Recognized Weapons ought to be more specialized

[sayerulz]

I doubt that I am alone in thinking that a single weapon system should not be able to serve all of your ships needs. One should have to use different weapon combos for different things. Now, we do have some of this- cannon pulse is certainly not what one wants for anti-fighter weapons. But their are still a number of weapon combos that seem far too good at everything. Cannon-cannon, for example, seems like pretty much the go-to weapon for anything. Sure, high-alpha beams might be better for knocking out shields quicker, but cannon/cannon still works for that, and is much better for block destruction.

The biggest example, to me at least, seems to be missile-missile. I don't think that I am alone in thinking that this combo is kind of broken. Skill has no effect on how effective it is, it's a laggy mess, and it allows capital ships to hit fighters with their mounted weapons- something I think should require turrets.

I think that their are a number of things, some of which I have seen mentioned elsewhere, that should be done to encourage ships not to have just one weapon system for everything.

-Make missiles that have more damage turn slower: this will make it so that huge capital-ship missiles are not effective on fighters.

-Make armor value increase based on total armor HP: This is one I can possibly see not working, but my idea is that higher-alpha, lower RoF weapons should be what one wants in order to break a capital ships armor, but that high-RoF weapons are still ideal against fighters.

My actual ideas for this are a bit spare now, I may update this as I think of new ones, but my brain seems to have abandoned me right now.

My basic idea, though, is to encourage ships to have different weapon systems that serve different roles, and that no system should be good against everything.

 

[Groovrider]

Weapons are as specialized as a player wants them to be. I have yet to see any effective ship that relies on a single weapon system. I do not consider myself an expert at this game but a typical load out for me is:

Missile/cannon artillery
Beam/emp + beam/explosive combo turrets
Cannon/overdrive
Cannon/cannon/ion
beam/overdrive
Beam/beam/overdrive
Missile/Missile/overdrive + explosive (logic weapons)
Missile/beam/explosive
Missile/pulse/overdrive

I see no evidence of this problem existing to the degree that you believe.

 

[Ixalite]

I share your wish that weapons combinations be more specialized.
I once had a mod setup to the config files that made the following changes:

Engines less efficient the larger the group
Shields less efficient to regen the larger the group
increased power consumption per extra emitter in a group
Cannon + Cannon flat rate damage of 50 per shot. (no matter how many blocks, always shoots for 50 damage)
Missile + cannon flat rate of 250 per shot, power balanced accordingly, faster rate of fire.
Missile + missile NEW WEAPON TYPE 5 round burst flat rate 250 damage unguided
Missile + beam damage reduced
Missile + pulse speed reduced somewhat
Beam + cannon range reduced
Beam + pulse power consumption increased
All Kenetic effects (push, pull, etc and push pulse) Drastically increased
Warhead damage drastically increased, while radius remains the same


I realize that this is just reducing the power of the most powerful weapons systems rather than buffing other weapons to make them balance that way, but I think the overall reduction in power level does two important things.
First, fighters actually benefit from the flat-rate weapons and can use them to great effect against both each-other, and against larger targets. Second, Capital ships move more slowly, and their shields regenerate MUCH more slowly. Additionally, the weapons that would allow them to easily target fighters are now not much more powerful than the systems the fighters mount. A capital ship in battle must rely on turrets and escorts rather than being able to kill fighters by the score with primary weapons.

 

[Micro753]

-Make missiles that have more damage turn slower: this will make it so that huge capital-ship missiles are not effective on fighters.

This definitely needs to be implemented. The rest of the weapons system I am fine with as it is now.

 

[Lecic]

I doubt that I am alone in thinking that a single weapon system should not be able to serve all of your ships needs.

This is already in the game.

One should have to use different weapon combos for different things.

This is already in the game. If you're not using different weapon combos for different things, you are a moron.

Cannon-cannon, for example, seems like pretty much the go-to weapon for anything.

Cannon/Cannon definitely has problems with being a superior weapon type to the other cannon types. I will give you that.

Sure, high-alpha beams might be better for knocking out shields quicker, but cannon/cannon still works for that, and is much better for block destruction.

Is this a joke? Beam/Pulse and Cannon/Cannon fill completely separate roles. Cannon/cannon is worthless if you need to alpha strike someone.

