Something that is needed allot

[Lucidess]

Is this a Creative server?

 

[Nauvran]

Is this a Creative server?

yes, yes it is

 

[StormWing0]

Is this a Creative server?

Yes but the fool got banned for Plagiarism and is now whining about there being none. XD

 

[Bonusinches]

I googled this, it's 19.8%, which is close enough to 20%.

Last complete financial year's welfare expenditure was $146bil.
Source: 2014-15 Commonwealth Budget - Welfare - The case for change

GDP was $1454bil. My figures were slightly off as I was going by the previous years GDP which was about 100bil higher, but still, extremely close to 10%
Source: Australia GDP | 1960-2016 | Data | Chart | Calendar | Forecast | News

By "Temporarily", do you mean;

By temporarily I mean for a period not exceeding 3 months.

No, they're not. It's as simple as that. A lot of them don't have a reason to find a job, they get enough from the government

Underemployment/Unemployment in Australia equates to 2.446 million people as of about 10 months ago. Unemployment figures have increased since then.
Source: Australian real unemployment down to 10.4% (1.31 million) but under-employment increases to 9.0% (1.14 million)

As of November last year there were 167,000 job vacancies. That's nearly 20 applicants per available job, many of which hardly qualify as part time and thus are unlikely to even cover rent let alone other living expenses. We are a highly regulated country, you can't even go out and harvest firewood for sale here legally without owning the land and harvesting deadwood from it for example.
Source: 6354.0 - Job Vacancies, Australia, Nov 2015

Why didn't I mention this? Because it isn't socialism, it's the ethical treatment of our citizen. Every single person should have access to healthcare, regardless of financial situation. :p

In your opinion perhaps, but an awful lot of people define it as such.

You seem to think that I think America > Australia, boy are you wrong

I did get that impression, but even if that isn't the case the USA is often held up as the yardstick for comparison's sake and I've just gone with this.

The wars, while partially lied about, are still serious enough to join in. Especially when Aus has one of the best militaries in the world, and THE best intel gatherer thingies.

Again that's a matter of opinion, but to be fair I was just rubbing it in at this point.

You seem to have taken what I said COMPLETELY out of context.

I was talking about how socialism/communism is bad

I never stated Australia is communist, I was merely stuff that teeters on the border of socialism to show how it can be bad

I never even remotely mentioned USA (if I did, please quote it :p), let alone compare it to Australia

My facts may not have been fully accurate, but that isn't needed in the art of persuasion. Having them close to the facts, but manipulated in such a way to make your own side look more appealing is how it's done, so I MAY have bloated some of those numbers. :p

But in all seriousness, you came shitting on my anti-communism parade, going on about Australia and how it's not a communist or socialist state and that it's better than America. I'm thoroughly dissapointed in you, because your intellect could've been used for more productive things, like hating on communism as well. :p

You used Australia as an example of Communism specifically until you referred to "socialist give money from rich to poor shit" towards the end, and most of your statement is more aligned with describing communism than socialism. There is a world of difference between say the USSR and Sweden just for example sake. Your claim that accuracy is not required within the art of persuasion is half of what's wrong with the world today, and as for me shitting on your ill informed anti communist rant, you were shitting on my country. Maybe we could all be doing something more productive with our time, but this is a game forum and I consider correcting bullshit to take precedence. I'll leave it at that, but you can be certain of this, you weren't the only one disappointed.

 

[CyberTao]

yes, yes it is

Is SS a build server?​

 

[Blaza612]

Last complete financial year's welfare expenditure was $146bil.
Source: 2014-15 Commonwealth Budget - Welfare - The case for change

GDP was $1454bil. My figures were slightly off as I was going by the previous years GDP which was about 100bil higher, but still, extremely close to 10%
Source: Australia GDP | 1960-2016 | Data | Chart | Calendar | Forecast | News


By temporarily I mean for a period not exceeding 3 months.


