AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!!!Space Engeneers have better planets!

    serge1944

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    Hello,
    So i was watching Space Engeneers and I noticed that they have huge planets.
    Starmade doesn't have huge planets because of bad performance but asswell the reson of this performance is because blocks that we can't see are generated,
    Example: Half the planet that we can't see is generating for no reson this includes underground blocks and generating blocks in cubes instead of first what you can see.


    But I did notice some huge performance gain in Starmade over this year,I started from 30 fps to 110 fps.
    And now i load up huge planets That I can land my medium ships on it .Or having a battle of 6 medium ships with 20 helicopters(but the reason I did not have huge performance drop is because I was only seeing 2 of the medium ships) or having a battle of 1000 fighters(Yes I did).
     

    Ithirahad

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    They do have better planets. As much as I love hating on people suggesting pulling in features from other games, I'd much rather have Space Engineers planets (and maybe asteroids) than our current system.
     
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    How are the planets done in Space Engineers? Is it something remotely implementable in StarMade?
     

    therimmer96

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    How are the planets done in Space Engineers? Is it something remotely implementable in StarMade?
    They're using real voxels, which I don't think starmade has any kind of support for *yet*
     

    Ithirahad

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    No it is not.
    Yes it is. It would just have to use a completely new voxel system that is not the current block system. Not impossible, though, and with a few tricks it could work fine. Schema's old 'round planets' demo tried to curve the current 'boxels' or whatever he calls them into a sphere, which did not work for several reasons; a smooth terrainmap, however, might work fine because it would just use a bunch of voxel data (but not block data... a different system) wrapped into a sphere somehow.

    Disclaimer: I have no idea what I'm talking about. Also the SE planets may still cause physics performance issues. IDK.
     

    Master_Artificer

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    Yes it is. It would just have to use a completely new voxel system that is not the current block system. Not impossible, though, and with a few tricks it could work fine. Schema's old 'round planets' demo tried to curve the current 'boxels' or whatever he calls them into a sphere, which did not work for several reasons; a smooth terrainmap, however, might work fine because it would just use a bunch of voxel data (but not block data... a different system) wrapped into a sphere somehow.

    Disclaimer: I have no idea what I'm talking about. Also the SE planets may still cause physics performance issues. IDK.
    okay, yes if you completely rewrite the game and how it functions. I was kinda talking about a practical or realistic view.
     

    Ithirahad

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    You would not have to rewrite the game; it's 'just' a new feature. A big feature - an immense feature - but a new feature. This isn't a rewrite-the-whole-engine sort of thing. The new voxel system would just be a new system, not on top of or replacing the old code. The ship voxel system may need new collision code to handle collision with planets, though.

    Again, as far as I know, and I don't know too much.
     
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    The SE planets require a godawful amount of system resources--I'm running a lower end box (though the several members of the SE forums call me a PC Master Racer for saying so) with 16 gigs of RAM, and after building some small structures on a planet in the Solar System start it's gobbling up 10 gigs. Now we put that in StarMade, with planets closer together... and more of them... and you're gonna have a bad time.

    The SE planets run terribly right now (though are pretty cool), and when you dig too far down your stuff starts despawning so you've got maybe 200 meters to play with of depth...

    So sure they're prettier, but they're also buggier than what we have right now in Starmade. They're also not procedurally generated--the three planets and moons we have right now were all hand-made (part of the reason it took so long to release the update).
     

    takethispie

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    well in fact you don't know much because the block system is justa kinda the CORE of starmade engine not some layer on top of an engine, the engine is built to work with blocks, optimized to work with blocks, also in terms of performance SE totally sucks against Starmade like, really. (some gameplay part too)

    I own both games by the way :)
     
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    The SE planets require a godawful amount of system resources--I'm running a lower end box (though the several members of the SE forums call me a PC Master Racer for saying so) with 16 gigs of RAM, and after building some small structures on a planet in the Solar System start it's gobbling up 10 gigs. Now we put that in StarMade, with planets closer together... and more of them... and you're gonna have a bad time.

    The SE planets run terribly right now (though are pretty cool), and when you dig too far down your stuff starts despawning so you've got maybe 200 meters to play with of depth...

