Greifing or Legitimate Strategy?

[Zaphord]

None of this changes the fact that as of right now torpedoes are griefing.

• not because they bypass shields.
• not because they can be used from a cloaked ship
• not because sticking 50 of them floating in space 12 meters in front of your ship and then cloaking takes neither skill no creativity

they are griefing right now because they are not counterable while you are offline/to some degree while you are online.

Oh torpedoes just dodge them ok thats fine till its your station they are shooting at.... you are offline and your turrets can't shoot them and you can't move what do you do. Either you shoot at neutrals like an ass or you get abused neither of those is acceptable. I don't agree with Edymnion that we need some ships win by block count and time system, but as it stands right now properly designed torpedoes and ships have a 0% counterplay element to them which is not acceptable in any game which wants to have thriving pvp.

For instance even in eve where people are allowed to lie steal cheat kill you without mercy take advantage of you in almost every way possible, you still aren't capable of going up to their station / pos while they are offline and destoying it or actually even damageing any parts of it while they are offline.

You do know your faction homebase is invulnerable even if you're offline, right? Just avoid docking your ships at outposts and you won't have any problems.

This isn't a valid excuse to file torpedo use under greifing. Granted, they can be used for greifing, but as we've discussed in previous posts, greifing is more based on intent than the actual tactic or system used.

People who complain about "no possible counter" haven't thought very hard about how to counter a tactic. Tactical lazynes and defensive complacency is not our problem, it's our advantage, and in a sandbox game with PvP there should be no problem you shouldn't be able to counter with a little creativity and ingenuity.

On my server, once I'm ready to go public, you will be advised that it's a pvp/RP server, so expect to get ganked if you don't pay attention. Complain about getting ganked, provided the ganking wasn't a spawn kill or a whole fleet hitting your starter ship for lulz, and you'll be politely told to find a pve/build server to play on. Our server is just not suited for your play style, so it's in your interest to find one more accomdating to your tastes.

 

[Lecic]

You do know your faction homebase is invulnerable even if you're offline, right? Just avoid docking your ships at outposts and you won't have any problems.

And what about the outposts themselves, huh? My outposts aren't invulnerable and there is no way to prevent them from getting wrecked by warhead torpedoes.

People who complain about "no possible counter" haven't thought very hard about how to counter a tactic.

Alright, yes, you're right! There IS a counter to people using warhead torpedoes on your station while you're offline- having constantly firing pulses that prevent warheads from hitting your station. But that isn't much fun, is it? Having to rig up your station with tens of thousands of constantly firing weapons, lagging the server and your client, and completely at the mercy of lag on whether or not the logic clock keeping it active will break or not.

 

[Panpiper]

What if you had pulse weapon 'turrets' set to target 'any', as in neutrals as well? (The short range would prevent most people from ever being inconvenienced.) Sadly of course, that is not possible now, but it might be at least a stop gap way to program a counter to torpedoes, if getting AIs to recognize torpedoes otherwise is difficult for the developers. That or have a targetable setting for 'factionless' maybe? (It would also help if explosive modules worked to expand the radius of pulse weapons.)

I just woke up, so please excuse me if my brain farted and I overlooked something obvious.

 

[Lecic]

What if you had pulse weapon 'turrets' set to target 'any', as in neutrals as well? (The short range would prevent most people from ever being inconvenienced.) Sadly of course, that is not possible now, but it might be at least a stop gap way to program a counter to torpedoes, if getting AIs to recognize torpedoes otherwise is difficult for the developers. That or have a targetable setting for 'factionless' maybe? (It would also help if explosive modules worked to expand the radius of pulse weapons.)

I just woke up, so please excuse me if my brain farted and I overlooked something obvious.

Setting a turret to "any" makes it target any random nearby hostile. It would still require you to be hostile to neutral, which would mean the normal base defense turrets would shoot up anyone who wasn't in a faction or was in a neutral faction to you.

 

[lilheartless]

And what about the outposts themselves, huh? My outposts aren't invulnerable and there is no way to prevent them from getting wrecked by warhead torpedoes.