Underemployment/Unemployment in Australia equates to 2.446 million people as of about 10 months ago. Unemployment figures have increased since then.
Source: Australian real unemployment down to 10.4% (1.31 million) but under-employment increases to 9.0% (1.14 million)

As of November last year there were 167,000 job vacancies. That's nearly 20 applicants per available job, many of which hardly qualify as part time and thus are unlikely to even cover rent let alone other living expenses. We are a highly regulated country, you can't even go out and harvest firewood for sale here legally without owning the land and harvesting deadwood from it for example.
Source: 6354.0 - Job Vacancies, Australia, Nov 2015

You are correct on all of these, and I wasn't saying you weren't. I simply stated that most of the stuff I gathered was from vague memory. :p

In your opinion perhaps, but an awful lot of people define it as such.

Then an awful lot of people are awful. :p

I did get that impression, but even if that isn't the case the USA is often held up as the yardstick for comparison's sake and I've just gone with this.

I'm not sure how you got that impression, like, at all. Could it be the fact that USA is commonly referred to as the 'Anti-commie' country or something along those lines? I hate Communism because we studied it in school, and it genuinely as a terrible ideology, not because they told us it is, they never gave any opinions. They only said this is Communism and Socialism, and we formed our own opinions, which is that it's bad.

There is a world of difference between say the USSR and Sweden just for example sake.

I'd also just like to point out that Sweden is NOT a socialist state. A socialist state is when where everything is owned by everyone equally. Ownership of an object does not belong to any one person, it belongs to literally EVERYONE in that state. The government is primarily influenced by the people themselves, with votes going for every policy or thing that is to be implemented into the nation. One big difference between socialism and communism, is that socialism acknowledges the fact that people are different, and that society will automatically organize itself into classes. Hence, people with a higher IQ will have jobs for those and will probably be regarded higher or as more important (in certain situations) than say someone who's a builder.

Your claim that accuracy is not required within the art of persuasion is half of what's wrong with the world today

Are you suggesting that that's on the line of manipulation/corruption? If so, the art of persuasion is almost entirely manipulation. Not only that, but warping statistics a tad bit to make an argument seem stronger, is the lowest of crimes, and is not even slightly bordering on claiming that "Accuracy is not required within the art of persuasion". Accuracy is required, but only to a certain extent. There is a massive difference between a stat being 10% with changing it to 20%, and changing that stat to say 60%. There is a point where it's too far, and starts to detract from an argument. Either way, 100% accuracy is not needed, I'd say like 75-85%. :p

ill informed

By ill-informed, do you mean off vague memory, that wasn't off by that much? (Okay, the tax on maybe :p)

anti communist rant

You seem to imply that it's bad, I'm just gonna assume that it isn't implying that.

you were shitting on my country

It's my country too, and I wasn't shitting on it. I was shitting on the parts that seem shitty (like the Union and Welfare).

you weren't the only one disappointed

You seem to imply that you're disappointed in me. Please, elaborate on how so.

 

[Nauvran]

No

Is SS a build server?​

No Cyba, SS is not a build server

 

[Bonusinches]

Then an awful lot of people are awful. :p

Very true.

I'm not sure how you got that impression, like, at all. Could it be the fact that USA is commonly referred to as the 'Anti-commie' country or something along those lines? I hate Communism because we studied it in school, and it genuinely as a terrible ideology, not because they told us it is, they never gave any opinions. They only said this is Communism and Socialism, and we formed our own opinions, which is that it's bad.

The USA is the country most commonly referenced in comparison to Australia in my experience, so the statement was purely subjective.

I'd also just like to point out that Sweden is NOT a socialist state. A socialist state is when where everything is owned by everyone equally. Ownership of an object does not belong to any one person, it belongs to literally EVERYONE in that state. The government is primarily influenced by the people themselves, with votes going for every policy or thing that is to be implemented into the nation. One big difference between socialism and communism, is that socialism acknowledges the fact that people are different, and that society will automatically organize itself into classes. Hence, people with a higher IQ will have jobs for those and will probably be regarded higher or as more important (in certain situations) than say someone who's a builder.

