Would you be okay with a game engine change for Starmade?

    Would you be okay with a game engine change for Starmade?


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    Thanks for the many replies, interesting to see other peoples view points on it. As I stated from the start I won't be discussing any ones points as I only wanted to see their take on things as everyone is entitled to their opinion and will rarely change their minds on such a matter.

    Again thanks for taking the time to express yourself. :)

    I myself can see huge benefits from changing to another engine/language/code or whatever you want to call it. (Just because you call a spade a shovel, you still know it digs holes :p) but I am not the one coding this game. If Schema feels Java is the best way to go and has logical reasons then I respect that and will just go along for the ride and see how the final destination turns out.

    But I do hope we get there sooner than later. Even we adults can have short attention spans. ;)
     
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    Minecraft still uses Java, it just comes packaged with the game now. This, as far as I know, is also planned for starmade.
    What kind of a M$ brainfart is this - why would I want a separate instance of Java for anything?
    They might as well ship their OS with the game, bloating downloads, creating maintenance and security nightmares - if not for the publisher, then certainly for the user.
    In the case of Microsoft, the intention is clear - locking users into their ecosystem, controlling what the user can and can't do. For an indie like Schine, I just don't see where it would make sense.
     
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    java is object oriented.
    Hmm. I suppose this is the danger of talking about a language I have no experience in--I've done some projects with Ruby, C#, and C++; but I've always avoided Java like the plague.

    Still doesn't change the fact that the syntax is different--as I said before in the post you so kindly quoted one single word from, even Ruby, a derivative of C#, has a fairly different syntax than C#. And they're related directly.
     
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    What kind of a M$ brainfart is this - why would I want a separate instance of Java for anything?
    They might as well ship their OS with the game, bloating downloads, creating maintenance and security nightmares - if not for the publisher, then certainly for the user.
    In the case of Microsoft, the intention is clear - locking users into their ecosystem, controlling what the user can and can't do. For an indie like Schine, I just don't see where it would make sense.
    It actually makes sense. You always get the right version of java, and it supposedly closes security holes. A lot of the problems people have running the game is because they are not using the correct version of java, such as having a 64 bit system and only 32bit java

    http://www.howtogeek.com/210907/minecraft-doesnt-need-java-installed-anymore-its-time-to-remove-it/

    You still technically need Java, but it is now downloaded by the Minecraft launcher and stored with the launcher instead of installed across the entire system. If Minecraft is the only reason you have Java installed, you now have no reason to open up your system to Java vulnerabilities. The Java executable used by Minecraft stays with Minecraft and is as good as invisible and inaccessible to the rest of the system. Better yet, the Minecraft launcher automatically downloads the correct version for your system (all those players inadvertently using Java 32-bit on their 64-bit machines should see significant performance boosts thanks to this) and automatically updates it.
     

    therimmer96

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    What kind of a M$ brainfart is this - why would I want a separate instance of Java for anything?
    They might as well ship their OS with the game, bloating downloads, creating maintenance and security nightmares - if not for the publisher, then certainly for the user.
    In the case of Microsoft, the intention is clear - locking users into their ecosystem, controlling what the user can and can't do. For an indie like Schine, I just don't see where it would make sense.
    Its to help with people not having the correct java, the same reason starmade is doing it. iirc, mojang actually made a modified version of java for it, so they could fix issues they had. And it stops people bitching that they can't run the game because they get an error saying they have no java.

    Why would it lock people into the MS eco system? It's still available for linux and mac
     
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    Still doesn't change the fact that the syntax is different
    While generally true, the java syntax is intended to be as close to C/C++'s syntax as possible, so it isn't as hard for people to switch from one to the other. However, it still is very hard to switch a project from one to the other, as not only libraries differ, but java also does garbage collection, which C/C++ does not.
     
