Fix missiles so they are actually useful.

[DivineEvil]

Indeed, Missiles are fine now. Long time ago I've been curious why they were having double DPS to Power Drain ratio compared to all other weapons. It is fixed now. If you're frustrated over your free-win "missile boat" toys not working anymore - too bad. Having a single weapon with the best damage per volley, highest range, largest AoE and least aiming requirements (you can basically float in place with free-look and get locks on anything around) were making missiles far superior to any other weapons, and that's not the way to make a good balance.

I'm still in hopes to see some DPS adjustments for weapons with shorter range or accuracy. I can understand if Schine sees it more comfortable to leave these values for server owners to adjust, but still Beams and Missile-slaved weapons should have at least noticeably higher damage to compensate for less accuracy or shorter range, and long-range weapons should have less. I think it will be safer, than tweaking power drain multipliers, which can actually cause a lot of pain for players to adjust to changed requirements.

And I still want for Pulse to actually be used, as a short-range slow-projectile weapon with AoE, that would obtain secondary effects depending on a slave it uses. In it's current form I don't see myself ever trying to use it.

Finally, concerning different types of Missiles, I'm left to wonder how will they work after the planned Thrust changes. I don't see it dramatically necessary to tweak anything prior to that, as it is unlikely that ship's mobility will work the same way; dumb-fire and slow-velocity missiles might get better than they're used to be.

 

[Winterhome]

I'm left to wonder how will they work after the planned Thrust changes.

I remember on the old bug tracker, there was a "feature" listed in the to-do list to give missiles mass and newtonian physics, but I don't know if that's still planned.

 

[aceface]

Planr I've actually noticed something when messing with missiles. If you take down the armour points of a ship missile holes tend to be a lot bigger. But yeah, missiles are a bit weak right now, in my opinion they still server as a good alpha weapon though.

 

[Valiant70]

If your missiles aren't hitting their targets often enough, ask your server administrator to consider lowering PD accuracy a little. I think there's a separate config option for it.

 

[psteiner]

Personally, I think that one of the most valid points made in this argument are:

1. Make non tracking missiles faster
2. Make tracking missiles a bit faster
3. Re balance missiles (wasn't sure if nerf or boost would be appropriate here...)

 

[Daniel L.]

I do think that beams for example are ridiculously underpowered.

it is a bit off-topic but weapons right now are practically useless.

 

[Lecic]

I do think that beams for example are ridiculously underpowered.

Then you're using them wrong. They aren't block killers. They're shield and armor killers.

 

[Daniel L.]

Then you're using them wrong. They aren't block killers. They're shield and armor killers.

They are really very weak even then.

 

[Keptick]

They are really very weak even then.

They have the exact same damage/block as the other weapons. They just deliver and distribute it differently....

 

[MrFURB]

Forgive the off-topic-ness, but I see the potential for some discussion/clarification.

I completely agree with you that beams right now drew the short straw, but since I've changed my primary armaments from missiles to beams I've noticed a few things.

First, most of my concerns related to beam weaponry came up as bug and performance issues. My beams weren't necessarily weak, but some of their damage would fail to apply correctly due to a known bug with how beams detect hits. I wasn't limited in making multi-group beams due to power use but rather the performance drop that would happen when a large beam group was fired.

Gameplay wise beam mechanics are pretty balanced. Sometimes they're a superior choice to cannons and sometimes not. It too often depends on the server configuration. Beams tend to excel when sector sizes are high but falter when max speeds are high. They're also more alpha-strike oriented, making them a better choice against regen oriented shielding.
My standard spinal weaponry tends to include a single large anti-shield beam/beam/ion (or overdrive) followed by an array of beam/cannon/punch at 4,000 damage a tick or beam/cannon/pierce (at 75-90% effect) with a lot less damage needed per tick. The specific damage numbers equate to the effective block health of advanced armor reinforced by passive pierce.

 

[Dr. Whammy]

If I might add a less combative and more constructive answer;

In real world navies, missiles are not some endless commodities that you can spam at a target like a machine gun. The are tactical one-shot-one-kill type weapons used to eliminate a higher value target outside the range of smaller unguided munitions. As such, they are extremely limited in number on a real military warship. On my Naval posting, we never had more than 1-2 dozen guided weapons on board and reloading them was considerably more complicated than just inserting a magazine into a rifle.

In the spirit of realism, missiles should be powerful but they should not be something that you spam people endlessly with.

My proposed solution; Bring back the alpha strike power of missiles by either adding more damage output or reducing power consumption. In return, apply (and increase) the group penalty to the reload time instead.

