Would you be okay with a game engine change for Starmade?

    Would you be okay with a game engine change for Starmade?


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    why are people not familiar with programming bringing up programming related suggestions? Yes there are studios using tools which may have an easier time to exchange an engine for another but this does never apply for "crafted to fit" solutions. In theory though the fit solutions run less ressource heavy and perform better. that advantage in java driven games is eaten up by the interpreter. *sigh* anyway you can't compare such stuff.
     

    NeonSturm

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    Yes there are studios using tools which may have an easier time to exchange an engine for another
    but this does never apply for "crafted to fit" solutions.
    Then, here, this refers to change the primary support-goal of the engine. Blocks vs Polygons is just one example of such a goal, Data structure used throughout all existing code is another.
    Until a compiler could compile all different human languages into math end compile math into assembler-code, then you would likely have succeeded far beyond current tools.
    That is the ultimate goal we currently strife for, but then the question will arise wether the human or computer(AI?) is the author.​

    When you have a compiler that changes the code where needed to do the work of an interpreter on itself and optimize it, it would be superior to Java and C++.
     
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    Then, here, this refers to change the primary support-goal of the engine. Blocks vs Polygons is just one example of such a goal, Data structure used throughout all existing code is another.
    Until a compiler could compile all different human languages into math end compile math into assembler-code, then you would likely have succeeded far beyond current tools.
    That is the ultimate goal we currently strife for, but then the question will arise wether the human or computer(AI?) is the author.​
    You can't compile human language to math. Also programming code is not pure math.


    When you have a compiler that changes the code where needed to do the work of an interpreter on itself and optimize it, it would be superior to Java and C++.
    If humanity will have intepreter to optimize code, then humanity will also have technology to build AI that will programm by itself. Because You need to exactly know what are You going to programm to optimize it well. Optimizing is mainly implementing things in creative way.
     
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    NeonSturm

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    You can't compile human language to math. Also programming code is not pure math.
    Everything that a computer can execute is math. Loops are easy to write but several different math operations (address pointer, branche's-jump-lengths, ...)
    If humanity will have intepreter to optimize code, then humanity will also have technology to build AI that will programm by itself. Because You need to exactly know what are You going to programm to optimize it well. Optimizing is mainly implementing things in creative way.
    Maybe you can program creativity. I got many ideas in the past years when I read and thought about this topic.
    Writing a complete AI out of your mind is the difficult thing. Perhaps it is easier to copy your personality through your keyboard and check wether the AI-code can handle everything you can to get an idea of how you have to program it.

    When thinking about AI's and the future of programming, I think programmers will be more busy patching possible ethical issues that arise from different points of view of the thruth then programming it in code rather than human language.

    Killing is bad. Why? It removes something unique with a minimum, but no maximum measurable value.
    Why is that bad? Because humans have an aversion to new things if they feel uncomfortable with it - or feel not prepared to make a decision.
    Don't do anything until you are sure it is ok. Follow the rules of society until you find a thing that you think wasn't considered when the rule was made.
    But when you are put into choice to choose between attacker's and defender's life, (1) let it happen (2) choose the defender's side (3) agree with the attacker in his right.​
    "Emotions/Soul" :
    Aversion to changes you don't understand.
    Desire to find your value (to survive the society, keep interactions=trades of information).
    Push something : if you know it is the right thing to do.
    Human interactions : The more trades you make, the faster you gather more than others. Even if not every trade is fair to you (kindness).
    Anger : Show you are hurt for the case others don't notice.
    Hate : When enough humans receive enough pain, common evil must be purged. It is misleading information, the human error that makes this emotion bad.
    …to be continued…​
    I haven't found a single thing for which I have no answer how to convert to a program. Jet I can never be sure to capture 100% of cases and I can only guess my progress.

