Fix or Remove Docked Thrust

[Lecic]

For anyone who isn't aware, docked thrust is overpowered. Very, very overpowered. By splitting your thrusters among many small docked thrusters, you can get much higher thrust with many less blocks. This is because docked thrust is not subject to the same rules as if all the thrust was built directly on your main ship.

Docked thrust needs to either be fixed (preferable) or removed, if fixing it is not possible. It would be fixed by making docked thrust subject to the same formula as thrust built directly on the main ship.

 

[Dellexe]

Also, making it so that docked entities can effect the entire ship if they get struck by Push/pull/stop effect systems, because right now I believe they cannot, and they can now also give extra thrust to the main ship.

 

[Jaaskinal]

The change should probably be that instead of giving the main ship the total thrust of the docked entity, it should probably apply its total thruster count. That way, docked thrust would still increase your overall thrust, but it would have the exact same effectiveness as adding thrusters to the main ship.

 

[alterintel]

If this is changed as the OP suggests, then the engines should be returned to the un-nerfed state. My thrust on one of my old ships went down from 7K to 6K with the new thrust update.

 

[Lecic]

If this is changed as the OP suggests, then the engines should be returned to the un-nerfed state. My thrust on one of my old ships went down from 7K to 6K with the new thrust update.

You don't need as much thrust now that there isn't space drag.

 

[alterintel]

You don't need as much thrust now that there isn't space drag.

true, but now thrust to mass ratio affects top speed.

 

[Zackey_TNT]

Why don't you just make it so that we can more easily shoot docked thrusters off, It would counter the op thrust with a threat and would lead to some interesting gameplay. Sub Targets anyone? (Elite Dangerous)

 

[Tunk]

Docked thrusters allow pretty big gains in tmr on both small and large ships.
They are especially effective on small ships.

On one 300k mass ship we did the math on various configurations and managed to bump it from 85k thrust to over 125k with minor effort.
That difference in thrust alone is almost 7k mass and over 2 million power saved.

Depending on how silly you want to go it could get it up to 170k, with the same amount of thrusters total.
A saving of ~15k mass and 5m power, at the price of some sanity.

Theres further analysis on docked thrusters, but basically docked thrusters providing full thrust = easy way to save mass, power or improve performance significantly and it is far more than 1 or 2 percentage points thrown around.
And unlike docked reactors or shield generators they aren't subject to lag or minor damage completely screwing them (unless they pop the docker/rail).

 

[SmilingDemon]

what is the point about everyone telling about an bugged exploit that is going to be fixed at somepoint .. i do ask myself

i already hear everyone whining about having to refit everything after it got fixed ... tztztz

 

[NeonSturm]

what is the point about everyone telling about an bugged exploit that is going to be fixed at somepoint .. i do ask myself

i already hear everyone whining about having to refit everything after it got fixed ... tztztz

Don't listen to the cries of bug-abusers then.

I also think it should be consistent. Consistency over preference. Preference being an option.

 

[Winterhome]

what is the point about everyone telling about an bugged exploit that is going to be fixed at somepoint .. i do ask myself

i already hear everyone whining about having to refit everything after it got fixed ... tztztz

It's not a "bugged exploit" considering that it was added to the game intentionally, without much thought given to the possibility that people would abuse it to make capital ships as fast as fighters.

 

[alterintel]

It's not a "bugged exploit" considering that it was added to the game intentionally, without much thought given to the possibility that people would abuse it to make capital ships as fast as fighters.

I'm not sure that's as easy as it sounds. To move a capital ship your still going to need allot of thrust, whether it's docked or not. You'll still need allot of power to get the ship moving.

 

[Winterhome]

I'm not sure that's as easy as it sounds. To move a capital ship your still going to need allot of thrust, whether it's docked or not. You'll still need allot of power to get the ship moving.

Not nearly as much as you'd think. You dump a large number of docked 5^3 or 7^3 thrust cubes onto something, it'll move more efficiently than most corvettes. Thruster scaling means that large numbers of thrusters on large ships take more power to do less, but you get to use less power to do more when you convert it all to docked thrust. Remember how little power thrusters on smaller ships take.

