A Suggestion about mechas land vehicles, robots and armor

[El_Poulpy]

By reading the title you may think it’s another thread which go in every directions but all is linked

mecha

On the older site there was a (i remember only this one) suggestion post about mecha. To make them they suggested to implement motor blocs and link them together to make arms, legs, etc …

I don’t thought it was a good solution because to make an arm you would have to various type of blocs makes calcul to have the cinematic model, it would use a lot of CPu to calculate colisions between parts and if i remember well there wasn’t a solution to how you control it.


My idea is to use predefined shapes with predefined animations, it’s a little like the player model.

First you get/make a model file with a skeleton with designed area where you can place blocks and a set of animations.
Then in game you have a block, let’s call it skeleton block in this post (i’m not good to find names) which allows to select a defined skeleton among the list catalog of shapes you have.
When you have selected your shape, you place blocks to fill the bones of your skeleton.

Let’s take the example of legs :

(my apologies i’m not good with Paint)

• The green boxes in the picture (i’ll call them bone boxes) delimit the space where you can put blocks, while it stays in the boundaries of the box you can make every shape you want

• the grey spheres are the joints they are here just to fill the void between bone parts

• The red boxes are the collisions box for interaction with other things (player/ships/planet/ stations …)

The good points with this approch are :

• you consider emsembles (legs/ arms) and not parts (hand/forearm/elbow) so you don’t have to care about collision between parts, this was taken care of when the animation of the skeleton was made

• controls are easier :

1. 1. i push forward then i go forward and the corresponding animation is triggerred
   2. i push 1,2,3…. And i trigger the animation to the arm 1,2,3…

• The skeleton is like a character model, so there would be part of the code about character animation that could be re-used

• Omni said Schema was/is/will work on a tool to make cutomized characters models with animations etc …. There would need few modification to this tool to make a skeleton shape editor

Land vehicles

In most sci-fi universes there are 3 (correct me if i forgot one) types of locomotion for land vehicules :

• Legs
• Wheels
• Repulsors

The skeleton block described in the first part can be a solution to make these3 types of land vehicles

legs : the most obvious, with a skeleton block with a leg model and animation you can make a walking vehicule like for instance :

Spoiler

Weels : it may look far different from legs unless you consider that a weel is just an horizontal leg that rotate on its axe then a skeleton block with a correct preset allow to make wheeled vehicle (see picture)

There is 2 problems that still remains for wheels :

• You can move lateraly, it’s a bit odd for a car/buggy/moto (maybe add to the skeleton and animation a configuration of allowed/forbided movements)
• You can’t make a caterpillar tractors

Repulsors : it’s easy just consider a skeleton bloc with a preset with a unique bone box that stays empty and you have a vehicle whith repulsor.

Robots

Well mecha are technically robots without AI so to make a robot you just put an AI module on a mecha and that’s done. That’s true but whith the skeleton block you whill only make big robots.

I have a solution to make more human-sized robots use ‘mini cubes’

There’s a thread about handled weapon :

In this thread one of the idea (by BasicPaul)is to build weapon with ‘mini cubes’, and when you save it the weapon is stored not as a collection of block but as an unique entity to lessen the calculation needs.

If this is doable implemented, it could be used to make human sized robot : you use a ‘mini skeleton cube’, the bone part of your robot are made of ‘mini bloc’ and each bone part is saved as an unique entity.you have a robot made of a tenth twentyth of parts instead of hundreds.


Armor

If the part about robots is implemented you havealready made customizable armor : the bone boxes of a skeleton bloc with an humanoid preset are the different part of the armor and with the minibloc save system proposed by BasicPaul there wouldn ‘t be few parts to deal with making it less CPU costly.



I hope i was clear in my explanation, let's hear your opinion on this idea,
do you think it is good idea ? do you see way to improve it ?

PS: i don't know if it's me or we are unlogged to rapidly, i had

 

[Fuyuko]

Very , very interesting . I like the concept .

 

[SkylordLuke]

or simply turn off colision for arms and legs :p ,just like turrets go through your main ship

 

[Zedrackis]

Questions:
= How is this useful on planets when most planets with people on them are faction homes?
- How would physics engine handle this when it already has a hard time with ships on planets?
= How long will something that is designed to work on the planet, last against a typical missile bombardment?

 

[ArgoContar]

Zedrackis
1 They are usefull when you don't want to walk around the planet as it is really slow and people usually want to move faster.
2 The only ships that belong on planets are shuttles and fighters,maybe even a bit bigger ships but not more than 100m. Anything bigger is made for space not planets...
3 They are designed for use on planets not to kill huge spaceships or survuve their attacks... vehicles are made to fight other vehicles or to use as transport around a base.