    Why is AI-research important NOW? Because it is worse when everything is already connected and an AI runs amok.
    Personally I fear more that humans which are connected via implants do the thing we fear when thinking about AIs. (Remind American slavery-history, Hitler, Hiroshima+Nakasaki, ...).
    And this urgent is what drives me into thinking about it (yes, I always know why I am doing anything when I question it)​
    But what should happen to programs created this way?
    If they get patented/licensed, wouldn't it be slavery? Will certain (important, mighty) tools only belong to the elite or to those who don't care about law and commonwealth?

    And if an AI can do everything a human can, wouldn't somebody try to either apply license laws to human experiences (slavery, our all enemy we must fight) or what would happen instead of that?​

    But when all that research is done and made compatible to certain computer architectures it will change our life at least as much as the internet did.

    Will androids (=ai+ roboter-body), cyborgs (=human + roboter-body), ... be the same as homosexual now? (can't bear human childs with only each other and are too uncommon to be respected by everyone at first).

    Will somebody build a game and realize he made a Matrix (like in the movie with Neo being a person which is different in each iteration fo the Matrix and which thinks it is a human escaping from the Matrix inside the Matrix)

    Or somebody makes a single AI that has multiple personalities that are NPCs ingame.​
     
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    Yes, I'd be okay with it, assuming it still works on *nix systems. I'm a programmer, I know this kind of change is a very tough call to make. The devs made the game what it is now, and if they think switching engines would lead to an improvement*, the least I can do is trust their call and not make it any harder for them.

    * And by improvement, I mean of any kind—if it didn't directly change user experience but led to easier code maintenance, or made their jobs easier in any other way, I'd definitely be supportive of it. If their job is easier, it'll probably be more enjoyable (/less stressful) and, as a result, the end product will most likely be better.

    On a side note:

    While generally true, the java syntax is intended to be as close to C/C++'s syntax as possible, so it isn't as hard for people to switch from one to the other.
    The problem is not syntax. When making any kind of software that demands a lot of processing (like starmade does), you want the code to be optimised. If the guys writing it up have more knowledge of Java than of C#, it's not up to anyone to tell them "oh, just switch, it'll be better". Over the years you learn a lot of oddities of the language you code in, neat tricks that you can do, obscure functions etc. All this can be used to squeeze every last drop of speed out of the code. It's not hard to make that switch if you're a beginner trying to get into a company, or if you're writing code for kicks. But once you actually know how to program in a language (i.e. years of experience), you don't just switch it just like that in the middle of an important project.

    why are people not familiar with programming bringing up programming related suggestions?
    YES, WHY? I'd even extend that to programmers. I'm an academic programmer, I abhor Java for its origins, I'm fully behind the FOSSM, I'd love for the game to be Libre or programmed on a Libre tool. But all of that is irrelevant, because I'm not the one programming this game. I'm a player, if Schine invites me to join them, I might discuss that with them (probably wouldn't), otherwise it's their business—even literally. Just because it's an open alpha and the devs reach out to the community often, it doesn't mean that the community should be offering uninvited opinion on these types of things.

    Regarding Schine using their own engine—if a student asked me advice, I'd probably tell them to pick one of the engines around for a number of reasons. Just like I'd tell them to use a programming language that's already around. But Schema is not my student, nor is he some dude who sits down in his free time and makes games for kicks. I think questioning his choice of programming language/engine is as rude as going into a chef's kitchen and telling them which knives to use, or which seasoning. You just don't do that, if you dislike the food, go eat somewhere else.

    So again, would I be "okay" with it? If the devs say "we will change engines", I don't even see why they should ask me if I'm "okay" with it or not. It literally is their business, not mine.

    (P.S. not hating on the OP, he probably had his reasons for asking)
     
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    Everything that a computer can execute is math. Loops are easy to write but several different math operations (address pointer, branche's-jump-lengths, ...)
    Processor is not about performing math. He can perform math but He is mainly about perforfming logic operations. How would u describe rounding numbers using just simple mathematicall operations (+, -, /, *)? Logic circuits are even lower level of thinking than math.