    So sure they're prettier, but they're also buggier than what we have right now in Starmade. They're also not procedurally generated--the three planets and moons we have right now were all hand-made (part of the reason it took so long to release the update).
    This absolutely

    I actually just spent the past few days playing SE exclusively just so I could authoritatively talk shit about the planets and performance. SE planets are probably an apt analogy for the entire game. They look pretty, they really do. But they run like ass and they are glitchy as hell. It's hard to see in videos but the voxels are literally always shifting. It's bizarre. The slightest contact with anything will cause deformation. To test I landed a small fighter on a flat patch of land. I left it for three days and came back to find the land had deformed around it, even though I had powered down the reactors on board and there was no reason for physics calculations to take place. The same thing takes place with stations.

    Honestly, it'd probably be better if you actually did more research beyond a youtube video before making a topic like this.
     

    Ithirahad

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    The SE planets require a godawful amount of system resources--I'm running a lower end box (though the several members of the SE forums call me a PC Master Racer for saying so) with 16 gigs of RAM, and after building some small structures on a planet in the Solar System start it's gobbling up 10 gigs. Now we put that in StarMade, with planets closer together... and more of them... and you're gonna have a bad time.
    Probably because the game is in development... And the planets aren't optimized...

    The SE planets run terribly right now (though are pretty cool), and when you dig too far down your stuff starts despawning so you've got maybe 200 meters to play with of depth...
    Ditto.

    So sure they're prettier, but they're also buggier than what we have right now in Starmade. They're also not procedurally generated--the three planets and moons we have right now were all hand-made (part of the reason it took so long to release the update).
    Current bugginess isn't really a measure of how the planets would work; SE in general is far worse optimization-wise than StarMade, and seeing as the planets were just released it's even worse. As for the planets, procedural generation is entirely possible seeing as the planets are made from voxels; games like... well, StarMade... have pulled it off before, and there are plenty of tech demos for smoothed voxel terrain generation out there, if not full games. (And if not, they're definitely coming.) I think the SE team just wanted to get the current planets out then work on procedural planets.

    In any case, the current, pretty-but-terrible-acting planets in SE, with all their bugs (which, being bugs, are just issues to fix almost by definition) have far more potential to become immersive, decent-looking places to go than StarMade's current planets... Once all the derpy bugs are gone, of course. But knowing SE, they'll continue to perform terribly, even with tiny ships, not because that's a limitation of the planets, but because that's a limitation of SE. Or it may just be that they're trying to get the game feature-complete before optimizing at the end, which may or may not be a good idea depending on who you ask.

    This absolutely

    I actually just spent the past few days playing SE exclusively just so I could authoritatively talk shit about the planets and performance. SE planets are probably an apt analogy for the entire game. They look pretty, they really do. But they run like ass and they are glitchy as hell.
    Very true, but this just kinda proves my point.
    It's hard to see in videos but the voxels are literally always shifting. It's bizarre. The slightest contact with anything will cause deformation. To test I landed a small fighter on a flat patch of land. I left it for three days and came back to find the land had deformed around it, even though I had powered down the reactors on board and there was no reason for physics calculations to take place. The same thing takes place with stations.
    That is a collision engine bug that occurs with all their voxel structures, it seems. We don't have it and it's not really a concern for us seeing as we don't use their odd voxel deformation system. It also happens to have absolutely nothing to do with their planet architecture in particular, as you said yourself.
    Honestly, it'd probably be better if you actually did more research beyond a youtube video before making a topic like this.
    The planets are "better." Hell, a few of their other concepts are "better" too. The problem is that the physical, programmed game isn't, at least in its current state.
     
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    ut knowing SE, they'll continue to perform terribly, even with tiny ships, not because that's a limitation of the planets, but because that's a limitation of SE. Or it may just be that they're trying to get the game feature-complete before optimizing at the end, which may or may not be a good idea depending on who you ask.
    I would argue that it's a limitation of the development team since they decided in their infinite wisdom to release planets prematurely rather than rewrite the god-awful netcode first but I guess that's just me

    disclaimer: SE netcode is fine with 2-4 people but more than that and weird things start to happen, ESPECIALLY with planets
     
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    Probably because the game is in development... And the planets aren't optimized...


    Ditto.



    Current bugginess isn't really a measure of how the planets would work; SE in general is far worse optimization-wise than StarMade, and seeing as the planets were just released it's even worse. As for the planets, procedural generation is entirely possible seeing as the planets are made from voxels; games like Seed of Andromeda (and StarMade, albeit without the smoothing) have pulled it off before. I think the SE team just wanted to get the current planets out then work on procedural planets.