Alright, yes, you're right! There IS a counter to people using warhead torpedoes on your station while you're offline- having constantly firing pulses that prevent warheads from hitting your station. But that isn't much fun, is it? Having to rig up your station with tens of thousands of constantly firing weapons, lagging the server and your client, and completely at the mercy of lag on whether or not the logic clock keeping it active will break or not.

again this is not a counter to a strategy this is a bandage to a bullet wound.

I agree with you but lets say you have a "merchant" faction even in a pvp environment you still need people to build supplies for you and trade with don't you... or are you just at war constantly with 30 other factions with no point since they only stash all their shit in their homebase and troll you for the lolz?

If you have a station that has pulses shooting off in every concealable direction you have eliminated the ability to use the shop block no one can come close enough to your station to buy from you and if they try they get killed or damage by your pulse weapons possibly starting new conflict because you had to use a "broken" counter defense to "counter" a broken offensive tool.

You have now officially disallowed the use of one part of the game because you favor another.

In any real game there needs to be balance torpedoes right now are not balanced

Don't take this the wrong way i'm not saying warheads are to strong or anti fun or griefing in and of themselves honestly i think warheads are both too cheap to make and too weak to actually use except in an offshoot case where they are used for griefing using warheads ins't griefing using self propelled torpedoes against un attended stations is griefing its one use of them that makes them at least right now a griefing tool.

there are alot of solutions to this problem ships with warheads could give off their own "signature" so to speak making them target-able by the ai. This would make it so that you actually have to armor your torpedoes like well real torpedoes.

another possible solution would be to add a personal flag to any ships launched from a piloted ship aka if you launch a torpedo from _someguysship_ that torpedo is neutral but flagged as _someguysship_'s ship so if it then impacts your station and does damage with a warhead _someguysship_ can be added to your personal enemies list and your turrets will start killing him without you needing to target every neutral in space in order to protect yourself.

Once there is an actual way to defend from warheads i think their damage should be buffed slightly and their cost increased to that of a tier 2 block rather than a basic factory block and i think they'd be set, they would no longer be 100% uncounterable in a specific instance and could therefore be buffed and looked upon as a positive addition to the game instead of one that has the potential to be used to grief other players.

I'm gunna add right now that if a solution along the same train of thought as one of the two i outlined doesn't sit well with you, you need to accept the fact that you actually want warheads to be a weapon that can be used to grief someone and just come out and say that instead. Griefing whether major or minor is a successful strategy used in alot of games but it is what it is.

I hate to use eve as another reference but in eve you can literally lie to people get them to accept you into their corporation sweet talk your way into a position of authority and then rob them of everything they own, that too i would consider griefing but its a perfectly legal strategy, that also has a counter too it, don't trust people, period.

I'm not sure i want such a sum zero environment here in starmade but thats just me.
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You do know your faction homebase is invulnerable even if you're offline, right? Just avoid docking your ships at outposts and you won't have any problems.

This isn't a valid excuse to file torpedo use under greifing. Granted, they can be used for greifing, but as we've discussed in previous posts, greifing is more based on intent than the actual tactic or system used.

People who complain about "no possible counter" haven't thought very hard about how to counter a tactic. Tactical lazynes and defensive complacency is not our problem, it's our advantage, and in a sandbox game with PvP there should be no problem you shouldn't be able to counter with a little creativity and ingenuity.

On my server, once I'm ready to go public, you will be advised that it's a pvp/RP server, so expect to get ganked if you don't pay attention. Complain about getting ganked, provided the ganking wasn't a spawn kill or a whole fleet hitting your starter ship for lulz, and you'll be politely told to find a pve/build server to play on. Our server is just not suited for your play style, so it's in your interest to find one more accomdating to your tastes.

My other post got a little long so i'm going to directly reply to your post as well.

It actually is a valid excuse to file torpedo use under a griefing tool, if you have a baseball bat and its mostly used for playing sports but then you bash someone head in with it and claim it wasn't assault with a deadly weapon because its a sporting good you'd be laughed at just before you got life in prison.

There is no possible counter that doesn't disallow something else without extreme measures being taken it takes nothing to build a torpedo maybe a few minutes to build it and then fly it to where it needs to go but in order to completely surround your station in a fugly as hell armor sphere or install timed pulses all over your station costs a huge amount of resources that isn't balanced.

also right now the only possible defenses disallow the use of shop blocks by other players as in order to get close enough to your shop block they would need to be within range of either your pulses or you would have to put your shop block right near the edge of your station setting yourself up to possibly lose hundreds of millions in credits just because someone else could possibly use torpedoes against you, this too is not balanced.