    Maybe you can program creativity. I got many ideas in the past years when I read and thought about this topic.
    Writing a complete AI out of your mind is the difficult thing. Perhaps it is easier to copy your personality through your keyboard and check wether the AI-code can handle everything you can to get an idea of how you have to program it.
    I'm not saying it's not. In fact I think that during next 50 years most of workers will be replaced with AI. There are already neural networks that can recognize what's on pictures showed to them and describe it with human language.
    https://www.ted.com/talks/fei_fei_li_how_we_re_teaching_computers_to_understand_pictures

    When thinking about AI's and the future of programming, I think programmers will be more busy patching possible ethical issues that arise from different points of view of the thruth then programming it in code rather than human language.

    Killing is bad. Why? It removes something unique with a minimum, but no maximum measurable value.
    Why is that bad? Because humans have an aversion to new things if they feel uncomfortable with it - or feel not prepared to make a decision.
    Don't do anything until you are sure it is ok. Follow the rules of society until you find a thing that you think wasn't considered when the rule was made.
    But when you are put into choice to choose between attacker's and defender's life, (1) let it happen (2) choose the defender's side (3) agree with the attacker in his right.
    "Emotions/Soul" :
    Aversion to changes you don't understand.
    Desire to find your value (to survive the society, keep interactions=trades of information).
    Push something : if you know it is the right thing to do.
    Human interactions : The more trades you make, the faster you gather more than others. Even if not every trade is fair to you (kindness).
    Anger : Show you are hurt for the case others don't notice.
    Hate : When enough humans receive enough pain, common evil must be purged. It is misleading information, the human error that makes this emotion bad.
    …to be continued…
    I haven't found a single thing for which I have no answer how to convert to a program. Jet I can never be sure to capture 100% of cases and I can only guess my progress.

    Why is AI-research important NOW? Because it is worse when everything is already connected and an AI runs amok.
    Personally I fear more that humans which are connected via implants do the thing we fear when thinking about AIs. (Remind American slavery-history, Hitler, Hiroshima+Nakasaki, ...).
    And this urgent is what drives me into thinking about it (yes, I always know why I am doing anything when I question it)
    But what should happen to programs created this way?
    If they get patented/licensed, wouldn't it be slavery? Will certain (important, mighty) tools only belong to the elite or to those who don't care about law and commonwealth?

    And if an AI can do everything a human can, wouldn't somebody try to either apply license laws to human experiences (slavery, our all enemy we must fight) or what would happen instead of that?
    You can't make set of rules for AI without tons of testing. More testing than u can think at first.

    Will somebody build a game and realize he made a Matrix (like in the movie with Neo being a person which is different in each iteration fo the Matrix and which thinks it is a human escaping from the Matrix inside the Matrix)
    You can't make anything that will be able to hold human minds accidentally.
     

    NeonSturm

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    How would u describe rounding numbers using just simple mathematical operations (+, -, /, *)? Logic circuits are even lower level of thinking than math.
    If you just have integers, divide by 2 and then multiply by 2 (bit-shifting) to cut 1 binary digit.
    You said ?simple and I don'T get your point. everything in a computer is built of AND,OR,NOT+storage. If logic circuits are lower than math and logic circuits can round an internal representation of a number, why can math not do the same?
    And if it is unable to, it would be lower than logic-circuits in a way and the statement "Logic circuits are even lower than math" would be false.
    You can't make set of rules for AI without tons of testing. More testing than u can think at first.
    We have already tested everything. Inside the human brain for even more than 10'000 years.
    You can't make anything that will be able to hold human minds accidentally.
    Not out of nothing.
    But if the game compiler is an AI making code of your human-language input it might happen, when you supply it from data about enough human or animal interactions.
     
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    If you just have integers, divide by 2 and then multiply by 2 (bit-shifting) to cut 1 binary digit.
    How do You check if You have integer? Just write a mathematical function with one variable that solves problem of rounding up numbers.
    Lemme ceremonially start:

    f(x)=


    We have already tested everything. Inside the human brain for even more than 10'000 years.
    Seriously? Do we have brain bugtracker? jk
    We have built in "OS", so it doesn't explain how to make ethical set of rules from scratch.

