Faction/Personal permissions update = Stolen homebases?

[Winterhome]

This hasn't happened to us, personally, on account of Thryn just plain-old not recruiting anyone who isn't more or less guaranteed to be competent, self sufficient, and not-a-saboteur. But anybody who just wants to have fun with the game is at risk, and indeed, I've seen at least a few people come to the forum chat room complaining of this having happened.

Basically, because the faction homebase was set as a public access entity (ie: nobody had time or spent the energy to put faction permission modules on every single relevant object), a recruit got into the faction module and set the homebase to Personal - and, apparently, setting permissions on the parent entity also sets permissions on every single docked entity down the chain as well, thus stealing the entire homebase.

The faction founder was unable to fix this, and admins were unable to do so as well, on account of the Personal tag not being overridden by resetting faction. The only way, as far as I know, to "rescue" a homebase that's been set as personal is to hijack the account of the player who did it, or convince the player in question (which is highly unlikely) to give the homebase back. I am, of course, uncertain as to whether or not un-personaling a parent object actually un-personals the docked objects, though, as I've not seen any reports as to whether it does or not.

It seems to me that the faction permissions update has given factions three choices - either spend many hours refitting every single entity to have proper faction permission module placement (which still isn't surefire protection, from what I've seen), kick every low rank out of the faction and halt recruitment, or just plain-old stop playing Starmade for a year or three.

Now, being the fan of the game I am, I'd rather not see factions die out and the game lose players over something that takes hundreds of combined hours on the part of the entire faction playerbase to resolve. So, let's get some discussion going on how this can be fixed. I'll go first.

Personal permissions should be able to be overwritten by higher ranking faction members.

 

[NeonSturm]

Personal permissions should be able to be overwritten by higher ranking faction members.

Just NO.
How else do you want to make your Warship you yourself bought grief-resistant against an faction-member who wants to try out your stuff and has a rank higher because he is a week in it and you a day?

Make different faction permission levels for doors, gravity, computers, faction-modules ...
Or separate important areas with a Leader-Level structure and docked level-dependent rail-doors or use killers-pulses near the faction module which can be shut down by wireless Leader-Level remote blocks.

Or make a home-base and docked stuff unable to be set to private. Undock ships/entities to set them to private before re-dock.

There are many work-arounds which are far better.

 

[Winterhome]

Just NO.

How else do you want to make your Warship you yourself bought grief-resistant against an faction-member who wants to try out your stuff and has a rank higher because he is a week in it and you a day?

You don't dock it to the homebase. Simple as that. You park it somewhere in the middle of nowhere, because that's safer than the homebase is.

 

[Keptick]

The faction permission module should enable you to set specific ranks to stuff. So for example, setting one up so that the faction module and build blocks are only accessible to high-ranks, while the station's faction module is set to low ranks and disables editing (building) for ranks less than X.

Would make a lot more sense to set higher permissions on a couple of things (like the faction block) and low on the station instead of setting high permissions on the station and having to set permission modules on every. single. freaking. thing. on the station.

 

[Keptick]

You don't dock it to the homebase. Simple as that. You park it somewhere in the middle of nowhere, because that's safer than the homebase is.

I agree with NeonSturm here, your solution is pretty bad @Azeriah . There would be practically no point in having the "personal" setting if higher ranked faction members can have access to it anyways...

Basically: I don't want people to touch my stuff.

 

[Winterhome]

I agree with NeonSturm here, your solution is pretty bad @Azeriah . There would be practically no point in having the "personal" setting if higher ranked faction members can have access to it anyways...

Basically: I don't want people to touch my stuff.

Hm, perhaps. Problem is, the other solutions require that either schema gets over his fear of complex GUIs, or the players themselves collectively focus hundreds of hours into solving a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place.

 

[Keptick]

Hm, perhaps. Problem is, the other solutions require that either schema gets over his fear of complex GUIs, or the players themselves collectively focus hundreds of hours into solving a problem that shouldn't exist in the first place.

I'm pretty sure that we wouldn't need a complex GUI for a system of individual perms. You'd just need a simple UI for the permission blocks that would enable you to select a rank. Things connected to that perm block would be locked to that rank, and the perm block couldn't be modified without having the selected rank (or higher). Idk how complex the implementation would be, but from a player's perspective it'd be really simple...

With my proposed system:

• Set the station to lvl 1 access, restrict modification access (so adding/removing blocks from the station). That option is already there, not sure if it's still bugged though.
• Set permission blocks with the "founder" rank and have them linked to the station's build blocks and faction module.

With the current system:

• Set the station to founder rank.
• Add faction permission modules to every single thing that can be interacted with on the station. Aka: A massive pain in the ass.