This way, you can have the powerful alpha strikes typical in the opening stages of a military engagement instead of spending 3-5 minutes trying to kill one measly >50 mass fighter or doing next to no damage to larger ships. Meanwhile, you won't have people using super missiles a crutch to compensate for their lack of combat prowess. If they miss because their opponent moves out of range, dodges or has respectable AMS units on board, they'll have to wait to fire again or be defeated when the enemy closes in and starts ripping them to shreds with cannon fire and point-blank missile strikes.

Superior equipment and fire power should always give you an advantage but superior skill and tactics should also remain important in a game like this. This isn't Eve online; we actually design and fly these rigs.


Regarding heat seekers; I agree that there needs to be a better way to predict what target they go after.

Proposed solution; Why not just have them seek the closest target that is in front of them like this?

 

[Winterhome]

Regarding heat seekers; I agree that there needs to be a better way to predict what target they go after.

Proposed solution; Why not just have them seek the closest target that is in front of them like this?

They don't need yet another buff.

 

[Dr. Whammy]

They don't need yet another buff.

What buff did heat seekers get in the first place?

 

[Winterhome]

What buff did heat seekers get in the first place?

The fact that they avoid point defense where other missiles don't, can be spammed without preparation, kill astronaut and ship alike, don't have a lockon timer, etc.

They are the epitome of a zero-effort weapon, and your suggestion takes away the only drawback that they have - that they cannot be used in fleet engagements without friendly fire.

edit: oh, and they don't care about your stealth - they'll kill you anyway

 

[Dr. Whammy]

The fact that they avoid point defense where other missiles don't, can be spammed without preparation, kill astronaut and ship alike, don't have a lockon timer, etc.

They are the epitome of a zero-effort weapon, and your suggestion takes away the only drawback that they have - that they cannot be used in fleet engagements without friendly fire.

edit: oh, and they don't care about your stealth - they'll kill you anyway

How exactly do they avoid point defense?

Also, the advantages you state are beyond pointless. I deployed heat seekers when solo engaging multiple fighters within 500m only for them to go flying out toward an abandoned station more than 2km away. I hardly consider that a buff/strength. If you just happened to be competely alone and ran into some pirates, you might get your money's worth. But the fact that there is virtually no rhyme nor reason to their targeting makes them less than useless for anything besides PD decoy flares. By your logic, I suppose we should outlaw turrets; the true epitome of a zero-effort weapon.

You seem unreasonably bothered by heat seekers. I fail to see why since ANY AI controlled unit greatly outclasses a heat seeker's targeting ability. You don't even have to hit a button like with heat seekers.

All I'm proposing is to make a broken weapon NOT suck. To balance a targeting buff, all they'd have to do is apply a power/reload penalty to offset their ease of use or decrease their maneuverability. It's not like they haven't done things like this already.

Also, regarding stealth; just because you can't see a target in one spectrum of detection doesn't mean it can't be detected in another way. Have you ever heard of sonar? A submarine looks pretty invisible under water... Until you toss a MK48 torpedo at it and let the compressional sound waves bounce off of its 'invisible' hull...

 

[Lecic]

How exactly do they avoid point defense?

By being so many missiles that nothing short of a ship covered in hundreds of PD turrets can deal with it? You try dealing with a ship that fires off 400 missiles every 15 seconds.

Also, the advantages you state are beyond pointless. I deployed heat seekers when solo engaging multiple fighters within 500m only for them to go flying out toward an abandoned station more than 2km away.

Then you are extremely unlucky, considering how swarmers are significantly more likely to target things closer to them.

You seem unreasonably bothered by heat seekers. I fail to see why since ANY AI controlled unit greatly outclasses a heat seeker's targeting ability. You don't even have to hit a button like with heat seekers.

AI turrets cannot target cloaked ships and have reduced accuracy targeting jammed ships. AI turrets can be easily destroyed once shields are below 50%. AI turrets cannot phase through their own ship and kill boarders. AI turrets are not protected by their mothership's armor levels. AI turrets do not have full movement in any direction.

Also, regarding stealth; just because you can't see a target in one spectrum of detection doesn't mean it can't be detected in another way. Have you ever heard of sonar? A submarine looks pretty invisible under water... Until you toss a MK48 torpedo at it and let the compressional sound waves bounce off of its 'invisible' hull...

The ENTIRE POINT of stealth is that you need to sacrifice heavily on all systems except power in exchange for COMPLETE INVISIBILITY. That system is worthless when some moron can turn on a clock to produce constant magic murder missiles and nullify the fact that literally all your ship is good for is being invisible.