    Not out of nothing.
    But if the game compiler is an AI making code of your human-language input it might happen, when you supply it from data about enough human or animal interactions.
    You would need to use specific style language to avoid errors where all words are clear and don't have double meaning.
     

    NeonSturm

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    Seriously? Do we have brain bugtracker? jk
    We have built in "OS", so it doesn't explain how to make ethical set of rules from scratch.
    We will learn how to make it from scratch. One human learns this, another human can learn that. And one human reads what the others have done and makes a compilation of all of it to check if it is plausible and explains everything, given the minimum required information about the issue you are facing.
    You would need to use specific style language to avoid errors where all words are clear and don't have double meaning.
    God is almighty or not - dependent on religion.
    God is the only god or there are more - dependent on religion.
    Terrorists mean peoples acting against the laws or does it mean peoples intending to create fear? Depending on the point of view, legal special-op commandos or soilders from a different country are terrorists too.

    The words are clear. We just have forgotten the definition or missed some possible definitions.
    We also can't translate the christian God and Zeus, Thor, ... into a single word God. But we do and then the confusion starts.

    But again, it starts to get clear when you stop seeing God as a word and start seeing it as a word group with multiple valid definitions.
    Then you have to ask which definition to use, dependent on what you know about the one you are talking to.

    We use the same/similar word in different languages and claim that God has just one definition - ours, the christian meaning if you take it from the bible.
     
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    Most of it is not because java does not run at all, but because their drivers are incompatible with the installed version of java. Most common is x86 software on x64 OS and hardware, not x64 software on x86 hardware. It technically does run, but does not meet the requirements for the 3D rendering StarMade does, resulting in crashes on startup. A large, if not the largest, part of the support questions I am aware of can be boiled down to that. The most common fix is to install the 64bit JDK, which is generally more compatible, than the JRE.
    I have everything setup right, Java, SM, my drivers. OS. Right across the board, yet still with a GTX 970, overclocked i53570k, 8GB ram 64 bit Windows, decent PSU and this game still runs like crap when you have several ships on screen, I cannot imagine how those with 2gb of ram and a 32bit OS and Intel HD graphics can stand playing at 10fps.

    Only runs like most of my other single player games which have larger draw distances, textures, polygons etc when I am the only player on the dedicated server I play on. (single player is a bit laggy with constant server under load messages)

    So that is what my problem is with StarMade not the Game itself, what game there is, but the fact is it is terrbily optimised, and the optimisations that are made seem to work solo but not when as I said in an area with a few ships flying around and fighting, heck I just undock my ship and the game lags up awfully for a minute or two for no clearly logical explanation, crossing sectors is often like hitting a wall and more so when in combat.

    Just so much that really needs to be better optimised considering the ageof this 'alpha' and there are many issues I feel that will either take too much timeto fix or are impossibleto fix at all. e.g cube sectors need to go. If I can see a ship 10km then that ship needs to occupy the same space as me, no border crossing required that will screw things up.
    Java just has too many limitations for a game like this.

    I dunno, I just don't think Java is good for games no matter the skill level of the programmer and I do not think Schine is focused on the areas it needs to be. That's my 2cents any ways.
     

    NeonSturm

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    Just so much that really needs to be better optimised considering the ageof this 'alpha' and there are many issues I feel are just impossible to fix. e.g cube sectors need to go. If I can see a ship 10km then that ship needs to occupy the same space as me, no border crossing required that will screw things up.
    Schema started with blocks and will continue it with sectors and systems.

    Personally I prefer an area to be a volume between 4 points in space with the most dominant one being the centre of the coordinate system.

    Transition can happen if you map a player's movement to a vector on a point in a border-triangle between 3 points and then map that vector to the volume at the other side of this border.

    If the coordinate centre is the point if highest mass, x is between it and the point of second highest mass, y goes through the third point and crosses x at an right angle, you can even simulate orbits or formation around a ship with no relative movement.
     