Idk bout you but i've been on some servers that have factions that have upwards of 20 people in them now if each person only has 2 ships thats 40 ships and thats too many to dock at a single station without it being an ugly blob of floating docking areas which is again do able but completely removes the ability to have something effective, efficient, and pretty which kinda takes a large amount of fun out of the game imo, if I literally didn't have the option to build good looking ships and stations because i had to use some stupid resource intensive defense to a block that someone 10 minutes on the server can make I just don't wanna play. I'm all for pvp and blowing other peoples stuff up and dying in a fight fair or unfair. What i'm not ok with is someone being able to take advantage of the fact that i'm not online 24/7 to destroy my stuff while i'm not there.

This isn't rocket science its common sense.

 

[Zaphord]

And what about the outposts themselves, huh? My outposts aren't invulnerable and there is no way to prevent them from getting wrecked by warhead torpedoes.

Seems like a lot of people miss the point of a lot of the recent updates and some of the ones coming down the pipe, and that point is TEAMWORK.

You can't realistically expect to be able to manage a homebase and a half dozen outposts with a 1 man faction, yet I see this all over the place. There could be 2 or 3 factions with a decent player base and 20 factions with 1 player. Who's gonna get ganked? Not the 10 man faction, that's for sure.

Alright, yes, you're right! There IS a counter to people using warhead torpedoes on your station while you're offline- having constantly firing pulses that prevent warheads from hitting your station. But that isn't much fun, is it? Having to rig up your station with tens of thousands of constantly firing weapons, lagging the server and your client, and completely at the mercy of lag on whether or not the logic clock keeping it active will break or not.

That's just stupid. Lagging the server will get your stuff deleted. Want to counter a sneaky tactic? Use a sneaky tactic of your own.

If it was tactical outpost that civies had no business being at, I'd set up a minefield, a sector in each direction around the station to catch cloakers an torpedoes. Only way in or out is via a heavily defended factioned warp gate. If things work out right, they'll see the mines and bugger off. More likely, I'll have at least one faction member watching over it so I WON'T have to set up a huge minefield. If the enemy manages to get past my defenses or catch that outpost while none of my faction underlings are online to guard it then the attacker deserves the spoils of war. At that point I can really only msg the guy "gg" and start planing my counter attack.

Looking at all this has made me realize that there needs to be an option to allow pvp on servers, that way if you want to do a build server and not have to worry so much about greifers, you can set the server to pve only. Players won't be able to damage anything other than pirates and other AI ships.

For the people who just want to build, the just build, but do it where you're not gonna get shot.

If you want to fight, then RP some conflicts with a worthy opponent, don't shoot at someone you know is gonna qq about it.

And if you still want to spawn kill or gate camp the newbs, then expect the banhammer to come down hard on you. That's assuming the admins aren't too lax in their diciplinary measures.

 

[lilheartless]

Seems like a lot of people miss the point of a lot of the recent updates and some of the ones coming down the pipe, and that point is TEAMWORK.

You can't realistically expect to be able to manage a homebase and a half dozen outposts with a 1 man faction, yet I see this all over the place. There could be 2 or 3 factions with a decent player base and 20 factions with 1 player. Who's gonna get ganked? Not the 10 man faction, that's for sure.

Unless this is sarcasm you have this shit ass backwards as possible. Me my one man faction i'ma keep all my shit at my INVINCIBLE homebase where you cannot do anything to me i'll put a warp gate dead center where i can dock my cloaky ship and leave at my leisure with no interruption so you can't counter my coming or going i'll set up a cheap receiving warp gate on some unfactioned derelict station so it doesn't show up as anything on the map and use that to get out of my base.

Then i'll use torpedo warheads to kill and harass any of the larger factions no homebase protected ships and stations you deserve it right all you can do is say gg to me? thats what you said right i'm straight up better and smarter than you and you got outplayed, then i'll go back to my invincible station and watch day after day as you lose all your player base because surprise by your own accord i'm not greifing i'm just playing smarter and the people i harass destroy kill and make quit deserve it cause according to you i'm playing "smarter".

