Warheads are just fine as they are???

[StormWing0]

lol I'm waiting until people start saying they're OP before I build a scraper ship with them to scrape turrets off of ships. :P

 

[Spartan4845]

If I may put in my two cents. I don't think the issue is with their damage, I think that the issue with warheads is how they damage. My thoughts on the subject are that perhaps we allow them to link together for a spreading buff, not a damage buff but one that allows them to effect a slightly larger/deeper area. Maybe even allow the shape of a warhead cluster to effect what it does.

Example A - Flat mass of Warheads removes the outer layers, allows for boarding.

Example B - A spear of Warheads allows for a puncture effect.

Maybe even allow for slaving of other systems to add to the effects?

Pull Effect to Allow for "magnetic mines"?
Ion for "emp weapons"?
Overcharge + Pulse for a nuke? jjk

 

[StormWing0]

Could just make it easier on the devs and make the shape of the warhead group determine the shape of the blast, no output for group specified = center of mass blast for a grouping.

 

[kiraen]

in comparison to similarly sized weapon groups.

One thing that seems to have been over looked is power consumption. The single power block on the torpedo is for the 'engine' and does not effect the warhead damage at all. In fact, the entire 'engine' assembly could be left off and the warhead's damage would not be affected. You can just as easily have the push pulse on the ship itself. Range might suffer, but that's about it.

 

[AtraUnam]

One thing that seems to have been over looked is power consumption. The single power block on the torpedo is for the 'engine' and does not effect the warhead damage at all. In fact, the entire 'engine' assembly could be left off and the warhead's damage would not be affected. You can just as easily have the push pulse on the ship itself. Range might suffer, but that's about it.

But once you use a ship based weapon to push the torpedo you suddenly have something that is not only single use and weak, but also requires power and has a max range determined by server top speed.

 

[Keptick]

Honestly, I don't mind them ignoring shields. We have shipyards with a repair mode now, so it's not like any "griefing attempt" causes much grief...

 

[Lecic]

I'd like to add something I forgot to add to my earlier post about cost- as it turns out, a guided torpedo needs an additional 550 capsules and 1100 composite for a weapon comp and module, and another 100 capsules and 100 mesh for the faction module. An AI ship without any weapons doesn't appear to do anything. Perhaps it needs thrusters? But then it'd be useless, since it would just try and strafe around ships instead of ram into them like push clock torpedoes.

I think a step in the right direction would be adding a "torpedo" setting for AI that makes it want to ram enemy ships as long as it has disintegrators on board. That would cut down on the overly high cost and block count in using guided torps.

 

[Spartan4845]

Maybe we need some kind of magnetic attachment block, not rails in this case, that is multi purpose but when linked to a warhead it turns it into a homing weapon.

Other uses would be short term tugboats or thruster for recovering turrets that have been knocked off and such by way of AI recovery.

 

[Lecic]

Oh, and one last thing about guided torpedoes- they literally do not work right now. The AI thinks it's a great idea to turn to face ANY entity that's within a dozen or so meters. Aka, a great way to have your torpedo turn and smack into the ship that's firing it.

 

[StormWing0]

Hmm I don't have that issue if I have a fast enough clock pushing them away. I'll just hook up a super fast logic clock on the main ship and wifi block the signal to the bomb ship. But yes the AI likes facing anything that is close enough to it.

 

[Dr. Whammy]

Yes however we can set them to be devastating with shields already up. The point is that they need to and should be more powerful than the 6 block setup for another weapon.

In the end that is their purpose, so it needs to be just as justified as any other weapon. Think not "why bother" when you should be asking "how do I want to approach combat".

We have a very good discussion on warheads in these threads.
- http://starmadedock.net/threads/questions-about-warheads.21016/ .
- http://starmadedock.net/threads/build-challenge-torpedoes-launchers-magazines.21140/

A lot of the posts in the above threads focus on launching methods and intended use but I've also listed a few examples of warhead damage when tweaked to 500,000 damage and a 25m blast radius.

Spoiler

Any damage value you give it will be cut roughly in half due to the newer explosion mechanic but it's no more powerful that a medium/large missile. The ironic part of this: everyone is so cautious when talking about a damage buff for warheads that they've completely forgotten how hard it is to actually get a working torpedo/launcher system to work properly; much less hit a moving/fighting target with one of these things.

Edit: also, each use of the weapon consumes the warhead and possibly all connected blocks making these expensive to use as opposed to missiles.

I am in favor of a damage increase for warheads but I understand why everyone is so hesitant since suicide griefers pose a major threat with regard to warhead use. Currently, they are the only ones capable of reliably guiding a warhead directly to a target (via ramming it). If I were to suggest a counter to this, it would be as follows.
- Make any undocked entities that have warheads as part of their structure register as missiles to Bobby AI units so that point defense turrets can fire on them. Allow warheads fitted to ships to be detonated when shot even with the shields up.

