Cores, Chairs and Crew and Balancing Ship Size

[Yaodin]

So there are a couple of issues with large ships at the moment. The first issue is core drilling and having a single point of failure on large ships. Related is the desire for a pilots seat or a reason to make the bridge useful and the last is necessitating a crew. It is somewhat silly to have titans run by one person. So here's my proposed solution to all of these.

Every ship would, like now, have a root core that acts as the center of the ship and starting point for construction. Alone this core would behave as it does now but with one exception, slots. A core would have a limited number of slots available to it to control things like weapons computers, salvage beams, etc. Additionally, piloting the ship would take up some of these slots. The computers would be connected to the core that controls them and a new block, call it a nav computer, would be connected to the core that is piloting. For additional slots you can simply add more cores or a pilot's seat (a reskinned core, with fewer slots, that can seat someone firstperson). All of the cores in a ship would split (not share) a single heath pool determined by the mass of the ship.

For scalability, the number of weapon blocks that are connected to a computer determine how many slots the computer takes up in the core. This means the main cannons of a titan would have to be controlled by a separate core from the pilot, yet a small fighter could be controlled by one person. Large ships would also benefit from spreading systems out requiring damage over a large area to disable them.

With this system turrets could easily become overpowered so turret docking nodes would need to be connected to a core. The turrets would then target the user in the core's target or autofire, depending how the bobby is set.

Passive systems such a shields could be addressed by adding another block, say a shield controller, and connecting it to a core (whose slot count is based on shield block count). The shield system would then receive a buff when a user is occupying it's control core.

This balances ship size by forcing titans to be run by many people or take a severe handicap in what it is capable to perform. A solo titan pitot that can only move and fire it's main cannon could be successfully harassed or even killed by a small group of fighters. Yet in a major battle if the bridge is taken out and the ship can't move someone could still be controlling turrets or boosting shields while they try to repair.

 

[CyberTao]

The problem with this is it sorta collides with an already upcoming feature; Logic Blocks can activate Weapon Computers. Whats more, having the Block group size increase the number of blocks you'd need to assign to it, then a limited number of blocks per core puts a Hard limit on weapon sizes (Which Schema wishes to avoid).

Also, The system will break support for modular ships, since you would have to have someone in the core of the parts to run the attached turrets?

Add in the fact that cores are limited to 1 per ship, and before you could add multiple, you would have to be allowed to removed and adjust cores without destroying the whole ship :u Add in the fact that Bobby AI is set to become a rare/expensive Module and NPC is to run turrets, I think there is simplier ways for Schema to do what your saying :u

 

[Yaodin]

It only collides with locig blocks if there is going to be a way to activate logic blocks from inside the core. Otherwise not being able to aim the weapon counters that.

I don't think you understood what I meant on the turrets. The turret dock is connected to a core, so whatever is docked there is controlled by that core on the mothership.

Did you even read the second paragraph? The first core would be like it is now, just limited. You can add other cores but you still can't move the first.

And what does bobby rarity have to do with this? If you have a turret you already have a bobby for it so this system changes nothing.

I'll admit this would limit weapon power to however many slots a core has but with scaling additional blocks do to weapons it would have to be so absurdle big, scaling it down a little wouldn't effect output much at all.

 

[CyberTao]

Well Bobby AI replacement makes a difference, cause you can just Pile NPCs into the extra cores/chairs. So thats a thing you havent accounted for really :u

And the idea was to have more people onboard a ship? New NPCs will eventually be a Must have for Large ships, so that is what I meant. Large ships will become more complex and need some extra hands, but they may not be players.

Also, your slot idea can be abused slightly, cause you can dock many turrets to a plate, then dock the plate to the main ship :u Chain docking fancy stuff.

And from what I know about how the Docking beam acts, and what I can imagine happening, Docking beams may be able to trigger Logic blocks (just like how they can trigger lights).

And as a Final note; It would break all previous ships most likely :u Which although many people say is alright, Schema does not want that. And Quite honestly, this seems to combine current things + future planned things - 3-

 

[Yaodin]

I wasn't intending to the cores to be controlled by AI, that makes the whole system pointless aside from decentralized control. The idea is to have more people on large ships. One of the biggest complaints with combat right now is there isn't really any point for people to not fly giant titans. As is, battles pretty much boil down to how many blocks you have. In a survival setting you want titans to be rare, something factions have to work for and together to protect. This systems enables that and give balance (and a reason) to use smaller ships.

