No "Space Friction" When Accellerating

[Yetimania]

So, we all know Starmade's "Space Friction" isn't realistic, but it's pretty much needed to avoid insanity-inducing difficulty when stopping. Further, it was pretty important considering the high thrust-weight-ratios spaceships could achieve. However, with the recent thrust nerf, ships now have fairly realistic TWR's (often under 0.5). Note that for scale, the new F-22 Raptor is first American jet fighter with >1 TWR, so I think we're okay with low numbers.

The problem is that the numbers are now so low that we can't fight space friction when moving. Ships that used to be able to hit server speed limits easily can no longer break 30km/h, even with 1/4 or more of the ship devoted to thrusters.

I think we'd all be okay with slow acceleration on capital ships (as a combat disadvantage primarily), but I think we're *not* okay with hour-long transit times. We want high top speeds, because otherwise it becomes a test of patience.

So my suggestion is simple: when any movement key is held down, space friction does not affect your spaceship. This means the space friction is no longer considered a fundamental property of the universe, but an artificial gradual slowdown created by your engines when they're in neutral. Server speed limits would remain in effect. This would allow for low TWR's, especially on capital ships, but would also prevent multi-hour treks to shops.

 

[Ithirahad]

How about no Space Friction unless you toggle it on with some special block? That way, people can cruise around while walking, and can fly at a set speed.

 

[Yetimania]

Well, in that case, I would say no space friction at all, and let the 'brake' key just handle that.

Actually, that would work just as well.

 

[therimmer96]

The issue of no friction is what if you crash? or your ship gets rammed? It will never stop, just endlessly continue and you will never get it back

 

[Wrathserker]

The issue of no friction is what if you crash? or your ship gets rammed? It will never stop, just endlessly continue and you will never get it back

But aint that how it actually is in space? just means u gotta be careful dawdling around in space (duh).
You still might catch up with it. in either a fast ship or when the ship hits a planet.

Real Problem is how to manage the 50+ asteroids / ships /etc put into motion in a safegame...

 

[Ithirahad]

But aint that how it actually is in space? just means u gotta be careful dawdling around in space (duh).
You still might catch up with it. in either a fast ship or when the ship hits a planet.

Real Problem is how to manage the 50+ asteroids / ships /etc put into motion in a safegame...

IIRC, once a ship/other body travels out of loaded sectors it stops. So it's not all that bad.

 

[Yetimania]

This change is no longer needed, see information here

EDIT: I was wrong. It turns out the change is still desperately needed, as the expected fix to nerfed thrusters was pretty minor.

 

[Planr]

The issue of no friction is what if you crash? or your ship gets rammed? It will never stop, just endlessly continue and you will never get it back

thats why he wants no friction when accelerating. as in, as long as he is in that ship and hitting the gas pedal, space isn't resisting, and only attempts to slow down his craft when he stops using thrusters

 

[Lecic]

Guys, the speeds are bugged. Read what Yetimania sent. It's a post by a dev on the matter.

 

[Ithirahad]

I did read it. That still doesn't fix everything. Ships still often get stuck at below-cap speeds, though not as much.

 

[FunnyBunny14]

Okay, so people want fast capital sjips with low acceleration. But the high speeds aren't very realistic. I mean, Some ships have more than 100.000 mass, and to move that through space, you would need a huge amount of thrust. So maybe the top speed could be bound by thrust per mass?
Example: lower than 1 thrust per mass would mean that the top speed would be lower than the server cap.

Note: this is just an example. This doesn't mean that I believe it has to be that, I just am trying to explain what I mean. Also, this is in an attempt to get some realism.

 

[Ithirahad]

Okay, so people want fast capital sjips with low acceleration. But the high speeds aren't very realistic. I mean, Some ships have more than 100.000 mass, and to move that through space, you would need a huge amount of thrust. So maybe the top speed could be bound by thrust per mass?
Example: lower than 1 thrust per mass would mean that the top speed would be lower than the server cap.

Note: this is just an example. This doesn't mean that I believe it has to be that, I just am trying to explain what I mean. Also, this is in an attempt to get some realism.

...In reality, a ship can move as fast as it wants, it will just take longer to accelerate and take more energy if it's big. However, in Starmade, energy is infinite (which is good!), so...