 

[Master_Artificer]

I agree with NeonSturm here, your solution is pretty bad @Azeriah . There would be practically no point in having the "personal" setting if higher ranked faction members can have access to it anyways...

Basically: I don't want people to touch my stuff.

I also see it the other way around. You set your stuff to personal, dock it to the homebase, then someone sets the homebase to personal, and the ship is overridden and locks you out.
Its part of a larger issue, and while I see people being like "don't touch my stuff", losing everything because someone got up on the wrong side of the bed that day or infiltrated your faction has never been easier.


Maybe you can't set things to personal if they are already of a faction rank higher than yours, AND homebases straight up don't have a personal setting?

 

[Keptick]

I also see it the other way around. You set your stuff to personal, dock it to the homebase, then someone sets the homebase to personal, and the ship is overridden and locks you out.
Its part of a larger issue, and while I see people being like "don't touch my stuff", losing everything because someone got up on the wrong side of the bed that day or infiltrated your faction has never been easier.


Maybe you can't set things to personal if they are already of a faction rank higher than yours, AND homebases straight up don't have a personal setting?

I'm not saying that the current system is good, read the post right above yours :P

 

[StormWing0]

hmm maybe homebases can't be set to personal? Also for the personal setting I was hoping to have a list of names under it, if someone adds their name only they can remove it but there'd also be a way to add multiple names to the entity in question. That said we need a way for the founder(s) of a faction to override personal protection within a faction since there are a ton of griefing issues otherwise.

 

[NeonSturm]

hmm maybe homebases can't be set to personal?

Or make a home-base and docked stuff unable to be set to private. Undock ships/entities to set them to private before re-dock.

But if you enable a build block for public use, wouldn't it's users also be able to remove the faction-block itself and add a new one?
And can you not use warheads which ignore shields to remove the faction block too?

It's part of a bigger problem and I don't really see a solution as long as build blocks are public-use and shield-ignoring things exist.
There is only the option to put explosives around the public build block and trigger them with redundant circuitry when anything important gets removed (area triggers trigger when a nearby block gets removed).

 

[Master_Artificer]

But if you enable a build block for public use, wouldn't it's users also be able to remove the faction-block itself and add a new one?
And can you not use warheads which ignore shields to remove the faction block too?

It's part of a bigger problem and I don't really see a solution as long as build blocks are public-use and shield-ignoring things exist.
There is only the option to put explosives around the public build block and trigger them with redundant circuitry when anything important gets removed (area triggers trigger when a nearby block gets removed).

Never enable build block to public use ever why would you even do that to yourself

 

[NeonSturm]

Never enable build block to public use ever why would you even do that to yourself

How else do you want new rank 4-5 members to be able to use this block while the entity as a whole is for (co)leaders only?

And giving permission to rank 4-5 is the same as giving it to public.

 

[StormWing0]

Never enable build block to public use ever why would you even do that to yourself

lol I do that on certain pirate stations for grins after laying down a ton of traps. :P

 

[Master_Artificer]

How else do you want new rank 4-5 members to be able to use this block while the entity as a whole is for (co)leaders only?

And giving permission to rank 4-5 is the same as giving it to public.

Why would you want new players in your faction to have access to your stations build blocks
Like you said, might as well make it public.


Unless... does your faction have open permission modules next to the build blocks?
If so, can I join your faction?

 

[NeonSturm]

Why would you want new players in your faction to have access to your stations build blocks

Not to the whole station, but maybe a creative area.

But if somebody builds something that looks like a dock, the issue could remain.

 

[nightrune]

It should only propagate to docked objects without faction modules

 

[Gasboy]

This hasn't happened to us, personally, on account of Thryn just plain-old not recruiting anyone who isn't more or less guaranteed to be competent, self sufficient, and not-a-saboteur. But anybody who just wants to have fun with the game is at risk, and indeed, I've seen at least a few people come to the forum chat room complaining of this having happened.

Basically, because the faction homebase was set as a public access entity (ie: nobody had time or spent the energy to put faction permission modules on every single relevant object), a recruit got into the faction module and set the homebase to Personal - and, apparently, setting permissions on the parent entity also sets permissions on every single docked entity down the chain as well, thus stealing the entire homebase.

The faction founder was unable to fix this, and admins were unable to do so as well, on account of the Personal tag not being overridden by resetting faction. The only way, as far as I know, to "rescue" a homebase that's been set as personal is to hijack the account of the player who did it, or convince the player in question (which is highly unlikely) to give the homebase back. I am, of course, uncertain as to whether or not un-personaling a parent object actually un-personals the docked objects, though, as I've not seen any reports as to whether it does or not.