 

[Panpiper]

Most of the ships I build are variations of miners. In a brand new game with vanilla starting resources, I will build a basic unarmed miner that permacloaks, and use my cloaking as defense from pirates and their bases. My next step up will also be a permacloak miner, but much bigger and more capable than a starter ship, and also unarmed. To upgrade beyond that I have to abandon the security of cloaking, and that means the ship has to be able to defend itself from pirates and stations. Miners are not particularly maneuverable ships and cannot dogfight. Also, it is almost always the case that if they get in a fight, they will be alone. There is no better weapon system for miners than heat seeking swarmers. They are not broken at all IMO.

Swarmers don't exactly 'avoid' point defense so much as they swamp it. There is no point defense in existence that can shoot down hundreds of missiles coming in a single swarm. They may get some, but most will get through.

I have been in countless fights versus beefed up pirates with my battleminers equipped with swarmers, and in every case they have more than acquitted themselves. Yes, they can veer off target into something that is not a threat. It is a trivial matter however to move away from such distractions so they strike the true targets. For a medium sized, heavy vessel that flies solo, like a miner, they are by far the best choice of weapon. I put a 'kill pirates' button in my hotbar that fires fifty launchers* with logic on a clock and all I have to do if there are hostiles is activate it and move away from non targets. In short order, I can go back to mining.

At a certain point, when building even larger ships, swarmers loose much of their appeal. Once a ship has the size to pack turrets armed with long range missiles (missile/beam) and heavy hitting cannon, the disadvantages of swarmers make them less than ideal.

*To spare lag on the server and also because I find faster swarmers to be more useful, each of those fifty launchers will get only a ten to one weapon/slave module ratio. That means each launcher will only launch two warheads and they will have almost the same speed as regular missiles. This both aids in point defense penetration and makes each warhead much stronger, so they can actually break through advanced armor blocks.

 

[Winterhome]

At a certain point, when building even larger ships, swarmers loose much of their appeal. Once a ship has the size to pack turrets armed with long range missiles (missile/beam) and heavy hitting cannon, the disadvantages of swarmers make them less than ideal.

I regularly run into ships in the 5 million block range and up that forego turrets in favor of swarm missiles because they're just that much harder to get rid of. You can blow turrets off and you can get into turret cover's blind spots. Swarms don't care, though.

You don't use swarms for killing pirates - you use swarms for overwhelming and ignoring *every* defense that another player has. The only thing you can do (other than kill it with a larger ship) to survive against a swarm boat is run, and with more servers using newtonian physics these days, that's becoming increasingly difficult - especially if the swarm boat is equipped with jump inhibitors.

 

[Dr. Whammy]

By being so many missiles that nothing short of a ship covered in hundreds of PD turrets can deal with it? You try dealing with a ship that fires off 400 missiles every 15 seconds.

...Then you are extremely unlucky, considering how swarmers are significantly more likely to target things closer to them.

AI turrets cannot target cloaked ships and have reduced accuracy targeting jammed ships. AI turrets can be easily destroyed once shields are below 50%. AI turrets cannot phase through their own ship and kill boarders. AI turrets are not protected by their mothership's armor levels. AI turrets do not have full movement in any direction.

Call it luck if you want; my experience has been that those 400 missiles would fly off and attack targets exceeding the missiles' range in the opposite direction of where I'm facing, while ignoring targets that are right in my face.

Given the choice, I'll take turrets that hit hostile targets over swarmers that don't. I tend to build turrets with roughly a 160-180 degree firing arc, heavy armor and light shielding. Obviously, they're not invincible but they can take quite a pounding and keep on shooting. As it stands now, HS missiles are a detriment to me in combat. If I didn't have turrets, I'd be screwed.

The ENTIRE POINT of stealth is that you need to sacrifice heavily on all systems except power in exchange for COMPLETE INVISIBILITY. That system is worthless when some moron can turn on a clock to produce constant magic murder missiles and nullify the fact that literally all your ship is good for is being invisible.

Given how stealth works in this game, I can agree with your point on this. There has to be some way to balance this responsibly.

How about this?

Slaving a missile computer adds the heat seeker ability but adding missile modules to the slaved system increases the number of missiles generated (like normal) but decreases their homing capability. In essence; a 1:0 ratio yields a seeker with the best tracking while a 1:1 ratio generates dumb fire shotgun missiles. This would allow players to choose their own balance while making heat seekers neither useless nor OP.

Your thoughts?

 

[spunkiethefirst]

I wouldn't consider swarmers op since if you have a ship with 100% overdrive effect those seekers become mostly useless. In a vanilla settings game the most speed available is less than 150m/s max overdrive is = 150m/s and at that speed each group is only firing one missile.

Also you can use your imagination and knowledge of missile behavior to make up odd ball defenses like this one:

Be smarter than the missile.