 

[karkinosz]

Okay, so people want fast capital sjips with low acceleration. But the high speeds aren't very realistic. I mean, Some ships have more than 100.000 mass, and to move that through space, you would need a huge amount of thrust. So maybe the top speed could be bound by thrust per mass?
Example: lower than 1 thrust per mass would mean that the top speed would be lower than the server cap.

Note: this is just an example. This doesn't mean that I believe it has to be that, I just am trying to explain what I mean. Also, this is in an attempt to get some realism.

Not sure how limiting the top speed of larger ships makes it more realistic. This thread advocates removing "space friction". If a ship has thrust in space it will accelerate proportional to the amount of thrust.
The only time this isn't true is when you approach the universal constant or 3 x10^8 ms^-1 since near the speed of light the relativistic mass of a moving object increases(not the real mass). Reality aside and on to game mechanics a high top speed for titan shouldn't harm combat all that much since acceleration is low thus it cannot dodge very well if at all.

How to stop ships from just drifting into space when they are empty? If the core is not overheated then the ships "main computer" or whatever simply stops the ship similarly to how space friction works so if you want to throw a ship into the abyss you have to be able to kill it first. Any other outstanding issues?

 

[Yetimania]

How to stop ships from just drifting into space when they are empty? If the core is not overheated then the ships "main computer" or whatever simply stops the ship similarly to how space friction works so if you want to throw a ship into the abyss you have to be able to kill it first. Any other outstanding issues?

My suggestion was that any entity that isn't currently pressing a movement key experiences friction and will slow down, and any entity that *is* pressing a movement key (ie, accelerating) doesn't have friction. This gives us the following results:

• Titans and smaller ships will have the same 'overland' speed (=server cap) [A minor exception is that over shorter distances, the time it takes to get up to speed and stop would play a significant role]
  
• High-thrust, Overdrive ships (only practical on smaller or highly specialized ships) will have double the overland speed.
• Titans will have a pitifully slow in-combat speed (limited by their acceleration)
• Fighters will move like lightning in-combat (limited by their acceleration)

How is this not exactly how we want the game to be? Titans are slower than fighters in battle, but don't require you to stare at the computer screen holding down 'w' for twenty minutes just to get to the enemy's base. Fighters can zip about in battle and avoid attacks, but capital ships will be near-stationary and vulnerable to attacks from the sides and rear.

 

[therimmer96]

My suggestion was that any entity that isn't currently pressing a movement key experiences friction and will slow down, and any entity that *is* pressing a movement key (ie, accelerating) doesn't have friction. This gives us the following results:

• Titans and smaller ships will have the same 'overland' speed (=server cap) [A minor exception is that over shorter distances, the time it takes to get up to speed and stop would play a significant role]
  
• High-thrust, Overdrive ships (only practical on smaller or highly specialized ships) will have double the overland speed.
• Titans will have a pitifully slow in-combat speed (limited by their acceleration)
• Fighters will move like lightning in-combat (limited by their acceleration)

How is this not exactly how we want the game to be? Titans are slower than fighters in battle, but don't require you to stare at the computer screen holding down 'w' for twenty minutes just to get to the enemy's base. Fighters can zip about in battle and avoid attacks, but capital ships will be near-stationary and vulnerable to attacks from the sides and rear.

So much yes.

 

[karkinosz]

My suggestion was that any entity that isn't currently pressing a movement key experiences friction and will slow down, and any entity that *is* pressing a movement key (ie, accelerating) doesn't have friction. This gives us the following results:

(Before I say anything I am agreeing with you.)
Pretty much what I was advocating for was NO friction in space unless in an non-piloted ship. Mostly for the sake of realism. This does mean that both fighters and titans have the same top speed but different acceleration values depending on the build. Since we expect fighters to have a higher acceleration and thus be more nimble and titans to be less so a fighter will be able to easily turn and change velocity while a titan would take more time to do the same.

The only functional difference between our methods is that we can drift about (travelling without having to press w constantly would be real nice). and perform strafing motions without having to hold on to thrust keys with my implementation.

Of course both our methods actually rely on capitals actually having lower thrust than fighters, this is not always the case, although I haven't flown a post thrust change capital so I can't be sure.

TLDR:
I agree with no space drag.
I would prefer no space drag all the time so starmade feels less arcade-y.
Your method requires we hold on to W for long periods as we do now.
We'd have to have thrust be balanced so smaller ships have more thrust normally.