    In any case, the current, pretty-but-terrible-acting planets in SE, with all their bugs (which, being bugs, are just issues to fix almost by definition) have far more potential to become immersive, decent-looking places to go than StarMade's current planets... Once all the derpy bugs are gone, of course. But knowing SE, they'll continue to perform terribly, even with tiny ships, not because that's a limitation of the planets, but because that's a limitation of SE. Or it may just be that they're trying to get the game feature-complete before optimizing at the end, which may or may not be a good idea depending on who you ask.
    My comments on their hand-crafting come from some of the dev blog posts by KSH themselves--they tried the procedural noise-mapping commonly used and it didn't work, so in the end they said they were just going to focus on hand-crafting planets (and possibly including player-made designs such as they have with NPC ships) from now on.

    And, as much as I love the game itself, their work with optimization really isn't helped by the community, which is Keen's downfall--because of the negative PR gained by Miner Wars, they listen to the community's loudest segments: the reason we had multiplayer rushed and why it's so terrible was due to a huge outcry. The reason we have hunger coming is because of community outcry. The reason we have aliens and soft sci-fi tech inbound is due to the loudest, whiniest part of the playerbase going "this engineering is stupid I'm bored we need more guns and aliens and stuff" when the game was intended to be hard sci-fi from the get-go. Etc, etc, etc.

    So while I really want to see it succeed, SE just has too much feature creep into Generic Sci Fi Survival Shooter to really give Keen the benefit of the doubt that they'll be able to optimize it. I have hopes that they will, but I've owned it since launch and it's just gotten more and more generic survival crap and less and less actual engineering stuff shoehorned in to please a loud minority of players (something like 300,000 copies sold, but they're acting on the whims of something like 500 players spam posting).

    As to waiting until they're done with feature completion... I really highly doubt that at this point--again, because they keep adding in things to please the playerbase that yells the loudest. Pistons and Rotors don't work worth a damn and probably won't, they've been promising rails for freaking ever but had to add energy and oxygen and now FOOD...

    And then there's Starmade. I want a door on my ship that slides out and looks cool, or a cockpit pod for my helm position on the bridge? I can have it... because rails don't randomly make my ship explode. I want to land my ship on a planet? Awesome, yeah... because a 3 meter per second touchdown doesn't crumple 3/4s of my 2 meter thick heavy armor landing skids.

    Starmade has the right idea. Give us a huge amount of tools, and let us go. We don't need to have every element out of Rust or ARK to enjoy ourselves, we just need the tools to allow us to make our own content--servers exist with everything from creative to hardcore survival modes and those are player-driven, not forced on the community as a whole by some disgruntled fans.
     
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    As to waiting until they're done with feature completion... I really highly doubt that at this point--again, because they keep adding in things to please the playerbase that yells the loudest. Pistons and Rotors don't work worth a damn and probably won't, they've been promising rails for freaking ever but had to add energy and oxygen and now FOOD...
    FUCKING THIS

    SE's promise went out the fucking door when they refused to make rotors and pistons usable for a year, and even the current fixes are barely worthy of the name. How long have the files for rails been in the game? Shit, IIRC there was snippets of code that suggested different ammunition types floating around.
     
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    FUCKING THIS

    SE's promise went out the fucking door when they refused to make rotors and pistons usable for a year, and even the current fixes are barely worthy of the name. How long have the files for rails been in the game? Shit, IIRC there was snippets of code that suggested different ammunition types floating around.
    To be entirely fair to Keen, at least they haven't pulled a CodeHatch.

    I sat on Starforge for 2 years as they removed features and introduced new bugs, finally getting a buggy alpha release as 1.0 where they "quit game design"... and then released a slightly reskinned game in the form of Reign of Kings and blocked refunds on Starforge.

    I don't really like the sudden focus on survival shooty killfest, but it could be much, much, much worse.
     

    Ithirahad

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    FUCKING THIS

    SE's promise went out the fucking door when they refused to make rotors and pistons usable for a year, and even the current fixes are barely worthy of the name. How long have the files for rails been in the game? Shit, IIRC there was snippets of code that suggested different ammunition types floating around.
    Kek, it seems... well, what's new, Keen sucks. I wasn't aware that the suck extended this far, but this is still off-topic and doesn't say anything about their planets' technical structure.