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    We will learn how to make it from scratch. One human learns this, another human can learn that. And one human reads what the others have done and makes a compilation of all of it to check if it is plausible and explains everything, given the minimum required information about the issue you are facing.
    Oh I believe that we will learn how to make AI, just not by reading historical resources about people who lived until now. :p

    The words are clear. We just have forgotten the definition or missed some possible definitions.
    We also can't translate the christian God and Zeus, Thor, ... into a single word God. But we do and then the confusion starts.
    Defining things is equally hard to constructing complex sentencens.

    BTW I would suggest to ignore god, just like science do all the time.
     

    NeonSturm

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    BTW I would suggest to ignore god, just like science do all the time.
    It is not just god.
    Image search for "Big hole" gives you pictures of big caves and big ass-holes (or "pussies").
    I just remembered hole before remembering cave because in german it's "Höhle" - 4 letters are almost the same.

    And hole/cave are not too different from each other.​

    Anyway. What I wanted to say is that many of our words -especially abbreviations- can mean multiple things and you need to know the context to understand them.
    FBI = Federal Büro of Investigations
    FBI = A file format I remember to have seen
    FBI = F B number1 in some char-sets
    FBI = ??? an unknown number of definitions more​

    You always need to count in uncertainty.
    The result is never correct, only the most certain you can imagine.
    Is it too uncertain? Ask. Improve your ability to be certain. But don't be uncertain enough to ask Why Why Why like a child when you are supposed to be adult - live with the uncertainty.
     
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    back to topic. It is schine making the decisions here and i love their decisions for they went a route offering the game to multiple platforms. optimizing would always result in diferent versions for windoze mac and such and that is not good. maybe they will come up with something else but even then they will just do it and you will not get asked or have any influence about it and that is a good thing too.
     
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    It is not just god.
    Image search for "Big hole" gives you pictures of big caves and big ass-holes (or "pussies").
    I just remembered hole before remembering cave because in german it's "Höhle" - 4 letters are almost the same.

    And hole/cave are not too different from each other.​

    Anyway. What I wanted to say is that many of our words -especially abbreviations- can mean multiple things and you need to know the context to understand them.
    FBI = Federal Büro of Investigations
    FBI = A file format I remember to have seen
    FBI = F B number1 in some char-sets
    FBI = ??? an unknown number of definitions more​

    You always need to count in uncertainty.
    The result is never correct, only the most certain you can imagine.
    Is it too uncertain? Ask. Improve your ability to be certain. But don't be uncertain enough to ask Why Why Why like a child when you are supposed to be adult - live with the uncertainty.
    You don't need to count uncertainty. You will just need to learn specific style of speaking to don't speak uncertainly.

    Neon, should we create separated topic about that?
     
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    nightrune

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    Incoming wall of text:
    Responding to the title of the post. It's too late for an "engine change" but one of the beauties of Java is you can drop down into C when you need to through the jni. This is generally a late development cycle optimization though.



    Many people don't realize how software is usually written. Optimizations come very late because they can be hard, and force trade offs you don't want to think about while designing game mechanics. Schine will keep taking passes at optimization as they go, but really only when many of the features are. That way you can observe what's taking the most time and prioritize what needs optimized most. We are in alpha, they are defining gameplay mechanics first and foremost right now. It should be crazy, and they may remove a mechanic completely. Why would they optimize something you don't need to. They may remove it or change how it works.
     
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    1. It is a build game and I hope it will finally case to be Shipbuilder 2000. Let SM to become something better than just lego game.
    2. ?
    3. Agree

    I would like to see SM as Tekkit (technical modpack to Minecraft with nuclear reactors etc.) style game.
    ship builder 2000 lol
     

    Keptick

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    I have everything setup right, Java, SM, my drivers. OS. Right across the board, yet still with a GTX 970, overclocked i53570k, 8GB ram 64 bit Windows, decent PSU and this game still runs like crap when you have several ships on screen, I cannot imagine how those with 2gb of ram and a 32bit OS and Intel HD graphics can stand playing at 10fps.