 

[Valck]

We have a very good discussion on warheads in these threads.
- http://starmadedock.net/threads/questions-about-warheads.21016/ .

Thank you for directing me here, however I think the issue I mentioned in "Questions about Warheads" doesn't quite fit in here, namely how warheads don't reliably trigger in the first place, even if it currently happens because of their low damage output.

Make any undocked entities that have warheads as part of their structure register as missiles to Bobby AI units so that point defense turrets can fire on them. Allow warheads fitted to ships to be detonated when shot even with the shields up.

I understand your concerns, but just as food for thought - I like to implant warheads into vital systems of my ships like power generators and engines which I feel *should* go catastrophic when hit; yes, I'm that weird of a roleplaying person ;)
However, that shouldn't put Schine off from giving warheads quite a bit more oomph; and maybe, hopefully, some day we'll also see a mechanic that makes such shenanigans unnecessary...

 

[Deserea]

So i had a thought the other day, while staring at everything these various threads dealing with warheads.

Why not change warheads to function like all the other weapons? Computer, module, and has its own unique function and mechanics.

Change the warhead into a warhead module, and a warhead computer gets added to use them.
The Warhead itself moves slower than a missile/pulse, to start with, it will pick up speed for a time, until its max is reached. Its range is shorter than a missile as well, for balance purposes, and its reload time is double that of a Missile/pulse setup. It can and actually requires the target to be locked onto to fire, and it can turn mid flight, but it turns much slower, like a torpedo would.

It can take multiple hits from a cannon/cannon AMS system, say 5 or 6, maybe 10 max, before it explodes.

For its damage: It does more damage than a missile/pulse setup by default per block, no idea on numbers it does gain damage from its module length much like other weapons.. If a cannon is slaved, it lowers the damage and increases the reload slightly(no machine gun torpedoes, topping it out at 100% only cuts reload by 50%). if a pulse is slaved, it increases the damage further, but lowers its range. If a beam is slaved, it increases its range, and lowers the spread of the effects, and finally if slaved to a missile, it fires a multiple of little torpedoes non heatseeking(Still needs lock on to fire) that do much lower damage per impact, and have the same range as a standard torpedo, but pass through shields.

Now heres where it differs from a Missile/Pulse set up, it gains bonus damage against armor HP, and a far bigger AOE in a circle around it, while loosing some of its damage against Structure HP, and spaced armor stops the explosion and damage entirely.

Yes i know this is radically different from whats in game now, but it would save quite a bit of space and maybe allow for some interesting ships to be made focused around them entirely. Kinda like the Torpedo frigates in HW work. Terrible against faster ships, and dangerous against larger ones.

*if* yall think this isnt the thread for it, ill create a suggestion thread for it!

 

[Dr. Whammy]

So i had a thought the other day, while staring at everything these various threads dealing with warheads.

Why not change warheads to function like all the other weapons? Computer, module, and has its own unique function and mechanics.

Change the warhead into a warhead module, and a warhead computer gets added to use them.
The Warhead itself moves slower than a missile/pulse, to start with, it will pick up speed for a time, until its max is reached. Its range is shorter than a missile as well, for balance purposes, and its reload time is double that of a Missile/pulse setup. It can and actually requires the target to be locked onto to fire, and it can turn mid flight, but it turns much slower, like a torpedo would.

It can take multiple hits from a cannon/cannon AMS system, say 5 or 6, maybe 10 max, before it explodes.

For its damage: It does more damage than a missile/pulse setup by default per block, no idea on numbers it does gain damage from its module length much like other weapons.. If a cannon is slaved, it lowers the damage and increases the reload slightly(no machine gun torpedoes, topping it out at 100% only cuts reload by 50%). if a pulse is slaved, it increases the damage further, but lowers its range. If a beam is slaved, it increases its range, and lowers the spread of the effects, and finally if slaved to a missile, it fires a multiple of little torpedoes non heatseeking(Still needs lock on to fire) that do much lower damage per impact, and have the same range as a standard torpedo, but pass through shields.

Now heres where it differs from a Missile/Pulse set up, it gains bonus damage against armor HP, and a far bigger AOE in a circle around it, while loosing some of its damage against Structure HP, and spaced armor stops the explosion and damage entirely.

Yes i know this is radically different from whats in game now, but it would save quite a bit of space and maybe allow for some interesting ships to be made focused around them entirely. Kinda like the Torpedo frigates in HW work. Terrible against faster ships, and dangerous against larger ones.

*if* yall think this isnt the thread for it, ill create a suggestion thread for it!

Don't you think that's a little unnecessary? Everything you've listed, I've already done; even the spread torpedo.