At the moment, the only reason to use thrusters built into the main hull is merely a matter of safety and server stability, considering that they have the tendency to get shot off regardless of how deeply embedded they are in the parent ship when missiles lag through the parent ship's hull.

 

[alterintel]

Not nearly as much as you'd think. You dump a large number of docked 5^3 or 7^3 thrust cubes onto something, it'll move more efficiently than most corvettes. Thruster scaling means that large numbers of thrusters on large ships take more power to do less, but you get to use less power to do more when you convert it all to docked thrust. Remember how little power thrusters on smaller ships take.

I did exactly that. I dumped over 300 docked thrusters into my battle cruiser in an attempt to get my thrust up to 2.5:1
Though it didn't "lag", some stuff just didn't load, like half of my ship and the whole center part of the pirate station I was attacking. When I tried to press Tab+F6, my game crashed. So it sounds easy in theory, but in practice, well, it's not practical.

 

[Tunk]

Well luckily even with docked thrusters there are limits, for example 300 is only ~10.7% better than 200.
Here's a nice chart in case anyone wants to use it as reference.

 

[nightrune]

For anyone who isn't aware, docked thrust is overpowered. Very, very overpowered. By splitting your thrusters among many small docked thrusters, you can get much higher thrust with many less blocks. This is because docked thrust is not subject to the same rules as if all the thrust was built directly on your main ship.

Docked thrust needs to either be fixed (preferable) or removed, if fixing it is not possible. It would be fixed by making docked thrust subject to the same formula as thrust built directly on the main ship.

This seems completely counter to what they said in the release. It should be going all to the same pool on the master entity. With the same rules applied to it. Is it only counting thrust to mass ration on each one then?

 

[alterintel]

So it looks like the Root Mean Square is at about 20?

 

[godmars]

true, but now thrust to mass ratio affects top speed.

I think that was done with the full intent of making it harder to make larger ships fast, as they should IMO

 

[GRHayes]

Technically if we looked at this from the perspective of reality this is something this game actually got right.
Larger ships would employ larger engines generators and as such if made correctly they would be more efficient than a scaled down version you would find in a fighter. Larger ships in real life also have a lower mass to space ratio. Where a fighter has to be more compact.
Given we aren't pushing against and atmosphere or body of water for movement those negative effects don't hold in space. Which is why star wars and star trek both have it right when they show larger ships having greater speed capability than smaller ships.

Technically in a real space battle fighters would be next to pointless. They only make sense when dealing with other ships on or near their size. however everyone wants this fanciful idea that they can be a hero flying down the canyon on death star and their little ship makes a difference. Where in reality they wouldn't ever get close enough to make a scratch let along fly down the pass because they would have been blown to bit 20,000Km out or further.

However back to focusing on this is a game.

The fact is they need to make the trust changes. Cargo changes one dictated it. You have to laugh when the players want something nurfed.
The fact is they aren't done making changes and I have no idea what they may have in store for light craft. But I can think of several hundred ways this could be put to use and then it wouldn't be over powered in the least.

You are like a bunch of kids that tear the wrapping paper off a present see a plain card board box and start whining before ever opening it up to see what is in side. I do my fair share of bitching also. Seeing do this tends to show me how unfair I been to the dev team as well.

Yes, I know how powerful this can be I came up with the stick ship / carrier.

 

[Lecic]

if we looked at this from the perspective of reality

No.

Larger ships would employ larger engines generators and as such if made correctly they would be more efficient than a scaled down version you would find in a fighter.

Now, I'm not exactly a scientist, but aren't larger machines are typically LESS efficient?

Which is why star wars and star trek both have it right when they show larger ships having greater speed capability than smaller ships.

Greater max speed, yes, but usually slower acceleration.

But I can think of several hundred ways this could be put to use and then it wouldn't be over powered in the least.

Please explain how completely bypassing a downward curve (something not even docked reactors fully do) is not overpowered.

Yes, I know how powerful this can be I came up with the stick ship / carrier.

Yeah, look. No offense, but your "stick carrier" isn't overpowered and isn't new by any stretch of the imagination. A big stick with a fleet of ships or drones docked to it has been around for literal years. Docked thrust didn't do much besides making it not need thrusters directly on it.