lost when it started out as "this map interface is horrible" then it went into " we should make the galaxies bigger with more pieces".

    I think this post needs to be broken into two posts, one addressing the usability of the galactic map, and another post to deal with additional galaxy flavor like biomes, universe generation, and places of interests like nebulae and such. Or place that second part in this thread Recognized - Galaxy Redesign and new types of Galaxy.
     

    Az14el

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    Had a good convo with a mr Blobs, they weren't a fan of jump drives, played pre JD, when everyone was a stones throw from eachother
    Basically the travel system itself is pretty unhealthy, even with chain drives, because the game is so goddam vast the only way to really find another person (reliably, you can always get lucky afterall) is to jump right to their homebase or watch chat for anyone giving out coords on general. So naturally this thread came up.

    Not a huge fan of the current galaxy map, and i love the ideas in here other than how reset-y they sound.
    One thing, if we get a galaxy/map update, add something to help us find folks and "be social"! like SM Tinder except absolutely not.

    Here's what we came up with anyway.
    Show areas of activity on the galaxy map, or give us some way to ping it for activity, some kind of long range scanner, could even be station based or "networked" like warp gates. Or just integrate the inevitable scanner update into the galaxy map in some way.

    It's real quiet out there sometimes
     
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    The galaxy shouldn't be a very populous place. There's a lot of ways and places to get lost out in space.

    The solution is probably going to be to make space dangerous, so you can't always go everywhere. And then to improve scanners so they can be used to find people hiding out in various places. Also, we definitely need ways to more reliably travel large distances, other than chaindrives.

    Perhaps a method to aim a warpgate (At suitable power cost, exponentially greater the closer you try to warp to someone's base or territory) at a particular system or sector and end up in a randomized location within said system or sector (But not at risk of death, so no spawns in stars or pirate bases)....with a large cooldown. That'd allow for faster travel, within reason.
     

    Ithirahad

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    Just add continuous FTL drives. Not that hard, at least design-wise. The capital-ship FTL system could be a wormhole projector that lets you make a wormhole to anywhere within a few systems from you that a whole fleet can fly through, instead.
     
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    Wasn't there some dev chatter about being able to track enemy fleets? I seem to recall some talk about seeing fleet movement on the map so you could plan an ambush.

    Also, the trouble with faster travel is that people will just push out farther in the same amount of time. It's an issue that I think ought to wait til we have more reasons to interact built in.
     

    Master_Artificer

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    For all of you guys talking about needing big sector sizes (fields, zones, maybe I can't change the name...) I was thinking that the size wouldnt need to increase, just keep it the same at 5-10km.
    I am working on the tools that the map mode needs but it is taking a while to draft and review, sorry about the delay.
     

    Az14el

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    Just add continuous FTL drives. Not that hard, at least design-wise. The capital-ship FTL system could be a wormhole projector that lets you make a wormhole to anywhere within a few systems from you that a whole fleet can fly through, instead.
    Would be a nice replacement for the currently underwhelming warp gate system, though I still do like the idea of specific structures for fast travel (when they actually work like that, and not just on paper)