Turret AI

[Valiant70]

A lot of people are having issues with turrets not not doing any good since the AI nerf. They cannot take out fighters or other small targets unless equipped with homing missiles or manned by a human player. They just shoot out a nice donut shape in whatever is behind the small target.

It doesn't even make any sense for them to fire in this manner. They are not firing randomly within the circle as if they were somewhat inaccurate, but are purposefully avoiding the bullseye. This is not realistic or balanced inaccuracy, but an unrealistic and rather irritating "Stormtrooper effect."

Another problem is that anything other than a faction home base is literally defenseless against small strike craft unless players are online to man the turrets and core the ships. A group of small fighters can fly in, hold still to avoid fire (which should never, ever, ever happen) and leisurely plink the turrets one at a time, allowing large ships to move in and obliterate the base or starship.

/joke
If AI is left as it is, I'd at least like to have NPC stormtroopers added to the game as gunners that can be hired to make turrets occasionally hit something.
/end joke

 

[Lecic]

You either use rapid turrets (lots of bullets makes them less likely to miss) or some sort of locking missile. The game has changed. You can't just use your anti-cap turrets to also attack fighters anymore.

I'd like to see the Minelayer implemented, as in the original diagram made by Calbiri the AMC + Minelayer combo made Flak Cannons, which are perfect for anti-fighter use.

 

[Valiant70]

You either use rapid turrets (lots of bullets makes them less likely to miss)

I don't think that's true, as they just shoot at the outside of the circle, which is either a nonsensical, imbalanced, and annoying game mechanic or a bug.

or some sort of locking missile.

These are very weak, easy to dodge or outrun, and have almost no DPS compared to other weapon systems of similar bulk. If this is the solution, missiles will need to be buffed so that they would be some kind of threat to a shielded fighter, not something akin to a bee sting.

The game has changed. You can't just use your anti-cap turrets to also attack fighters anymore.

This is a change that many players are unhappy with. I think it's the result of a few people screaming "plz nerf."

I'd like to see the Minelayer implemented, as in the original diagram made by Calbiri the AMC + Minelayer combo made Flak Cannons, which are perfect for anti-fighter use.

That would be the bare minimum. Right now there are balancing issues because fighters cannot be damaged by perimeter defense turrets, and neither can small turrets mounted on other ships.

 

[Izikiel]

I had a fight with some fighters, and I can see what you are talking about. But, I think that although there should be a couple of tweaks, it's at least going in the right direction. The fight looked a lot better because there were shots flying really close to the bridge, or peppering random spots along the ship instead of always hitting one spot, all the time. However, my turrets could not take out any fighters because it couldn't hit the targets often enough.

So, maybe just tighten up their aim just a little bit, either by reducing the spread range slightly, or by making it a slightly better chance for the A.I. to hit their target in the spread range. Are there any other ways, besides adding more blocks or types of A.I.?

 

[Valiant70]

The right direction perhaps, but it's not quite right yet. Medium sized ships will get torn up by larger ships' turrets, but no turret can really damage a fighter as it is. This makes medium-sized ships underpowered if they're too big to turn quickly and hit fighters with forward batteries. There should at least be an accuracy buff for smallish turrets, so they can hit targets their own size with reasonable accuracy. Also, I really don't like the donut shaped firing pattern. They at least need to randomly hit the center, not avoid it.

 

[PizzaPress]

Perhaps their base accuracy should be better and with less randomness, but having to lead the target at high speeds will incur some difficulty, as well as speed/direction changes of the target(from the turrets' view, so that back/forwards will do nothing if aimed at the turret). IDK if that's easy or difficult to implement. Basically, simulating based on how hard it would actually be to aim.
EDIT:

There should at least be an accuracy buff for smallish turrets, so they can hit targets their own size with reasonable accuracy.

This could work nicely in conjunction with turret turn speed, and a small(partially adjustable at loss of other stats)cone of fire.

 

[Unnamed25]

These are very weak, easy to dodge or outrun, and have almost no DPS compared to other weapon systems of similar bulk. If this is the solution, missiles will need to be buffed so that they would be some kind of threat to a shielded fighter, not something akin to a bee sting.

All weapons have the same DPS per block, missiles are the slowest reloading, but they are the strongest per shot.
And now missiles travel 2x the server speed limit, and they aren't that weak anymore

Even some small missile turrets from NuclearFuns Phalanx can destroy an isanth's shields in one shot, and probably could do way more. (Yes, i know isanths aren't that good.)