The slot idea cannot be abused the way you said. You can't chain dock turrets (though I'm not sure if that's planned) and you can't do cross ship logic so the only thing it breaks is being able to use turrets docked to ships docked to you, which I don't see as an issue. If you want, someone can go into the docked ship and control the turrets while docked.

If docking beams can trigger logic blocks then that kind of breaks this idea. I do feel however, if we're going to ballance big and small ships (or at least make them both useful) either big ships need a nerf, or small one need a buff. I've been thinking about a super long cooldown nuke block that only dumb fires and doesn't scale with more blocks. Meaning big ships could never aim it but small ones could.

 

[CyberTao]

The problem with Balancing Big ships and small ships is that Neither technically exist, The game just has "Ships". And I feel reworking Accuracy and turn speed of turrets, Thruster revamping and maybe a cloak/Jam revamp could easily help people overcome the Size issues. But for now, "Titans" are really just "Overweight fighters" due to missing mechanics.

I dunno, I personally dont like it cause it feels Limiting, and there -IS- a Singleplayer mode :u and I assume there will be things like Adventure maps once we get stuff like LUA scripting. So while requiring More Crew might help Multiplayer, Please remember there is a Single Player mode as well.

 

[Yaodin]

I guess it would be easy enough to just allow AI control in single player or have it as a server option. It is kind of limiting in multiplayer but I feel it would add another teamwork dimension that would ultimately add to the game. That and it helps with decentralized health.

IDK, it was just an idea and maybe it will inspire someone else's solution.

 

[CyberTao]

Indeed :u was a solid idea, just doesnt seem to quite fit in the scale of this game :p hopefully we see something like it though

 

[ltmauve]

Well, if NPCs aren't as easy to get or keep as finding a shop and just buying them for 50,000 apiece or whatever, requiring some form of NPC crew to effectively run a large ship wouldn't prevent building large ships, but it would prevent fielding them.

Assuming that's the case, you could give each system an efficiency (between 1 and 0) that determines how close to normal effectiveness it is. The efficiency decreases as the size of the system increases. You would use chairs (see the threads about those for details) to restore efficiency. Hook them up to any block in a general system (shields, power, thrust) or to the weapon controller of a weapons system. Hooking a chair up to the core of a ship gives a lower boost to all systems then a specialized chair. (so if your ship has efficiencies in the 90%'s and specialized chairs are inefficient, you would use those.)

Of course, this would only be a partial balance to large ships.

 

[Visitor]

I actually agree with the idea of somewhat limiting factor in multiplayer. Need for a crew, as long as it's not completely vital thing (decreased efficiency if there's not enough crewmembers) would actually add to some differentiation in fleets, instead of making absolutely everyone go for capital ships with one pilot per vessel.

One way or another, some sort of balancing would be good. As I've stated previously, currently big ships are often just up-scaled fighters, most combat-oriented designs fit simple rule of 'put more blocks in it' and every battle is a boring slugfest. More underlined differences not only in handling of bigger ships, but also design and logistics would help these issues quite much, in addition to making warfare depend on tactics and proper allocation of pilots, not slapping together as many blocks as possible in as many ships as possible.

 

[Rickswan]

One of the biggest complaints with combat right now is there isn't really any point for people to not fly giant titans. As is, battles pretty much boil down to how many blocks you have. In a survival setting you want titans to be rare, something factions have to work for and together to protect.

I think OP's idea is too complex, but I agree that combat shouldn't boil down to how many blocks you have. I propose a simple idea:

In Sci-Fi properties like Star Wars, what is the advantage of fighters vs huge ships? It boils down to maneuverability. I think in the current state of the game, humongous ships are way too maneuverable - they can still reach server top speeds and aim fast enough to hit fighters if they have enough thrusters.

I think it should be re-balanced so that huge "titan" ships are really only maneuverable enough to hit other big ships with their on-board weapons. This would play up the need for turrets - if you notice in films like Star Wars, ships like Star Destroyers really have no defense against fighters other than turrets and shields. I think it should take a looong time to even turn a titan around. This would mean that a single fighter would have a chance against a huge ship that isn't properly defended by turrets and other fighters.

Their role would effectively be changed to deal with other titan ships, as weapons platforms for turrets and as launching pads for fighters - they would be more like giant space aircraft carriers and mobile command centers than huge fighters.

To compensate for the slow speed, the game could incorporate something like hyperdrive or warp gates, possibly with a cooldown and distance limit. This would mean titans could still travel vast distances. This idea shouldn't be too tough for the programmers to implement.

Well, if NPCs aren't as easy to get or keep as finding a shop and just buying them for 50,000 apiece or whatever, requiring some form of NPC crew to effectively run a large ship wouldn't prevent building large ships, but it would prevent fielding them.