Even if every person on the server hated me and joined together what are they going to do to me 1/20 times i try to come back and they get lucky and get my cloaker that cost me like 2mil to build and field they can't touch me my resources are invulnerable and they'd be wasting their time trying to stop me rather than having fun at the game.

as an admin you'd have no choice but to let me be while your player base slowly but surely dwindled to nothingness, either that or admit that i was right all along, but you could save yourself the trouble and just do that now.

What i'm saying is not that hard to understand.... i mean really you can see how this edge case is completely abuseable and prevents a large majority of people from actually enjoying themselves right? why can you not understand this.



On a side not most people like to play with other people who play at the same time as them, not sure who goes out of their way to join a faction that has 90% of its members playing during evening us hours just so they can be the faction guard dog for a bunch of people they never talk to.

 

[Lecic]

You can't realistically expect to be able to manage a homebase and a half dozen outposts with a 1 man faction, yet I see this all over the place. There could be 2 or 3 factions with a decent player base and 20 factions with 1 player. Who's gonna get ganked? Not the 10 man faction, that's for sure.

Ah, I see. Your solution is "have someone online at literally all your bases." Yeah, that's stupid and unreasonable. I should be able to count on my AI defenses to handle themselves against a hostile who isn't counted as hostile due to the game not counting those warhead torpedoes as an act of aggression. Players have real lives, you know. You can't expect to always have someone online.

If it was tactical outpost that civies had no business being at,

And what if it's a trading outpost?

I'd set up a minefield

Minefields are worthless. You can avoid them with ease, and if it's impossible to actually fly around the mines, you can always get past them with those unfactioned warhead torpedoes that lead to this whole issue in the first place.

 

[Zaphord]

Ah, I see. Your solution is "have someone online at literally all your bases." Yeah, that's stupid and unreasonable. I should be able to count on my AI defenses to handle themselves against a hostile who isn't counted as hostile due to the game not counting those warhead torpedoes as an act of aggression. Players have real lives, you know. You can't expect to always have someone online.

And what if it's a trading outpost?

Minefields are worthless. You can avoid them with ease, and if it's impossible to actually fly around the mines, you can always get past them with those unfactioned warhead torpedoes that lead to this whole issue in the first place.

No, the solution is strength in numbers, not 24 hour vigilance. If you know a faction is 1 man, you know he's less likely to be online all the time. A faction with more members is more likely have someone online at any given time, so is that base being manned right now? Who knows?

As for the trading outpost, if there's no one there then business is pretty bad for you. I'm sure that any player docked to that station, faction or not, is not going to take kindly to having his ship fired upon.

Still, torps do need a way to be recognized as hostile, so your turrets can shoot at them and we can stop hearing this bs and move on to the next grevance.

And minefields? Sarcasm dude, without some real improvements to stealth, AI and warheads, mines will always useless. If / when they do get to doing that, you'll have something new to qq about.

 

[Lecic]

No, the solution is strength in numbers, not 24 hour vigilance. If you know a faction is 1 man, you know he's less likely to be online all the time. A faction with more members is more likely have someone online at any given time, so is that base being manned right now? Who knows?

>press tab
>"hmm, looks like nobody from that 10 man faction is online right now!"
>proceed to wreck all of their outposts

 

[lilheartless]

>press tab
>"hmm, looks like nobody from that 10 man faction is online right now!"
>proceed to wreck all of their outposts

Who cares if they are online if they have more than one claimed territory it won't mean much roll up to their station outside of weapons range launch torpedoes wait till they explode jump away station is damaged and if you know where you are going no one has time to get to a station from anywhere not in the immediate area to stop you.

Time it takes to destroy peoples stuff < time it takes to get to your stuff to protect it.

 

[Zaphord]

>press tab
>"hmm, looks like nobody from that 10 man faction is online right now!"
>proceed to wreck all of their outposts

You still can't deny the numbers are still in the favor of the larger faction, and the situation you're describing still has less of a chance of happening with more members than it does in a 1 man faction.

Getting to the root of the issue here; yes torpedoes can be exploited, pretty badly in fact. If the solution doesn't present itself with anything the average player can come up with in game that isn't going to lag the server to hell and isn't completely retarded, the it's up to the devs to implement a solution.