    Only runs like most of my other single player games which have larger draw distances, textures, polygons etc when I am the only player on the dedicated server I play on. (single player is a bit laggy with constant server under load messages)

    So that is what my problem is with StarMade not the Game itself, what game there is, but the fact is it is terrbily optimised, and the optimisations that are made seem to work solo but not when as I said in an area with a few ships flying around and fighting, heck I just undock my ship and the game lags up awfully for a minute or two for no clearly logical explanation, crossing sectors is often like hitting a wall and more so when in combat.

    Just so much that really needs to be better optimised considering the ageof this 'alpha' and there are many issues I feel that will either take too much timeto fix or are impossibleto fix at all. e.g cube sectors need to go. If I can see a ship 10km then that ship needs to occupy the same space as me, no border crossing required that will screw things up.
    Java just has too many limitations for a game like this.

    I dunno, I just don't think Java is good for games no matter the skill level of the programmer and I do not think Schine is focused on the areas it needs to be. That's my 2cents any ways.
    What you're experiencing isn't the norm, especially not with your computer specs. For example, Crusade has a similar machine and can run the game no problem, even around very large ships (1km+ lenght). He even turned on supersampling (4k) and could still get 60+ fps looking at my 1.3km long ship.

    So you're either overly exagerating your issues, are looking at gigantic ships, things are colliding, one of your computer's components is bottlenecking the rest (motherboard maybe?), turned on shadows (don't), or all of the above.

    Now don't get me wrong, the game isn't close to perfect. Things like the fps drops from turret collisions still drive me crazy, but I know that trying to optimize them now would most likely be a waste of time. Compared to similar-ish games like space engineers, starmade is still VASTLY superior in terms of scale and performance.
     
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    You don't need to change the math behind it and you also have a list of what can be done and how - you have your knowledge on it. That saves a lot of time.
    90% of programming is debugging. Sometimes even just adding semicolons to lines.​
    ––––––––
    Personally, I think SM is wrong direction in quite a few important things.
    • favouring combat far too much and wasting 8/24 bits to HP - it is a build game!
    • not allowing character-sized password-inputs and not focusing role-play at all
    • focusing on the big scale, rather than the personal experience with a character
    It is the best game out there. But still a bit too far from what I want.

    I think Schema could take any time up to a year if the VoxelFarm-Engine's possibilities were implemented.


    Another piece of redundant software on my PC?
    "favouring combat far too much and wasting 8/24 bits to HP - it is a build game!"

    When I read this, I had to restrain myself from letting loose a torrent of swearing the likes of which Star Made has never seen. I'd be banned so hard there'd be a crater where my account used to be.


    So I'll just say this: Not everyone plays Star Made as a building game. A lot of us don't even like shipbuilding. Personally, I play it for the adventure aspect. I like traveling galaxies, while fighting and trading along the way. PvP is a huge aspect of the game for many and I don't know why this forun doesn't respect that. It's a sandbox ffs
     

    NeonSturm

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    "favouring combat far too much and wasting 8/24 bits to HP - it is a build game!"
    When I read this, I had to restrain myself from letting loose a torrent of swearing the likes of which Star Made has never seen. I'd be banned so hard there'd be a crater where my account used to be.

    So I'll just say this: Not everyone plays Star Made as a building game. A lot of us don't even like shipbuilding. Personally, I play it for the adventure aspect. I like traveling galaxies, while fighting and trading along the way. PvP is a huge aspect of the game for many and I don't know why this forun doesn't respect that. It's a sandbox ffs
    No need to worry.

    Most of the time, about 10% of your blocks are damaged at a time before some get destroyed and others are damaged.
    But 100% of blocks reserve space for HP-bits → 90% waste.

    You can reduce that from 8/24 to 4/24 and it still looks great (8 damage-states). Exact hp can be as easily stored per 2x2x2 blocks and it would still look great.
     
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