 

[El_Poulpy]

tenk11kamikaza technically in my proposition the diferent parts of an arm or a leg act like you describe

Zedrackis your questions 1 and 3 are a little of topic ;
1 : this is more an issue with the faction system, but like ArgoContar said it is to move faster on a planet
3 : this question is more about balance issue while the topic is about a way to make locomotion.
technically a vehicle would hardly resist an orbital strike like a tank would hardly survive an heavy bombardment unless there is, for instance, a planetary shield able to deflect every bombardment (the empire strike back )

About your second question, it may be an issue, that i hope will be reduced with optimization schema is making but like ArgoContar said because there wouldn't be big vehicules (most of the time), they would become inpractical if to big, they could be handled by the engine. This is only conjectures, the only one who can answer clearly is schema

 

[BasicPaul]

Feel free to post the link to my thread in your post. Definitely needs all the publicity it can get! Cheers.

 

[ltmauve]

Interesting, I suppose that this could do a lot, the problem is if you want to have parts on your ship that move like this. Also designing a custom skelaton if you want a different result would be a pain. On the other hand the skeleton would provide a nice control scheme for this.

 

[NeonSturm]

Questions:
= How is this useful on planets when most planets with people on them are faction homes?
- How would physics engine handle this when it already has a hard time with ships on planets?
= How long will something that is designed to work on the planet, last against a typical missile bombardment?

Maybe they don't have 3D collisions but just 2D collisions with the floor/ceiling?

This game is about creativity - or should everything be a battle-cube?

 

[El_Poulpy]

NeonSturm I'm not sure make just 2D collisions will solve the issue, you'll have to check two entities, instead of one ; it'll depend on how it will be coded.
There is a possible problem : you'll be able to go through the legs with a small entity between the floor and the ceiling

@Itmauve i didn't think about ships when i made this suggestion, in that case it's true that would be a pain to make a skeleton to a part of your ship, maybe it shouldn't be allowed on ships because it could lead to big skeleton then lag issue .

 

[Viridis00]

I like the idea of the OP, but something like this would take a hell of a lot of effort. I can see land vehicles, but mecha? I think that once modding starts for this game, someone will do it, but inclusion in the actual game is a damn long shot.

Don't get me wrong, I love mecha. I'd love to swarm a ship with Zaku IIs, or assault someone with a Metal Gear REX clone. I think in the Q&As they pretty much said not to get our hopes up for moving parts. However, if you think about it, the skeleton system for the new player models may provide insight later on. Nothing is set in stone (planets come to mind).

 

[MrNature72]

When it comes to vehicles, honestly, I just want 2 things.

1) Hover blocks. The more, the higher the projection, and they have to be placed evenly.

2) Turret block. Like a tank turret. So you can be driving in one direction and shooting in another.

 

[El_Poulpy]

Viridis00 i don't think it would be a lot of effort because it would re-use code from turret and from player model. I may be wrong, this is mere speculation, i can't say for sure untill i see the code or a dev gives his opinion. I may try to make a mod when modding would be possible

MrNature72 you should have more ambitions for vehicles like you have in your bible suggestion about factions the universse the meaning of life and all the rest. It be cool to have different ways of locomotions more or less adapted in fonction of the planet landscape.

 

[Lecic]

Viridis00 i don't think it would be a lot of effort because it would re-use code from turret and from player model. I may be wrong, this is mere speculation, i can't say for sure untill i see the code or a dev gives his opinion. I may try to make a mod when modding would be possible

MrNature72 you should have more ambitions for vehicles like you have in your bible suggestion about factions the universse the meaning of life and all the rest. It be cool to have different ways of locomotions more or less adapted in fonction of the planet landscape.

How would it reuse the code from the turret and player model? The player has a "skeleton" with animations, it doesn't actually make steps and move because of friction like that. A mech is built from blocks. Unless you ignore the hitbox of a mech an implement a standard one, that wouldn't work. Also, how would the system handle differently sized legs, differently sized sub legs, and non-bipedal mechs? Humanoid mechs are sucky, anyway. If you're going to build a legged vehical, you build it with 4 or more spider like legs.

 

[El_Poulpy]

Lecic i think you didn't understood my idea, i suggest you re-read my first post more carefully(maybe i didn't explained it well) :
- the block is a type of core which define a skeleton stored in a file
- this file, made with an editor similar to the one that would exist to player model, will define the skeleton,with areas where block could be placed, a hitbox and the animations.

How would it reuse the code from the turret and player model?

- It re-use code from the player model because it behave like a player model, you have a skeleton, a hitbox and animations
- it reuse code from turret because the mobile parts are like turrets they don't have collision and a defined relative movement relative to the principal part, this movement is not 3 axis rotations but movements defined by the animation.

how would the system handle differently sized legs, differently sized sub legs, and non-bipedal mechs?

- when you make the file you define the skeleton with the size of the legs and subs legs and the number of legs, of arms/tentacles etc ... i made an exemple with the first image in my first post :

If you're going to build a legged vehical, you build it with 4 or more spider like legs

I hope my explanation was clear and now you get my idea.

PS: it's funny part of your critics are the same, word for word, of the one i made to an other mecha suggestion

 

[Lecic]

Lecic i think you didn't understood my idea, i suggest you re-read my first post more carefully(maybe i didn't explained it well) :
- the block is a type of core which define a skeleton stored in a file
- this file, made with an editor similar to the one that would exist to player model, will define the skeleton,with areas where block could be placed, a hitbox and the animations.