Personally, I have no problems with neutral torps being detectable and flagged as hostile by turrets. I personally make sure that whoever I'm shooting those things at knows damn well who's attacking them. I don't stealth my torps because I've yet to even attempt working with cloakers, nor would I be interested in doing so. But that's just me, and adding any counter measures to this tactic isn't going to affect how I use torps in the slightest. It just keeps people who can't play fair from abusing a viable tactic that has an exploitable loophole to act like assholes for the sake of acting like assholes.

What I really don't get is why people freak the hell out over a warhead that is quite clearly broken right now? Either fix and balance it or use the block ID for something that's actually useful.

 

[MacThule]

None of this changes the fact that as of right now torpedoes are griefing.

• not because they bypass shields.
• not because they can be used from a cloaked ship
• not because sticking 50 of them floating in space 12 meters in front of your ship and then cloaking takes neither skill no creativity

they are griefing right now because they are not counterable while you are offline/to some degree while you are online.

Oh torpedoes just dodge them ok thats fine till its your station they are shooting at.... you are offline and your turrets can't shoot them and you can't move what do you do. Either you shoot at neutrals like an ass or you get abused neither of those is acceptable. I don't agree with Edymnion that we need some ships win by block count and time system, but as it stands right now properly designed torpedoes and ships have a 0% counterplay element to them which is not acceptable in any game which wants to have thriving pvp.

For instance even in eve where people are allowed to lie steal cheat kill you without mercy take advantage of you in almost every way possible, you still aren't capable of going up to their station / pos while they are offline and destoying it or actually even damageing any parts of it while they are offline.

You can totally destroy Eve POSs when their owners are offline. Not without a fight, but let's not distort the case. Also, a warhead CANNOT be griefing because nouns can't be verbs (not in the way you're doing it, gerunds are a totally different animal).

That said, your problem then isn't even with warheads themselves but the lack of a passive counter. Maybe you should focus there instead of hating on warheads. Turrets have settings for ships, missiles, astronauts, and all. Since intercepting incoming munitions falls under Point Defense, maybe the missile setting should be expanded into overall Point Defense and made to fire on any non-allied warheads in range as well as missiles. Would that not settle your issue?

 

[Lecic]

Getting to the root of the issue here; yes torpedoes can be exploited, pretty badly in fact. If the solution doesn't present itself with anything the average player can come up with in game that isn't going to lag the server to hell and isn't completely retarded, the it's up to the devs to implement a solution.

Yes, that's what I'm arguing right now- until there is a decent counter to warhead torpedoes, they are griefing, because there's no way for AI to deal with them.

For example- cloakers cannot be used with normal weapons to grief a station, because there are multiple counters in place- a timer before they can recloak after firing weapons means that the turrets can target them, and jump inhibitors prevent them from jumping right after firing.

 

[MacThule]

Unless this is sarcasm you have this shit ass backwards as possible. Me my one man faction i'ma keep all my shit at my INVINCIBLE homebase where you cannot do anything to me i'll put a warp gate dead center where i can dock my cloaky ship and leave at my leisure with no interruption so you can't counter my coming or going i'll set up a cheap receiving warp gate on some unfactioned derelict station so it doesn't show up as anything on the map and use that to get out of my base.

Then i'll use torpedo warheads to kill and harass any of the larger factions no homebase protected ships and stations you deserve it right all you can do is say gg to me? thats what you said right i'm straight up better and smarter than you and you got outplayed, then i'll go back to my invincible station and watch day after day as you lose all your player base because surprise by your own accord i'm not greifing i'm just playing smarter and the people i harass destroy kill and make quit deserve it cause according to you i'm playing "smarter".

Even if every person on the server hated me and joined together what are they going to do to me 1/20 times i try to come back and they get lucky and get my cloaker that cost me like 2mil to build and field they can't touch me my resources are invulnerable and they'd be wasting their time trying to stop me rather than having fun at the game.

as an admin you'd have no choice but to let me be while your player base slowly but surely dwindled to nothingness, either that or admit that i was right all along, but you could save yourself the trouble and just do that now.

What i'm saying is not that hard to understand.... i mean really you can see how this edge case is completely abuseable and prevents a large majority of people from actually enjoying themselves right? why can you not understand this.