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    What kind of a M$ brainfart is this - why would I want a separate instance of Java for anything?
    They might as well ship their OS with the game, bloating downloads, creating maintenance and security nightmares - if not for the publisher, then certainly for the user.
    In the case of Microsoft, the intention is clear - locking users into their ecosystem, controlling what the user can and can't do. For an indie like Schine, I just don't see where it would make sense.
    Its to help with people not having the correct java, the same reason starmade is doing it. iirc, mojang actually made a modified version of java for it, so they could fix issues they had. And it stops people bitching that they can't run the game because they get an error saying they have no java.

    Why would it lock people into the MS eco system? It's still available for linux and mac
    (Consider these questions rhetorical)
    So now I have to have M$ Java for Minecraft, Schine Java for StarMade, n other Javas for n other programs, plus "regular old" Java for a few other programs that still don't roll their own?
    Wasn't the idea behind Java, and the reason for choosing it in the first place, something like "write once - run everywhere"? Instead of fixing their end, they now "modify" the environment... as I said, why not go that extra step and bypass the user's OS at all.
    Will M$ Java run on xBSD, or on non-x86 hardware? Or more to the point, on non-Windows non-Intel platforms? Will Schine Java?
    What "modifications" are rolled into M$ Java, along with how many accidental new security holes and intentional backdoors? Call me paranoid, but I don't trust them as far as I can spit.

    As for vendor lock-in, once M$ has made enough modifications that are required, but non-standard, you have to use their version for their Minecraft. Which currently runs on Macs and Linux... I won't be too surprised when they will announce phasing out support, first for Linux, not much later for Macs and PS3. Heck, they paid billions for it, they are going to reap the rewards. And hard. They have to, being a corporate business.

    I still don't see the benefits for Schine following suit. In addition to StarMade, they would have to maintain their own fork of Java and provide tech support for that as well. Just because the few users who accidentally managed to install 64bit Java refuse to figure out why it won't run on their Win95 laptop?
     

    therimmer96

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    I still don't see the benefits for Schine following suit. In addition to StarMade, they would have to maintain their own fork of Java and provide tech support for that as well. Just because the few users who accidentally managed to install 64bit Java refuse to figure out why it won't run on their Win95 laptop?
    Schines java is no different. Its just normal x64 java, and the game can still run on pre-installed java if told to. The new launcher merely points at the packaged one so you don't need it installed or to have the correct version.
     
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    Ithirahad

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    I myself can see huge benefits from changing to another engine/language/code or whatever you want to call it. (Just because you call a spade a shovel, you still know it digs holes :p)
    BIG difference here. Programming/coding language is one thing (Java vs. C# vs. C++ vs. Python, Ruby, whatever else you want to list) and engine (native Schine engine vs. new native engine vs. Unity vs. Unreal vs. CryEngine vs something Gamebryo-based, etc.).

    An engine is something you program that makes a game run, but a language is what you program it in. Of course Java and its JVM thing there's some bleedover (An engine written in Java and an engine written in something else will act differently) but...
     

    Master_Artificer

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    To summarize for people skimming the thread:

    Games are usually built around an engine, and that engine 99.9% of the time, never changes. When engines change, it is between games like "Assassinations with Guns 8" and "Assassinations with Guns 9" where they tweak the engine or swap it out for a new one.

    But the engine of a game is not swapped with a patch, it usually is a new game all together. That is because it is often a very time consuming task to reformat the entire code just for the language to read it, not to mention all the other changes.
    Might as well start from the ground up using what you already know and write to the strengths and shortfalls of the new 'engine'.

    And if their ever was a Starmade 2.0, it might have a different programming language.

    But the current game engine is a custom one made by Schema, Java is just the programming language.
    Java is good with objects and starmade is a voxel game with all kinds of blocks and entities.
     
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    I'd be fine with same engine or a new one. As long as the result is good...
     

    NeonSturm

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    This is completely and utterly incorrect.