That was kinda my point, Australia is no closer to being a true socialist state than Sweden, we do both incorporate many aspects of socialism though. My issue was partly because you had literally dozens of communist or ex communist countries to choose from for your example, but I suppose living in Australia at least you're trying to talk about what you're familiar with.

Are you suggesting that that's on the line of manipulation/corruption? If so, the art of persuasion is almost entirely manipulation. Not only that, but warping statistics a tad bit to make an argument seem stronger, is the lowest of crimes, and is not even slightly bordering on claiming that "Accuracy is not required within the art of persuasion". Accuracy is required, but only to a certain extent. There is a massive difference between a stat being 10% with changing it to 20%, and changing that stat to say 60%. There is a point where it's too far, and starts to detract from an argument. Either way, 100% accuracy is not needed, I'd say like 75-85%. :p

I'm not even sure how to respond to this, but I daresay it's not your fault that you've been taught this way, politicians get away with worse after all so we'll just have to agree to disagree (not about communism though, on that subject I do agree.)

I'm going to leave it at that from this point on, people are probably sick of the discussion and I think we're at the point where we'd just be throwing opinions at each other. Thanks for the discussion, apologies for the initial saltiness, and lets get back to Starmade.

 

[Blaza612]

The USA is the country most commonly referenced in comparison to Australia in my experience, so the statement was purely subjective.

The only times I've ever seen Aus compared to USA is when dissing USA. :p

That was kinda my point

Yeah, me living in Aus means that I actually know a decent amount of the political shit here, so yeah, I used it's more socialist parts as an example. :p

it's not your fault that you've been taught this way

Nigga, now you're undermining my intelligence. :p

In all seriousness, I wasn't "taught" anything about persuasion. Everything I know about and how to do such is entirely experienced based and simple logic. So in reality, it is my fault, and you seem to imply that the statement on not needing to be 100% accurate is bad. Actually elaborate on this, rather than just assuming that I've been brainwashed by a system that isn't brainwashing, because we aren't in America.

agree to disagree

How about no. You have unfinished points that I'd like know more about, and this is simply a cop out excuse to attempt to get the "last laugh" as it's known. The discussion isn't over yet, still got a bit more to work through.

I'm going to leave it at that

Don't you just hate it when the opposition simply ends the conversation when it's clearly not done? I can see that you're sub-consciously (Not aware) affected by the knowledge of my age, push it back, and finish this discussion.

 

[Bonusinches]

Nigga, now you're undermining my intelligence. :p

In all seriousness, I wasn't "taught" anything about persuasion. Everything I know about and how to do such is entirely experienced based and simple logic. So in reality, it is my fault, and you seem to imply that the statement on not needing to be 100% accurate is bad. Actually elaborate on this, rather than just assuming that I've been brainwashed by a system that isn't brainwashing, because we aren't in America.

I disagree, it's pretty simple. I'd say doubling a figure is inaccurate, you consider that acceptable. I wouldn't complain if you rounded to the nearest whole figure, which isn't that hard if you're not trying to misrepresent your source. Shit like this only causes mistrust and loss of credibility. Might just be me that thinks this but I doubt it.

How about no. You have unfinished points that I'd like know more about, and this is simply a cop out excuse to attempt to get the "last laugh" as it's known. The discussion isn't over yet, still got a bit more to work through.

Ask away.

 

[Blaza612]

I'd say doubling a figure is inaccurate

Doubling can be very subjective and is too easily manipulable. Using doubling is a very common strategy to make something seem bigger than it is. Sound familiar?

I wouldn't complain if you rounded to the nearest whole figure

Well, I did, but my source was up to date, so we got different results.

 

[Bonusinches]

Doubling can be very subjective and is too easily manipulable. Using doubling is a very common strategy to make something seem bigger than it is. Sound familiar?

Yes. It's called lying. It's what you did with welfare expenditure as a proportion of GDP.

Well, I did, but my source was up to date, so we got different results.

I provided my sources, and any idiot with a calculator can verify what I said. Care to do the same?

 

[Blaza612]

Yes. It's called lying. It's what you did with welfare expenditure as a proportion of GDP.

You did it too that.