You're basically reinventing the missile system all over again and possibly stunting the ability (necessity) to get creative with mines, anti-capital bombers and specialized heavy weapons. Your idea also gives players an unlimited supply of shield piercing weaponry. Bad idea.

"Regarding space and ship focus"; You were on that other thread with us. Did you take a look at our designs? I can fit 25 self propelled torpedoes in an 11m x 11m x 6m space and hit a target beyond 4km without a guidance system. My Laucher was specifically designed to allow my primary ship alternate between carrying fighters, cargo or up to 75 torpedoes. Is that not "spacious" and "focused" enough.

 

[Deserea]

Don't you think that's a little unnecessary? Everything you've listed, I've already done; even the spread torpedo.

You're basically reinventing the missile system all over again and possibly stunting the ability (necessity) to get creative with mines, anti-capital bombers and specialized heavy weapons. Your idea also gives players an unlimited supply of shield piercing weaponry. Bad idea.

"Regarding space and ship focus"; You were on that other thread with us. Did you take a look at our designs? I can fit 25 self propelled torpedoes in an 11m x 11m x 6m space and hit a target beyond 4km without a guidance system. My Laucher was specifically designed to allow my primary ship alternate between carrying fighters, cargo or up to 75 torpedoes. Is that not "spacious" and "focused" enough.

Actually i did, and thats where this idea came up from. I saw all those designs and they are quite ingenious though under current warhead conditions, completely broken, props to everybody for making them, this idea also came to be after me asking if warheads where any good and getting laughed at in the server im on, because i wanted to use torpedo drones on the carrier im building.

Im not removing anything except for spending a lot of time making a limited use weapon, rather adding to it, Want anti capital bombers, use the torpedo modules, they are specially designed for that or you can use the other heavy weapons, and the long reload would still be similiar to you currently having to leave and go restock your ammo stores, the more armor points a ship has the more damage they do, Nuke Missiles travel faster than torpedoes, and can turn faster but do less damage to armor though more structure damage, Siege cannons have a way faster reload and travel far faster than a torpedo, etc, each has their uses still under this system.
Mines, i could swear they had a mine weapon type in the works(thought that may have been cancelled, which would be a shame, from what i read it would be amazing to have.), specialized heavy weapons still have a place with my system too.

I didnt say this in my suggestion though maybe i should have, the shield piercing abilities would be removed, or reduced on all but the missile slave one. (if youve ever played sins of a solar empire think the Vasari phase missiles, they have a chance to pass through shields, but its not always guranteed)

This removes the ammo limit of torpedoes, (heck you could even keep that, by having to load in warheads to the warhead computer ahead of time, though if they had ammo, they would use very little power to fire to balance out the ammo portion, if no ammo, they use more energy than any of the other heavy weapons). You can still use warheads for mines too, if need be with this latter suggestion. You could also even make the warhead computer a danger still to the ship, since it would function similar to hitting a modern day destroyers torpedo stores, or /any/ ships ammo stores.

 

[Lecic]

I wouldn't mind a replacement of warhead torps with a warhead launcher mechanism, but it'd need to have a slow reload time, pull warheads from storage (and give warheads a large volume), and be dumbfire at... .98x server max speed? And, of course, still explode if it hit your own ship.

 

[Deserea]

I wouldn't mind a replacement of warhead torps with a warhead launcher mechanism, but it'd need to have a slow reload time, pull warheads from storage (and give warheads a large volume), and be dumbfire at... .98x server max speed? And, of course, still explode if it hit your own ship.

that seems like a decent idea too. way easier than reinventing the wheel xD

 

[PizzaPress]

I think a step in the right direction would be adding a "torpedo" setting for AI that makes it want to ram enemy ships as long as it has disintegrators on board. That would cut down on the overly high cost and block count in using guided torps.

this so very much
Two of warheads' advantages is that they cost less and bypass shields, but they are single-use melee. Without the ability for them to track, however, you're pretty much limited to throwing them at pirate stations(e.g. put them on a stick a ways away whilst cloaked, and harvest turret loots).

If we had damage 5-10x, cost 1-2x, multiple warheads could group together, and AI ramming option, I think we'd be in business.
I don't think "griefing" is a concern; so long as you can't easily leave massive fields of them around to just track and destroy everyone(t'would be fun though).

Maybe you have to choose targets?(or even all enemies, just only ones currently there can be tracked)
(maybe can change targets after launch with AI control?)

 

[Dr. Whammy]

Actually i did, and thats where this idea came up from. I saw all those designs and they are quite ingenious though under current warhead conditions, completely broken, props to everybody for making them, this idea also came to be after me asking if warheads where any good and getting laughed at in the server im on, because i wanted to use torpedo drones on the carrier im building.