    My comments on their hand-crafting come from some of the dev blog posts by KSH themselves--they tried the procedural noise-mapping commonly used and it didn't work, so in the end they said they were just going to focus on hand-crafting planets (and possibly including player-made designs such as they have with NPC ships) from now on.
    That's not to say that procedural mapping has never worked for making things like this; it's been done before and is being done again (No Man's Sky comes to mind). Just that their implementation, which may or may not have been really shitty, did not work.

    And then there's Starmade. I want a door on my ship that slides out and looks cool, or a cockpit pod for my helm position on the bridge? I can have it... because rails don't randomly make my ship explode. I want to land my ship on a planet? Awesome, yeah... because a 3 meter per second touchdown doesn't crumple 3/4s of my 2 meter thick heavy armor landing skids.
    That's because Schine has an awesome and dedicated dev team... If SE had applied the same principles with their studio size and game concept they would have blown SM out of the water. To be fair, though, if you want a cockpit pod for your helm position in StarMade, you currently have to build it for purely aesthetic reasons (or plan it out from the start and build the ship so the core is in the pod), unlike SE. (this is changing soon though) And StarMade's rails have their own problems, although they are a lot less noticeable. Also, most of SE's problems come from its overcomplicated and evidently badly-written physics engine, problems we never ran into (literally or figuratively) because our physics engine is basically "fly into something at 300 m/s and either stop with no damage or glitch inside and start wiggling and derping all around until the game gives up and ejects you from the entity you're stuck inside."
    Starmade has the right idea. Give us a huge amount of tools, and let us go. We don't need to have every element out of Rust or ARK to enjoy ourselves, we just need the tools to allow us to make our own content--servers exist with everything from creative to hardcore survival modes and those are player-driven, not forced on the community as a whole by some disgruntled fans.
    StarMade does definitely have the right idea - that's why I'm still around, after all. I'm not suggesting that the team pull a Keen and start throwing random shit in the game because the community, or some whiny sector of the community, yelled the loudest, hell no. This is a discussion specifically about SE's planet system, and how it can be, potentially, adapted for StarMade. Not "The official yell about dev teams we don't like and praise Schine for all their greatness topic."
     
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    StarMade does definitely have the right idea - that's why I'm still around, after all. I'm not suggesting that the team pull a Keen and start throwing random shit in the game because the community, or some whiny sector of the community, yelled the loudest, hell no. This is a discussion specifically about SE's planet system, and how it can be, potentially, adapted for StarMade. Not "The official yell about dev teams we don't like and praise Schine for all their greatness topic."
    The commentary there wasn't so much bitching about someone I don't like and praise Schine--the planets being how they are is a direct result of how they're handling player input. As a result, certain parts were rushed, some parts were half-assed, and yet others were... handled oddly.

    Schine couldn't do that with their system because, well... from what I've seen, Schine doesn't have a habit of half-assing game features to nearly that extent. We'd either see it take months to come about so that it came out properly, or it'd be rejected outright as being too difficult to implement properly and well.
     

    Ithirahad

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    The commentary there wasn't so much bitching about someone I don't like and praise Schine--the planets being how they are is a direct result of how they're handling player input. As a result, certain parts were rushed, some parts were half-assed, and yet others were... handled oddly.

    Schine couldn't do that with their system because, well... from what I've seen, Schine doesn't have a habit of half-assing game features to nearly that extent. We'd either see it take months to come about so that it came out properly, or it'd be rejected outright as being too difficult to implement properly and well.
    ...Which is probably half of why Schine is holding off on doing too much drastic stuff with planets at the moment (aside from prior plans), thank goodness. But some day, at a good time, when the game is more fleshed out and stable, I hope they get around to adding in a smoothed-voxel-based sphere system like this, or something else equally awesome (Seed of Andromeda planets come to mind, but I've no idea if those would work in a seamless infinite universe).
     
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    Just thinking about it, star made can handle millions of blocks with ease. SE however, wouldn't let you get anywhere NEAR that sort of size/scale.
    It requires far to high-end hardware to be of interest to me.
    While Stamade planets are far from perfect, Im sure that well see more work done on them in the future.

    Oh yeah, And id also like the ability to rotate grass blocks XD