- It re-use code from the player model because it behave like a player model, you have a skeleton, a hitbox and animations
- it reuse code from turret because the mobile parts are like turrets they don't have collision and a defined relative movement relative to the principal part, this movement is not 3 axis rotations but movements defined by the animation.


- when you make the file you define the skeleton with the size of the legs and subs legs and the number of legs, of arms/tentacles etc ... i made an exemple with the first image in my first post :
-image snip-

-meme snip-

I hope my explanation was clear and now you get my idea.

PS: it's funny part of your critics are the same, word for word, of the one i made to an other mecha suggestion

Some walkers from Star Wars don't count. Anyone in their right mind would design a mech with at least 4 legs, spread equally out on a battle platform. With 2 legs, you lose one to an attack, and you're down. With three, the same is also likely. With 4 or more legs, it's easier to redistribute the weight to other legs and continue functioning.

Speaking of which, how would these mechs handle loosing a leg?
Also, would the legs of the mech share shields and power with body?
If a mech is too front or rear heavy, does it fall forward/backward? Does the system account for the weight of the body:legs? If my body weighs 50x the legs, what happens?
Does the system account for legs with more than 3 (upper, lower, foot) pieces? What about mechs with a tripod with a rear leg with 6 segments that's 3x as large as the two front 4 segmented legs, for example of mechs with varying lengths and segments.

My criticisms are the same because the suggestions are basically the same. They should really be merged into a single suggestion, although the other one is much less thought out and should probably just be deleted.

And my final question - For what reason would someone use mechs instead of the upcoming hover vehicles?

Also, one last point- I'm not against mechs. I just want, if mechs are added, to be the best they can be, so I'm very critical of mech suggestions.

This is what I say when I mean 4 or more legged walker, by the way, not the cruddy walkers the republic/empire have.

 

[Aecetym]

Starwars is outdated when it come to the sci-fy stuff and fundamentally flawed in so many ways, still great don't get me wrong, but don't try think about it.

Anyway like Lecic said:

Anyone in their right mind would design a mech with at least 4 legs, spread equally out on a battle platform. With 2 legs, you lose one to an attack, and you're down. With three, the same is also likely. With 4 or more legs, it's easier to redistribute the weight to other legs and continue functioning.

The only way a 2 legged vehicle would be viable is when it would be small, mobile and still armored enough for it to dodge the incoming damage/fire, be able to survive a small hits and still pack enough punch. And that if the 4 or more legged variety wouldn't do better.

 

[El_Poulpy]

Speaking of which, how would these mechs handle loosing a leg?

It depend of the complexity of the hitbox,
- if it's like the simple one i made in my picture, nothing would happen the mech would still stand.
- if you make a more complex hitbox with a hitbox for each leg, the loss of the leg would mean a loss of a part of the hitbox , then a two legs mecha would fall like a ship would fall on a planet

Also, would the legs of the mech share shields and power with body?

yes

If a mech is too front or rear heavy, does it fall forward/backward? Does the system account for the weight of the body:legs? If my body weighs 50x the legs, what happens?

I didn't think it should handle physics, because it would increase calculation needs and make it to complicated for most of people, killing the fun. The fact of not handling physics could lead to some physically impossible things but starmade is not very physically acurate. Maybe you have ideas to introduce physics while not making it too complex ?

Does the system account for legs with more than 3 (upper, lower, foot) pieces? What about mechs with a tripod with a rear leg with 6 segments that's 3x as large as the two front 4 segmented legs, for example of mechs with varying lengths and segments.

- a leg with more than 3 parts is possible, when you make the skeleton you define the number of part and their behaviour through animations,.
- varying lengths and segments : i dont' know if it's possible to make the rendering of block size change easily, in the current state, bone parts don't change size, the joint part could handle the variation, it 's only a texture to make the link between bone parts.

And my final question - For what reason would someone use mechs instead of the upcoming hover vehicles?

because it's cooler, more seriously i don't know enough about how the system works, the only things i thought were:
- if it exist hover jammer or planetary phenomenon jamming hover.
- if it were physically accurate legged vehicle would be more stable to exterior perturbations and knockback effect

 

[Miow22]

Firstly, I think the arguements against the two legged thing are a bit stupid. Its a sci fi game where you use your imagination, realistic or not.
...duh!

and secondly I love the idea of the mechas, land vehicles, robots & armor.
Especially the land vehicles. :P

 

[Viridis00]

Speaking of which, how would these mechs handle loosing a leg?

Same way a quadruped does. They don't.

They get immobilized and killed by the bigger mecha or foot soldiers with RPGs.

You can't really apply strict real life rules to mecha because the only place mecha would have in a real life scenario is either-
a) in space, as legs don't matter regardless, but neither does any shape for that matter.
b) being very small like Knightmare Frames (Code Geass) or Scopedogs (Armored Trooper Votoms), basically at that point borderline power armor.
c) quadrupeds or higher in very rough, uneven terrain for maneuverability and the ability to raise or lower their profile.

I'd rather not just be limited to >=4 legs. You'll see a lot more creativity and a lot more nice recreations too, since there's a lot more giant robots in Japanese media than there is in western sci-fi.