The biggest example, to me at least, seems to be missile-missile. I don't think that I am alone in thinking that this combo is kind of broken. Skill has no effect on how effective it is, it's a laggy mess, and it allows capital ships to hit fighters with their mounted weapons- something I think should require turrets.

Missile/Missile is not something that needs even the slightest worrying about. It's easy to outrun, it's easy to make it deal almost no damage, and it's completely useless in a fleet engagement. Anyone dumb enough to bring missile/missile to a fleet engagement deserves what comes to them.

Cannon + Cannon flat rate damage of 50 per shot. (no matter how many blocks, always shoots for 50 damage)
Missile + cannon flat rate of 250 per shot, power balanced accordingly, faster rate of fire.
Missile + missile NEW WEAPON TYPE 5 round burst flat rate 250 damage unguided

So, let me get this straight- you made cannon/cannon completely worthless (you can barely scratch anything above basic hull with that), you nerfed a med/high tier weapon into complete uselessness, and you nerfed swarmers so bad that only an idiot would use them?

 

[jstenholt]

Yeah, weapons are far from perfect now, but nobody who understands them would argue that they are too similar.

If you're not using different weapon combos for different things, you are a moron.

Also, I kek'd.

 

[Lukwan]

I am not a fan of over using heat-seekers. The lag is the main issue for me and feel they are a low-skill alternative for a lot of people. However I still use them in my slower ships and they have their place in the game. I would be happy to see countermeasures like Flares introduced to teach people not to rely on Missile-Missile. Using fewer, but very powerful M+M groups helps with reducing lag.

 

[Valiant70]

The biggest problem with missile-missile is the combination of spread fire and heat-seeking. This makes it too easy to get a ton of munitions in the air with no skill involved. Spread-fire is powerful against antimissile systems and should not be combined with instant lock-on. I have thought for a long time that heat-seeking should be changed to missile-cannon and missile-missile should just be a spread of dumbfires to be used either at point-blank range or as decoys.

 

[Madman198237]

Well, as Lecic said....anyone bringing a large missile-missile array to a fleet battle well and truly deserves what they will get.
Although, if they do, we want a video of the results. It'll be awesomely destructive.
Because nothing's less friendly than friendly fire.

 

[Master_Artificer]

Missile/Missile is not something that needs even the slightest worrying about. It's easy to outrun, it's easy to make it deal almost no damage, and it's completely useless in a fleet engagement. Anyone dumb enough to bring missile/missile to a fleet engagement deserves what comes to them.

I like the part where an enemy of ours completely shot out their friends "titan" from under him with logic swarmers while we just kinda sat and watched...

Also swarmers are still kinda... broken. Reducing the output to 5 missiles (1 missile every 20% slaved) or reduce the damage overall it does on a block for block basis would be better.
For small ships with less than 1000 blocks per output on Cannon-Cannons, punch is the way to go, because of the extra block damage (which means it can travel through ships farther), extra armor bar damage, and no downsides to shields damage or to energy consumption means that if you are not using punch your playing the game wrong. :p
(for larger output arrays, a 10% explosive effect is desirable, and same with cannon beams, 10% explosive)


If you are feeling trollish, cannon-cannon-stop's in big waffle patterns (the strength of the stop seems to be related to how many projectiles are hitting and the power consumed to fire it, not the strength of the projectile. So aka lots of outputs to one computer between 20-100 blocks per barrel.) on a "fire at selected" with yourself using a cannon-cannon-emp or beam-cannon-emp is tragically effective. Around 12-16k blocks total between 80-100% emp effect is something like 2.1-2.5 million power damage a second. Thrusters on big ships consume gobs of energy. Sheild regen is also EXTREMELY expensive energy wise and increases the lower the shields get (due to the shield formula). Thus, 90% of the time even with docked reactors, EMP ships can shut-you-down!

 

[MacThule]

Fighters can easily outrun most missiles unless they plow right into them. Make sure your fighters are pretty small and very fast. Not only do they outrun missiles, at top speeds even the AI turrets have a hard time tracking them. I've danced fighters around large multi-turret capitals and even enemy bases for extended periods never taking more than the odd cannon hit by chance.