I provided my sources, and any idiot with a calculator can verify what I said. Care to do the same?

Fuck, now I need to be serious. :u

Checked my sources again, looks as though I did look at the wrong thing. I appear to had mistaken the overall Social Expenditure for the Welfare Expenditure (Social Expenditure is ~20% of the GDP)

Sauce

However, in an effort to re-evaluate my sauce, I found another thing, directly from the government themselves.

Extra Saucy Sauce

It shows that $136.5 billion was spent on welfare for the years 2012 and 2013. 26.3% ($35.9 billion) was spent on general services, with 5.5% ($7.5 billion) spent on unemployment benefits. Now, in this case, one could say that 5.5% of the expenditure isn't really that much. The thing is, it is. Just 5.5% of the $136.5 billion poured into welfare, is $7.5 billion, which is still an obscene amount of money to be spending on allowing people to not have jobs.

So there ye have it, the proper fact sauce. Even if the original wasn't correct, I still corrected it.

 

[Bonusinches]

You did it too that

I rounded my figure to the nearest whole number. You did that and then doubled it. We're agreeing to disagree on this or you can try to convince a brick wall for all the fucks I give.

It shows that $136.5 billion was spent on welfare for the years 2012 and 2013. 26.3% ($35.9 billion) was spent on general services, with 5.5% ($7.5 billion) spent on unemployment benefits. Now, in this case, one could say that 5.5% of the expenditure isn't really that much. The thing is, it is. Just 5.5% of the $136.5 billion poured into welfare, is $7.5 billion, which is still an obscene amount of money to be spending on allowing people to not have jobs.

So there ye have it, the proper fact sauce. Even if the original wasn't correct, I still corrected it.

I was going by slightly newer figures and if you re-read you'll see I actually attributed about $10billion rather than $7.5billion to unemployment expenditure. The government also gave Cambodia $55million for them to accept 5 asylum seekers that we didn't want here because votes, 3 of whom went back to applying here for asylum anyway, how;s that for obscene? Government expenditure is out of control across the board and I never even argued against this or that unemployment expenditure wasn't obscene in and of itself. Our leadership is shitty, has for a long time been shitty, and will be for a long time in the future, and if you took away unemployment benefits overnight it would lead to crime, not opportunity.
You're just cherry picking your outrage and picking on the weakest target. But you're also ultimately trying to win an argument rather than trying to reach a true conclusion.

 

[Blaza612]

I rounded my figure to the nearest whole number. You did that and then doubled it. We're agreeing to disagree on this or you can try to convince a brick wall for all the fucks I give.

Actually I got the wrong source, then rounded it. :p

But putting that aside, I wasn't trying to say your facts or wrong or anything, and I never even slightly hinted at it. I was just stating that manipulation of statistics is a common part of persuasion that most people use. Exaggeration is something almost everyone does in their everyday lives, particularly when telling friends stories and such. I was simply stating that it isn't bad, but tends to lose it's power when it's pointed out.

how;s that for obscene

Very :p

and if you took away unemployment benefits overnight it would lead to crime, not opportunity.

I didn't talk about taking them away, just said that they're bad. My idea of taking them away, would be to remove say like 50c to $1 off of the benefits. This way (hopefully) those receiving the benefits would be able to sustain themselves, but not forever, so they actually need to find a job. And if they don't find one when it becomes unsustainable, then bad luck, they should've gotten a job (Unless they can prove that they've been attempting to find a job around the clock).

outrage

You seem to think I'm angry. Where did you get this idea? Like, I haven't been pissy at all, in fact, I've been throwing around a couple of snarky remarks for humour. :p

But you're also ultimately trying to win an argument rather than trying to reach a true conclusion.

I'm pretty sure that I haven't really been arguing with you. You've been putting words in my mouth, ideas in my head and emotions up my arse, all of which I've been countering by saying "Nigga, calm down, I never said or implied any of that." You have taken this completely out of proportion, and assume that I'm the instigator here. Seriously, how did we get from me hating communism/socialism, to you trying to portray me as a butthurt kid trying to win an argument that doesn't exist?