It seems to me that the faction permissions update has given factions three choices - either spend many hours refitting every single entity to have proper faction permission module placement (which still isn't surefire protection, from what I've seen), kick every low rank out of the faction and halt recruitment, or just plain-old stop playing Starmade for a year or three.

Now, being the fan of the game I am, I'd rather not see factions die out and the game lose players over something that takes hundreds of combined hours on the part of the entire faction playerbase to resolve. So, let's get some discussion going on how this can be fixed. I'll go first.

Personal permissions should be able to be overwritten by higher ranking faction members.

See, the thing I don't understand here is how the 'recruit' was able to change the faction settings in the first place.

From what I have read, the old faction module became the 'public' version, and the new block became the 'faction' version, correct? If so, that's just kind of unfortunate that the recruit got there first to make that change before the faction owner(s) could. And there should be a way for admins to rescue the faction after the fact. That's the only change I would suggest being made.

And the fact that the old faction modules were to become the 'public' versions should have been made more prominent. Yes, there are patch notes, but really, you had, what, moments to minutes to act? That makes things difficult, especially if you have people who are willing to cause shenanigans.

So I can understand why people would be upset.

However, no, I don't believe that personal permissions should be able to be overwritten by higher ranking faction members. The change to faction blocks is simply a large bump, and that once you are past that bump, it's on you (the faction owner) to ensure that new things (stations, ships, etc.) are adequately protected. Just as the faction member should ensure adequate protection on their personal things (ships, etc).

That is to say, barring any game breaking bugs, or patches that change how things work entirely, faction owners are responsible for making sure people don't steal their stuff.

 

[Lecic]

See, the thing I don't understand here is how the 'recruit' was able to change the faction settings in the first place.

From what I have read, the old faction module became the 'public' version, and the new block became the 'faction' version, correct? If so, that's just kind of unfortunate that the recruit got there first to make that change before the faction owner(s) could. And there should be a way for admins to rescue the faction after the fact. That's the only change I would suggest being made.

And the fact that the old faction modules were to become the 'public' versions should have been made more prominent. Yes, there are patch notes, but really, you had, what, moments to minutes to act? That makes things difficult, especially if you have people who are willing to cause shenanigans.

So I can understand why people would be upset.

However, no, I don't believe that personal permissions should be able to be overwritten by higher ranking faction members. The change to faction blocks is simply a large bump, and that once you are past that bump, it's on you (the faction owner) to ensure that new things (stations, ships, etc.) are adequately protected. Just as the faction member should ensure adequate protection on their personal things (ships, etc).

That is to say, barring any game breaking bugs, or patches that change how things work entirely, faction owners are responsible for making sure people don't steal their stuff.

I think you've completely misunderstood this post.

Faction Modules (NOT faction PERMISSION modules) have a setting that allows you to lock a ship to a specific rank, or to personal, which means only the person who set it can use it. If a faction wants people to be able to use all the doors and such on a HB, they can't rank lock the HB, or spend ages hooking all the doors up with permissions. By not rank locking the HB, someone can set the HB to personal and lock up the HB.

Even if the HB is locked up, a new recruit could still potentially lock all of the ships available to them, which is an obnoxious hassle for the faction. Before, someone could steal everything at their rank, yes, but you could halt a theft by booting them from the faction. With personal locks, their stuff is still their stuff after they're booted, which means you either need to board and remove the faction module or overheat the ship.

Things are rarely stolen by higher ranking officers. Things are usually stolen by low-ranks who have been planted into the faction, either by a solo player or an opposing faction. When things get stolen by a high-rank, it's usually an intrafaction issue that can be resolved internally. If the issue can't be resolved with a return of the stolen items and a booting/demoting of the officer, the victim can always leave the faction. When things get stolen by a low-rank, it's usually an interfaction issue that cannot be resolved internally. There's no way to resolve it, because there aren't any threats you can point at the person who just stole a huge chunk of your fleet. You can't leave the faction to get away from the issue. And THAT is why there should be a way for higher ranks to override a lower rank's personal lock.

 

[NeonSturm]

When things get stolen by a low-rank, it's usually an interfaction issue that cannot be resolved internally. There's no way to resolve it, because there aren't any threats you can point at the person who just stole a huge chunk of your fleet. You can't leave the faction to get away from the issue. And THAT is why there should be a way for higher ranks to override a lower rank's personal lock.

Just no. If you wanna personalize something you should need to undock from HB.

Or you should be able to set different permissions for doors than for using the faction module itself or a build block.

Build Block, Door => High rank officers
Faction Module, Place Build Blocks => Only the leader

Abuse build blocks near faction module => triggers an area trigger, which if removed triggers another area trigger, which triggers an explosive at both sides of a build block. And the BB can only be placed by the owner.