    You're saying that you want them to change over to object oriented programming in, say, C# (if Unity) from Java... the differences between the syntax alone are actually pretty damn substantial. They're completely and totally different languages, with fairly distinct structure...

    I mean for a simpler case, look at Ruby vs C#--Ruby is a C# derivative language and is substantially different.

    The commentary on most of your time being debugging and adding semicolons however... that's spot on.​
    I was talking about the math, not the code.
    When writing it, I was thinking about math for balancing etc.
    If the re-write did not easily work natively in Linux, I'd drop the game immediately. :mad:
    Agree.
    (Consider these questions rhetorical)
    So now I have to have M$ Java for Minecraft, Schine Java for StarMade, n other Javas for n other programs, plus "regular old" Java for a few other programs that still don't roll their own?
    Wasn't the idea behind Java, and the reason for choosing it in the first place, something like "write once - run everywhere"? Instead of fixing their end, they now "modify" the environment... as I said, why not go that extra step and bypass the user's OS at all.
    Will M$ Java run on xBSD, or on non-x86 hardware? Or more to the point, on non-Windows non-Intel platforms? Will Schine Java?
    What "modifications" are rolled into M$ Java, along with how many accidental new security holes and intentional backdoors? Call me paranoid, but I don't trust them as far as I can spit.

    As for vendor lock-in, once M$ has made enough modifications that are required, but non-standard, you have to use their version for their Minecraft. Which currently runs on Macs and Linux... I won't be too surprised when they will announce phasing out support, first for Linux, not much later for Macs and PS3. Heck, they paid billions for it, they are going to reap the rewards. And hard. They have to, being a corporate business.

    I still don't see the benefits for Schine following suit. In addition to StarMade, they would have to maintain their own fork of Java and provide tech support for that as well. Just because the few users who accidentally managed to install 64bit Java refuse to figure out why it won't run on their Win95 laptop?
    I am not happy about this.
    If a user can't follow a simple how-to-install for Win,Mac,Linux * 32/64 = 6 options to choose from, this user isn't qualified for SM's complexity either.
     
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    On the issue of game engine changes. I'm reminded of this game called Duke Nukem Forever. This is not to say changing an engine shouldn't be done but has DNF showed anything if handled poorly it can leave a developer bankrupt with an incomplete game.
     

    Keptick

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    (Consider these questions rhetorical)
    So now I have to have M$ Java for Minecraft, Schine Java for StarMade, n other Javas for n other programs, plus "regular old" Java for a few other programs that still don't roll their own?
    Wasn't the idea behind Java, and the reason for choosing it in the first place, something like "write once - run everywhere"? Instead of fixing their end, they now "modify" the environment... as I said, why not go that extra step and bypass the user's OS at all.
    Will M$ Java run on xBSD, or on non-x86 hardware? Or more to the point, on non-Windows non-Intel platforms? Will Schine Java?
    What "modifications" are rolled into M$ Java, along with how many accidental new security holes and intentional backdoors? Call me paranoid, but I don't trust them as far as I can spit.

    As for vendor lock-in, once M$ has made enough modifications that are required, but non-standard, you have to use their version for their Minecraft. Which currently runs on Macs and Linux... I won't be too surprised when they will announce phasing out support, first for Linux, not much later for Macs and PS3. Heck, they paid billions for it, they are going to reap the rewards. And hard. They have to, being a corporate business.

    I still don't see the benefits for Schine following suit. In addition to StarMade, they would have to maintain their own fork of Java and provide tech support for that as well. Just because the few users who accidentally managed to install 64bit Java refuse to figure out why it won't run on their Win95 laptop?
    So many unsound assumptions in this post it almost hurts...
     
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    Say there would be some time before the Unity version was ready and while you could still play the current version of StarMade all updating and support would be dropped for it and you might not see the new game and new features for say 3 to 6 months but it meant you'd end up with a much better performing and optimised game.
    (edit: Typos)
    I think "better performing" and "optimized" are the key here. If Schine can get the game optimized and performing well, the language and engine used are irrelevant to me.