On a side not most people like to play with other people who play at the same time as them, not sure who goes out of their way to join a faction that has 90% of its members playing during evening us hours just so they can be the faction guard dog for a bunch of people they never talk to.

I can't agree completely. Yes - hiding out in an invincible home base 24/7 is not only cowardly but boring. As far as cloak ships... man, after the first 2-3 times someone cloak-jacked I *NEVER* fly around in a ship without a scanner now and I use it regularly as I'm going about my business unless I'm cloaked myself. And as a result I've the sheer pleasure several times of unexpectedly de-cloaking someone's prowler, poking a big hole in it real fast, then laughing my ass off as it limps off in a panic. Golden moments. Use those scanners - cloak ships are light and easy to smash, and once you de-cloak it, even if it quickly re-cloaks your Mb turrets will still be able to score at least one successful hit on it.

 

[Zaphord]

Unless this is sarcasm you have this shit ass backwards as possible. Me my one man faction i'ma keep all my shit at my INVINCIBLE homebase where you cannot do anything to me i'll put a warp gate dead center where i can dock my cloaky ship and leave at my leisure with no interruption so you can't counter my coming or going i'll set up a cheap receiving warp gate on some unfactioned derelict station so it doesn't show up as anything on the map and use that to get out of my base.

Then i'll use torpedo warheads to kill and harass any of the larger factions no homebase protected ships and stations you deserve it right all you can do is say gg to me? thats what you said right i'm straight up better and smarter than you and you got outplayed, then i'll go back to my invincible station and watch day after day as you lose all your player base because surprise by your own accord i'm not greifing i'm just playing smarter and the people i harass destroy kill and make quit deserve it cause according to you i'm playing "smarter".

Even if every person on the server hated me and joined together what are they going to do to me 1/20 times i try to come back and they get lucky and get my cloaker that cost me like 2mil to build and field they can't touch me my resources are invulnerable and they'd be wasting their time trying to stop me rather than having fun at the game.

as an admin you'd have no choice but to let me be while your player base slowly but surely dwindled to nothingness, either that or admit that i was right all along, but you could save yourself the trouble and just do that now.

What i'm saying is not that hard to understand.... i mean really you can see how this edge case is completely abuseable and prevents a large majority of people from actually enjoying themselves right? why can you not understand this.



On a side not most people like to play with other people who play at the same time as them, not sure who goes out of their way to join a faction that has 90% of its members playing during evening us hours just so they can be the faction guard dog for a bunch of people they never talk to.

Depends on how you use the torps, if you stick around and fight then we don't have a problem. At least the base your attacking can fight back, and if you win, then gg, here's your salvage. If you run like a little bitch and repeat the same attack until there's nothing left to salvage, then that's griefing.

Oh, and if that many people were to get together to take you down, I'd blacklist you before people started leaving the server and give away all your shit as a means to apologize for not having banned your ass sooner. Scary how the people who complain the most about griefing are the ones who have the best ideas on how to cause grief. Why is that?

 

[Lecic]

Scary how the people who complain the most about griefing are the ones who have the best ideas on how to cause grief. Why is that?

Are you seriously trying to imply that people who are trying to STOP griefing are the ones who grief?

 

[Zaphord]

Yes, that's what I'm arguing right now- until there is a decent counter to warhead torpedoes, they are griefing, because there's no way for AI to deal with them.

For example- cloakers cannot be used with normal weapons to grief a station, because there are multiple counters in place- a timer before they can recloak after firing weapons means that the turrets can target them, and jump inhibitors prevent them from jumping right after firing.

Well, how about if we tweak warheads so that they have to be activated, then have a 10 second countdown before they explode? They'd still blow up on impact or if shot after activation, but now they blow up on their on after the countdown expires. This solves 2 problems as far as I can see; first it keeps people from using fire and forget from 3 sectors away, since the torp will likely blow up before it gets 750m away, and I'm sure that in order to hit from that range they'd have to be within enemy turret range, maybe missile/beam or beam/beam. Second, if you miss then you don't have a rogue torpedo flying through the galaxy at top speed going who knows where.

You'd need a lot more skill use torps, not only would you have to aim a dumbfire weapon from a distance, but you'd also have to range the weapon properly so it doesn't go off prematurely.