I do think missile-beam weapons are still a little OP and the meta on cannon-cannon is also very dominating. But this is specialized.
Missiles are great for long-range alpha, but are weak against fast craft and vulnerable to point-defense turrets. Beams offer very high alpha as mentioned for dropping shields or other effects like pull, stop, EMP. Cannon are excellent close-in weapons with few weaknesses other than their short range and difficulty to aim against more mobile targets. Beams could use a bit of a buff, IMO, as could point defense capability, but the weapon systems are much closer to reaching balance than they used to be.
[DOUBLEPOST=1460521025,1460520851][/DOUBLEPOST]If you want to defeat those cannon-cannon monsters, go for speed and range. Super high thrust, range missiles and sniper beams/cannons. Don't engage head on at close range. Consider push/pull effects on your thrust to allow for fast, drastic changes in your ship's trajectory when a Cc user is all over you.

What makes the Cc (Cannon-cannon) meta frustratingly difficult to deal with is that though the range is limited, it's still set by the system, not meters. So you can move out of range, but when you do you risk losing your target entirely and the sector transition issues can cause aiming problems for your ranged weapons. The sweet spot for tackling Cc beasts is relatively narrow in practice, even when you're equipped with formidable standoff weapons.

 

[sayerulz]

I feel as if I have not done a very good job expressing myself, and thus the criticism that I have gotten is justified. I think that I should try and make myself more clear. What I am talking about has more to do with the primary weapons on ships and turrets and what role that puts them in. For instance, if you make a small fighter with missile/cannon, you can use it reasonably well against capital ships, as it should be, since dumb fire missiles make sense as the weapon of bombers: inaccurate, but easy enough to hit a ship that is much larger than your own. However, if you just equip it with cannon/cannon, it will also be effective on other fighters, as well as as effective, if not more, on capital ships For secondary weapons on a fighter, their is still no reason to use something like dumb missiles, because missile/beam is more versatile and just as damaging.

The same goes for turrets: why go cannon/pulse when cannon/cannon or missile/beam is more versatile and does the same damage?

Which is why I want changes to encourage certain weapon setups being anti-fighter or anti-capital. To do this, I think that we need increases damage on dumb missiles, higher armor values on larger ships, and slower turning rates for higher damage missiles.

Or perhaps someone has a reason why these particular changes won't work well. These are just ideas, but I think we need to eliminate certain weapons just being better than others for everything.

 

[Lecic]

However, if you just equip it with cannon/cannon, it will also be effective on other fighters, as well as as effective, if not more, on capital ships

Except it's not, because cannon/cannon has 10x less alpha than missile/cannon, making it very difficult for a fighter to get through the armor of a capital with a machine gun.

 

[sayerulz]

Except it's not, because cannon/cannon has 10x less alpha than missile/cannon, making it very difficult for a fighter to get through the armor of a capital with a machine gun.

But missiles spread their damage out over an area, meaning they still can't pierce armor as effectively. And besides that, have you ever seen a single effective craft that uses dumb fire missiles as a primary? Cannon/cannon is just better.

 

[Lecic]

And besides that, have you ever seen a single effective craft that uses dumb fire missiles as a primary?

Yes.

 

[MacThule]

have you ever seen a single effective craft that uses dumb fire missiles as a primary? Cannon/cannon is just better.

Dumb fire missiles out-range autocannons by 60%.

 

[sayerulz]

Dumb fire missiles out-range autocannons by 60%.

What use is longer range when your projectiles are too slow to hit anything?

 

[MacThule]

What use is longer range when your projectiles are too slow to hit anything?

Are you implying that dumbfire missiles are too slow to hit anything?

 

[Master_Artificer]

I know on the Ares Mod server the Phobus with its missile gatling gun that fires missiles faster than a Cannon-Cannon was able to keep a bead on me and hit me 8km away when I was in a maneuverable 2k mass ship, they missiles travel quite fast and when you get close they start removing parts of your ship.

 

[Madman198237]

Dumbfire missiles are becoming more and more effective the more developed fleets become. If we get formations better implemented, along with other options for fleets, a faction fielding 3 people could effectively manage a fighter squad, bomber squad, and battle line all at once.