    Personally, I would like to see them step back and do a performance pass before adding any more content to the game. I would have been willing to wait a long time for things like transporters, dark grey blocks and cargo if they could keep our servers from crashing when someone tries to mine a planet or collides with another ship.

    It's a game developer mantra to "optimize last," and that's great for keeping up developers' momentum and enthusiasm for their unfinished product, but I think that the situation is a little different with Starmade. There is a large community that has been actively playing, and paying for, this game as though it were a finished product. Maybe it's time Schine started thinking about it the same way.
     
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    On the issue of game engine changes. I'm reminded of this game called Duke Nukem Forever. This is not to say changing an engine shouldn't be done but has DNF showed anything if handled poorly it can leave a developer bankrupt with an incomplete game.
    I'd just like to point out that DNF suffered far more from overhyping and absurd expectations than it did from the engine changes. Guys that played earler Duke games somehow seemed to forget that it was all over the top violence and immature obscene humor.

    The game delivers that in spades.

    The level design suffered greatly, but that's more the fault of "this is how it's done" (can you think of another shooter that doesn't corridor you these days?), the humor is pretty much just as forced as it always was, and there's strippers.

    It's the same old Duke, most of the reviewers were just either Too Grown Up To Laugh, or hadn't been gaming when the first DN3D title hit and thus weren't privy to the jokes. DNF was precisely what it said on the tin, it was Duke being obscene and blowing up pigcops, same as always. The two-weapon thing was patched out pretty quick because it was fucking moronic, it looked pretty for what it was, and it ran fairly smoothly.

    In the end, it was poisoned by people expecting AMAZING and getting... just another DN3D with gimped level design.

    I think "better performing" and "optimized" are the key here. If Schine can get the game optimized and performing well, the language and engine used are irrelevant to me.

    Personally, I would like to see them step back and do a performance pass before adding any more content to the game. I would have been willing to wait a long time for things like transporters, dark grey blocks and cargo if they could keep our servers from crashing when someone tries to mine a planet or collides with another ship.

    It's a game developer mantra to "optimize last," and that's great for keeping up developers' momentum and enthusiasm for their unfinished product, but I think that the situation is a little different with Starmade. There is a large community that has been actively playing, and paying for, this game as though it were a finished product. Maybe it's time Schine started thinking about it the same way.
    The community isn't that far removed from the community surrounding Minecraft, and we had to wait... well, it still has performance issues, and it's been 1.0 for a couple years.

    We're not paying for a full product--those that did purchase it that is, since there's still the option to play it completely free--we're essentially paying them for the privilege to stress test their software. As a result, we're along for the ride as the game grows, but we're also gonna have to deal with performance and stability issues because that's just how it goes in testing. And it's not really an enthusiasm thing either--the reason why the mantra is to optimize last, is because each new feature added can (and often will) wreck that optimization all over again. So our options are... have a steady influx of new features until they're all in place, then optimization, bugfixing, and balancing... or one new feature release, four months of fixing, another feature release, four more months of fixing (for the same problems), etc etc ad infinitum.

    I mean it could be worse. Freelance testing ten years ago gave you no promise as to whether or not a game would even avoid throwing your system into a BSOD... I have some stories, youngins, I have some stories... :P
     
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    Just because the few users who accidentally managed to install 64bit Java refuse to figure out why it won't run on their Win95 laptop?
    Most of it is not because java does not run at all, but because their drivers are incompatible with the installed version of java. Most common is x86 software on x64 OS and hardware, not x64 software on x86 hardware. It technically does run, but does not meet the requirements for the 3D rendering StarMade does, resulting in crashes on startup. A large, if not the largest, part of the support questions I am aware of can be boiled down to that. The most common fix is to install the 64bit JDK, which is generally more compatible, than the JRE.