 

[whiterhino16]

Anyone who says to just adapt to the change probably has never built anything bigger than a fighter, I'm making a ship about half the length of a shop (which is small by large ship standards) and I haven't even finished half of it yet. These are related because large ships turn slowly, thus need turrets to defend themselves. Without turrets, the are vulnerable to... everything with a damaging object on it. I DON'T want to use my large ship because now I know it'll easily get eaten by fighters. I'll probably use it to destroy stations, but not anything worthwhile

 

[TwoNiner]

These are very weak, easy to dodge or outrun, and have almost no DPS compared to other weapon systems of similar bulk. If this is the solution, missiles will need to be buffed so that they would be some kind of threat to a shielded fighter, not something akin to a bee sting.

Haha, be happy missile even do damage brah, as some of us old hands are aware of, missiles used to do 1 damage to anything that has a shield block on it.

Besides, missiles in this new patch are pretty good, I've seen people use different kinds of missiles to great effect, killing small and big ships alike.

 

[MossyStone48]

I think people forget just how Alpha the game is still. We're looking at a while yet before we move into beta. Don't confuse the balancing being done in the configs as being some last push out of alpha. It's simply to make sure the game is still playable so folks will actually test it. Changing gears: AMC and Beam weapons are suited for capships. Try this.. Take the new Isanths out for a spin. You'll see that some are just better as anti-fighter while others are much more suited to capship harassment. Your best bet is to grab a BP with a good 1:1 weapons setup and see how it fares in combat. Figure out which weapons work best on turrets for which role. Need anti-fighter turrets? 1 to 1 Missile/Beam firing 4 missiles in one salvo will clean the clock of any pirate. Want something closer to how the old AMC turrets worked? 1 to .80 AMC/AMC provide the refire and punch that makes AMC good against smaller targets. Just make sure your turrets are shielded well enough to take some hits from the pirates. If they concentrate their fire on one turret it needs to live long enough to give at least one of the pirates something to write home about.

TL : DR > You don't need better targeting on the AI; You need to build better thought-out turrets.

Protip: A shotgun spread Beam weapon can take a fighter's shielding down very quickly. Leaving them vulnerable to missiles and AMC fire.

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

We do need a better default setting. As it stands AI is only accurate out to 10 meters and that is far too short. Play with the setting, see what works well.

 

[BeefBacon]

Really? Missiles are incredibly effective against fighters, even if they have shields. Good luck outrunning them too.

Big ships, unless equipped with missiles or with turrets specifically designed to take out fighters, are no longer effective against small ships. As far as I'm concerned, this is the way it's supposed to be. Big ships should be engaging big ships. It should be the job of dedicated anti-fighter ships and other strike craft to engage fighters and bombers. I don't much like the idea of a single massive ship that is effective against both capital ships and titans as it defeats the purpose of having a diverse fleet.

 

[madmann135]

I agree that cannon and beam turret AI needs work. Couple the terrible AI accuracy with most weapon combinations now being single shot and you have a recipe for disaster.
In my opinion AI accuracy is suppose to exceed human accuracy. Case in point, the phalanx C.I.W.S. fires bullets to shoot down missiles (missiles travel as fast as some bullets but are bigger), the Phalanx does not use airburst rounds, it uses kinetic kill, meaning it literally shoots the missiles out of the air. The Phalanx fire control system is for the most part automated, a human turns it on and sometimes designates a target but that's it. It is not perfect but it has impressive accuracy.

The current system in Starmade promotes having multiple computer systems and multiple weapon arrays there can be a total of 9 arrays using 27 computers and connected arrays. With a uniform 100 blocks in an array using the 9 available slots would make the weapons 2700 blocks. 9 groups of 3 computer blocks and arrays just to combat cooldown, and long range weapons that can not hit a stationary titan class ship when in AI control.

Don't get me started on missiles, missile turrets are a hazard, especially with beam and pulse slaves.
I have a test ship that self destructed because of a turret consisting of D1000 Master, damage Pulse slave and Ion effect. During testing everything was going fine until I suddenly died. The ships I was fighting are aptly named "fodder" because their weapons suck but they are quick. When I investigated the destroyed ship I saw that the turrets were using pulse weapons and the pulse weapons destroyed the ship.

Same test ship but the turrets were loaded with D1000 Master, damage beam slave and Ion effect. The hull and nearby turrets were damaged from beam weapons. Same enemies.

In addition the missiles have very long cooldowns. Heat seeking swarm missiles hit everything with a core and prioritize everything that is overheating, therefore limiting their effectiveness.

 

[Zylithi]

I propose keeping it the way it is (for now), but leave it open to further implementation.

I'd like to eventually see some API that people can use to load custom turret AI. Your friend on the server, for example, creates some really good AI and can then sell it for credits.

 

[MossyStone48]

madmann135 was cited for necro posting or reviving a thread that was over a month old. i should have locked it then and i have now. please feel free to make a new related thread or post in a related thread and then link to this one.