I also really like the idea of NPC's. This may not be feasible, but just an idea: maybe instead of the Bobby AI module, there could be pilot modules for NPC's to man. This would open up new possibilities, such as boarding. While it wouldn't be possible to board fighters, lumbering titans would be fair game. Once boarded, NPC's would have to defend the interior of the ship - a dead NPC would mean an un-manned turret, meaning less defenses against fighters... this would increase the need to protect your titan ships.

I actually agree with the idea of somewhat limiting factor in multiplayer. Need for a crew, as long as it's not completely vital thing (decreased efficiency if there's not enough crewmembers) would actually add to some differentiation in fleets, instead of making absolutely everyone go for capital ships with one pilot per vessel.

The idea of decreased efficiency also intrigues me. Maybe without enough crew to operate the engineering room, weapons, etc., those respective systems would operate at a lower capacity. This would mean you have to adequately man your huge ship, and if they added the need to, say, feed everybody on the ship, it would make huge ships far tougher to maintain. That's just a fun idea though. Mainly, I think vastly lowering the maneuverability of titan ships and adding NPC's to man stations would be the priorities to focus on.

 

[Visitor]

adding NPC's to man stations

Provided acquiring said NPCs would be done in some reasonable way. For example, simply buying them would be a death of the whole system as creation/maintenace of the ship would then practically remain without change - NPCs would be just another thing added to the checklist of elements needed for construction.

 

[Rickswan]

Provided acquiring said NPCs would be done in some reasonable way. For example, simply buying them would be a death of the whole system as creation/maintenace of the ship would then practically remain without change - NPCs would be just another thing added to the checklist of elements needed for construction.

I totally agree. NPC's shouldn't just be another thing to check off on a list, I could see them being much more. I think a game that does something similar very well is FTL. In that game, you have crew, but they are a vital and very expensive resource that is very hard to come by. Different crew members have different stats, and they even have RPG elements where they get better at manning a station the longer you have them doing it. You're occasionally awarded crew members for doing certain actions. They even had individual names, so losing one was a big deal. I could see something similar in this game where it takes a lot of money to acquire NPC's, and maybe even a quest or mission system could be put in place where you are awarded them (I made a thread on missions here). This guy's thread actually has some good ideas on how NPC's could work.

 

[ltmauve]

Yeah. Ways of getting NPCs:
Rescuing them from pirate stations, but be careful not to kill them.
Mission rewards
Limits on hiring from shops based on faction size. Additional NPCs (that you hire) would cost faction points.

 

[Yaodin]

What if you had to not only hire but pay crew?

 

[Rickswan]

What if you had to not only hire but pay crew?

Hmm, I see a problem with paying them, because the ships are persistent even if you're not on the server. If you didn't play the game for a while, you would come back drained of funds and all your crew would have abandoned you!

In Star Trek, because they had things like replicators, they abandoned money. Another way of doing it would be that in order to have crew, you would need to meet requirements, like having:

• a replicator block (for food and personal items)
• life support block
• holodeck blocks (recreation, so they don't get bored and leave!)
• beds

But money still exists in the StarMade universe, so maybe there could be a system where you only pay the crew when you need them

 

[Yaodin]

Hmm, I see a problem with paying them, because the ships are persistent even if you're not on the server. If you didn't play the game for a while, you would come back drained of funds and all your crew would have abandoned you!

Perhaps you don't have to pay crew when the ship is docked to your faction home.

 

[Rickswan]

Perhaps you don't have to pay crew when the ship is docked to your faction home.

That could work!

 

[Ithirahad]

Perhaps you don't have to pay crew when the ship is docked to your faction home.

Perhaps you shouldn't have to pay crew unless they actually have to do things on your ship. That way, it doesn't hurt large ships... As much as I'm not a fan of stupid-huge ships, I'd rather not have all of my crew leave (disappear) because I had to go on a vacation for a few weeks and didn't have my computer.

 

[ltmauve]

If you had a station with enough "support" facilties, you would be able to dock to it and then it would "support" your crew. These support facilities would be something like sleeping quarters, dining areas, lounges, etc. Basically the more support areas you have, the more crew a station could support. (not a fan of homebase=instant support everything on it, just cause you could "support" your crew with a skeleton station) Otherwise, you would still have to pay your support costs.

That being said, I also think that there should be crew that you don't have to pay upkeep for. (Assuming you don't require upkeep either). A certain number of crew for your faction size, and crew that you get as mission rewards, or rescue from pirates or whatever.