As for cloakers, I could care less if having any warheads made it impossible to cloak at all. Don't use cloak, doubt I ever will, but if it's that much of an issue, then up the mass of the warheads. Anything that has WMD potential shouldn't be light enough to be easily cloaked.
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Are you seriously trying to imply that people who are trying to STOP griefing are the ones who grief?

Quite possible that paranoia is the problem, but I sure that announcing possible greifing tactics on the forums is just giving greifers ideas.

 

[lilheartless]

You can totally destroy Eve POSs when their owners are offline. Not without a fight, but let's not distort the case. Also, a warhead CANNOT be griefing because nouns can't be verbs (not in the way you're doing it, gerunds are a totally different animal).

That said, your problem then isn't even with warheads themselves but the lack of a passive counter. Maybe you should focus there instead of hating on warheads. Turrets have settings for ships, missiles, astronauts, and all. Since intercepting incoming munitions falls under Point Defense, maybe the missile setting should be expanded into overall Point Defense and made to fire on any non-allied warheads in range as well as missiles. Would that not settle your issue?

No you can't you have to attack it take its shields down to 50% wait 12 hours and then you can actually attack and destroy it meanwhile you can have notifications set up so that you know the instant your base is attacked the first time and mount a defense. You are allowed time to react and mount a defense to account for the fact that people don't live in the game.

you are correct in that my problem isn't with warheads in fact i think warheads are weak right now my problem is that their is a one off situation / system in place right now that allows them to be exploitable with 0 counter play i've actually listed suggestions further back that had nothing to do with nerfing or removing warheads themselves.

as far as the me being a griefer myself i've never griefed anyone nor have i actually been griefed by anyone. I am however rather fond of critical thinking and the fact is when i look at something i can see all the ways it can be used including the abuse cases and i'm advocating against them before they become a problem so that i can hopefully inform enough people / stir up enough knowledge that the problem can be addressed before it becomes a real issue.

Zaphord If warheads had an activation time wouldn't actually solve the problem of having no counterplay because if they are in a non factioned ship and you don't want to kill every neutral that comes by you still can't shoot at them.

The whole point of that scare post was indeed to show how abusable the system is if you were to ban me for doing what i was doing then you infact just admitted that using warheads like i was advocating is griefing which contradicts your talk about using warheads to destroy stuff was about being more skilled and is in fact just the person using them being an ass, which was the point i was trying to get across in the first place.

MacThule In this case I was specifically talking about using a cloaker ship to bypass station defenses which you can't have an active scanner on yes while you were on and actively scanning I wouldn't be able to do much to you, but what about the 12, 16,20 hours a day you aren't on and i spend 5 hours launching warheads at your station from my cloaked ship ruining literally days of work and resource harvesting for no other purpose than being an ass?

 

[Zaphord]

You missed the other two parts,lilheartless, if warheads were targetable, had the 10 second self-destruct timer, and had to be activated (meaning you'd have to link them to some logic to start the countdown or activate them manually), then a lot of the problems you described would go away for the following reasons;

1. Being able to target them makes it so PD can take them out, even if you armor the torps they could still be taken out with one hit to the exposed warhead from a 1 damage cannon/cannon turret. Adding shields to prevent this would prevent the insta-kill on the warhead, but would make the torpedo much larger, needing more push modules, energy, shield generator, and shield capacitors. Too big to fire from a small torpedo bomber, much less one that can cloak.
2. The countdown timer guarantees you'd have to fire from at least 750m, assuming the server max speed hasn't changed and the push modules are strong enough to push it to max speed before the warhead self detonates. This puts the bomber well within the firing range of the longer range weapons available, so a beam/beam or missile/beam turret could peg your bomber before you even get a torp launched.
3. Having to arm the warheads before they can explode would prevent people from deploying stupid numbers of them in open space and firing them all at once. It would at least slow the process down enough that you might get a few shots off before station defenses kick in and start shooting back, instead of a massive 20 torp volley all at once.

I keep coming up with ways that these could be countered, but I keep getting the same tired rebuttals I heard back at the beginning of this thread. I feel like I'm trying to convince my 2 year old son to eat his veggies, there's a lot of screaming and not much gets done. I'm not saying anyone who disagrees with this is wrong, but maybe we should be trying to fix the problem instead of wasting energy fighting about it.