Im not removing anything except for spending a lot of time making a limited use weapon, rather adding to it, Want anti capital bombers, use the torpedo modules, they are specially designed for that or you can use the other heavy weapons, and the long reload would still be similiar to you currently having to leave and go restock your ammo stores, the more armor points a ship has the more damage they do, Nuke Missiles travel faster than torpedoes, and can turn faster but do less damage to armor though more structure damage, Siege cannons have a way faster reload and travel far faster than a torpedo, etc, each has their uses still under this system.
Mines, i could swear they had a mine weapon type in the works(thought that may have been cancelled, which would be a shame, from what i read it would be amazing to have.), specialized heavy weapons still have a place with my system too.

I didnt say this in my suggestion though maybe i should have, the shield piercing abilities would be removed, or reduced on all but the missile slave one. (if youve ever played sins of a solar empire think the Vasari phase missiles, they have a chance to pass through shields, but its not always guranteed)

This removes the ammo limit of torpedoes, (heck you could even keep that, by having to load in warheads to the warhead computer ahead of time, though if they had ammo, they would use very little power to fire to balance out the ammo portion, if no ammo, they use more energy than any of the other heavy weapons). You can still use warheads for mines too, if need be with this latter suggestion. You could also even make the warhead computer a danger still to the ship, since it would function similar to hitting a modern day destroyers torpedo stores, or /any/ ships ammo stores.

Vasari huh? "There is promise in you yet..."

The fun thing about warheads is that you can make any size or shape and weaponize them any way you want; land mines, space mines, grenades, carpet bombs, fragmentation bombs, MIRV missiles, auto destruct sequences, giant Gundam bazooka shells, explosive mech lances, heavy cannon shells, C4 boarding/breaching charges... With the current warheads, you are ONLY limited by your creativity. Reverting to a missile style computer severely cuts the necessity for creativity from them.

Remember; I tested my weapons extensively for range, accuracy, guidance capability, and reliable detonation as well as damage against multiple armor types. I made very good friends with the plex-undeathinator before any of you saw my designs. Why? ...so everyone would know exactly what was needed to fix warheads to give the "little guys" a chance against capitals and add some depth to ranged assaults. In the end, I specifically set the damage in my test environment to 500,000 after deciding that it was the most realistic and reasonable damage scale for a weapon of this nature and size; Enough Oomph to alpha kill a small ship, severely damage a 1,000-3,000 mass ship and be a realistic concern for capitals who think they are invincible.

With warheads, you get a reasonable size and realistic payload that can be as big

Spoiler

...or as small

Spoiler

as anyone could ever need.

With regard to the original warheads being "broken", I'd have to agree with PizzaPress; as the other suggestions are essentially just another reinvention of the wheel. A damage and radius buff with detection by point defense would fix anything wrong with the system. Just fix the Bobby AI and you're good to go.

 

[Deserea]

Vasari huh? "There is promise in you yet..."

The fun thing about warheads is that you can make any size or shape and weaponize them any way you want; land mines, space mines, grenades, carpet bombs, fragmentation bombs, MIRV missiles, auto destruct sequences, giant Gundam bazooka shells, explosive mech lances, heavy cannon shells, C4 boarding/breaching charges... With the current warheads, you are ONLY limited by your creativity. Reverting to a missile style computer severely cuts the necessity for creativity from them.

Remember; I tested my weapons extensively for range, accuracy, guidance capability, and reliable detonation as well as damage against multiple armor types. I made very good friends with the plex-undeathinator before any of you saw my designs. Why? ...so everyone would know exactly what was needed to fix warheads to give the "little guys" a chance against capitals and add some depth to ranged assaults. In the end, I specifically set the damage in my test environment to 500,000 after deciding that it was the most realistic and reasonable damage scale for a weapon of this nature and size; Enough Oomph to alpha kill a small ship, severely damage a 1,000-3,000 mass ship and be a realistic concern for capitals who think they are invincible.

With warheads, you get a reasonable size and realistic payload that can be as big

Spoiler

View attachment 20111

...or as small

Spoiler

View attachment 20112

as anyone could ever need.

With regard to the original warheads being "broken", I'd have to agree with PizzaPress; as the other suggestions are essentially just another reinvention of the wheel. A damage and radius buff with detection by point defense would fix anything wrong with the system. Just fix the Bobby AI and you're good to go.

I see your point really, though i agree with what was posted by someone above us, have a warhead launcher block that launches warheads when activated(all it does) and you have to load it with warheads which can still be used on logic torpedoes mines, suicide ships, etc for bigger payloads >:D But the damage or something needs buffed on the ones in game.

Maybe ill make a phasic missile suggestion for that idea, its pretty neat and would open up some terrifying doors!