Off-topic:
I didn't mention this but I hate overdrive ships with a passion >.> speed limits exist to we aren't constantly loading more sectors, I'd hope we get a functioning FTL system so overdrive is less needed. (If you are loading too many sectors too fast it can put a strain on servers, we had issues with it on nass from what I've heard.)

 

[Yetimania]

(Before I say anything I am agreeing with you.)
Pretty much what I was advocating for was NO friction in space unless in an non-piloted ship. Mostly for the sake of realism. This does mean that both fighters and titans have the same top speed but different acceleration values depending on the build. Since we expect fighters to have a higher acceleration and thus be more nimble and titans to be less so a fighter will be able to easily turn and change velocity while a titan would take more time to do the same.

The only functional difference between our methods is that we can drift about (travelling without having to press w constantly would be real nice). and perform strafing motions without having to hold on to thrust keys with my implementation.

Of course both our methods actually rely on capitals actually having lower thrust than fighters, this is not always the case, although I haven't flown a post thrust change capital so I can't be sure.

TLDR:
I agree with no space drag.
I would prefer no space drag all the time so starmade feels less arcade-y.
Your method requires we hold on to W for long periods as we do now.
We'd have to have thrust be balanced so smaller ships have more thrust normally.

Off-topic:
I didn't mention this but I hate overdrive ships with a passion >.> speed limits exist to we aren't constantly loading more sectors, I'd hope we get a functioning FTL system so overdrive is less needed. (If you are loading too many sectors too fast it can put a strain on servers, we had issues with it on nass from what I've heard.)

Hmm. Yeah, that actually sounds pretty good. There'd need to be a few changes around the edges to allow for completely frictionless movement without being annoying. For example, if you're in a ship and sign out, you would have to appear back where that ship was when you sign in. Otherwise, you sign out, someone slightly jostles your ship, you sign in a week later and your spaceship is on the other side of the galaxy. We might also have to fudge out collision bumping for low-speed collisions (an asteroid only gets knocked around if you hit it fast and hard, not a little bump) or something to that effect.

As for overdrive, I love them, but I only operate from a user-side. I don't run a server. If it's causing problems server-side (which I'd totally believe) then I'd be okay with them leaving or being nerfed. (They did get nerfed to a +100% cap as it is).

 

[_TheRealAmeRicA]

Hmm. Yeah, that actually sounds pretty good. There'd need to be a few changes around the edges to allow for completely frictionless movement without being annoying. For example, if you're in a ship and sign out, you would have to appear back where that ship was when you sign in. Otherwise, you sign out, someone slightly jostles your ship, you sign in a week later and your spaceship is on the other side of the galaxy. We might also have to fudge out collision bumping for low-speed collisions (an asteroid only gets knocked around if you hit it fast and hard, not a little bump) or something to that effect.

As for overdrive, I love them, but I only operate from a user-side. I don't run a server. If it's causing problems server-side (which I'd totally believe) then I'd be okay with them leaving or being nerfed. (They did get nerfed to a +100% cap as it is).

High speeds with overdrive only make lag problems with smaller sectors, since leaving a sector, that sector remains loaded for 20 seconds. If you were to travel a kilometer a second for example, you'd be switching sectors every 2 seconds, and so as many as 10 sectors could be loaded at once, Yikes! With larger sectors however, this poses little trouble. The only issue is if you were to crash into something, which the lag from that is mainly dictated by the size of the ship. A 2 mil ship smashing into an asteroid is kinda going to crash a server whether it's going 90% the speed of light or not ^^. It'd be nice if the defensive effects module cap was adjustable in the server.cfg, would you agree?

 

[Yetimania]

It'd be nice if the defensive effects module cap was adjustable in the server.cfg, would you agree?

Yup, that sounds like a good idea. You can probably edit it somewhere in the .xml that determines things like thrust and shields and whatnot

 

[karkinosz]

How to stop ships from just drifting into space when they are empty? If the core is not overheated then the ships "main computer" or whatever simply stops the ship similarly to how space friction works so if you want to throw a ship into the abyss you have to be able to kill it first. Any other outstanding issues?

For example, if you're in a ship and sign out, you would have to appear back where that ship was when you sign in. Otherwise, you sign out, someone slightly jostles your ship, you sign in a week later and your spaceship is on the other side of the galaxy.

That's kind of what that point is for. If no one is in the ship it will be affected by friction. You can do the same to asteroids if that's fine.
Also objects lose momentum when the sector is unloaded, so a ship can only drift so far, keep that in mind.