Invulnerability and Base Raiding

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    Well, what if you've already scouted the area?
    We need a better map system - and I'm talking about the ability to buy and sell maps, as well as remembering what a player "knows"




    These will be on by default, right?



    Maybe this should be the default for newly created factions. After all, a beginner to the game going onto their first server doesn't want to have their base captured every evening after they log off, or lose it after they take a bit of a break from the game.

    Hmmm...
    What sort of criteria should be used to determine if a faction should be passive or not?
    First off, any faction that has been at war should not be able to be passive. No rebuilding after war without some risk.
    Second, there needs to be a way for an admin to make a condition (probably territory size) that will automatically switch a faction from passive to active in war. I say territory size because we don't want someone building a huge empire that prevents other players from building near them without having to put themselves at risk.
    And also, factions should be able to set themselves as active even if they don't meet the criteria.
    agreed. I'm thinking you're automatically a combative faction if you attack any other player faction (ship or station), or trading guild but no effect from attacking pirate faction? and you can return to passive by not being at war and not attacking player factions, trading guild or even pirate stations (but not ships) for a week and then paying a large chunk of faction points, like 300 to the trading guild to get your passive rights back

    and maybe there's a warning, so a misfire doesn't get anyone blow'd up and losing all progress?

    I also think that you shouldn't be able to declare war on a passive faction, or if you do it doesn't make them in combat, only you
     

    CyberTao

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    Hmmm...
    What sort of criteria should be used to determine if a faction should be passive or not?
    First off, any faction that has been at war should not be able to be passive. No rebuilding after war without some risk.
    Second, there needs to be a way for an admin to make a condition (probably territory size) that will automatically switch a faction from passive to active in war. I say territory size because we don't want someone building a huge empire that prevents other players from building near them without having to put themselves at risk.
    And also, factions should be able to set themselves as active even if they don't meet the criteria.
    The best way to do that is to set restrictions on what can be "passive". Claiming multiple systems is part of the PvP game, so passives might just be restricted to only 1 system, and if you tie a max-mass for ships allowed to be factioned to the number of owned systems (owning 5 systems might let you have 5million mass for ships for example), it would prevent people from just stocking up and blitzing (Suggestion requires Shipyards).

    What seems to be suggested in this thread is that I, as a non-combative, builder/miner with a micro-faction have no real place.
    What people tend to forget is how modifiable SM is. The default config will probably be set up to best support SP or Casual servers, but can be modified for those that desire more intense PvP. People need to get rid of that idea that all players can play on the same server, because a lot of people want to play in vastly different ways.

    You wouldn't be able to claim a single sector. Any sector within X sectors of a faction station will be claimed by that faction. Or rather, sectors are claimed by whichever faction has the most TCM with X sectors of it. So it isn't a single sector claim, it's an area claim, but if you are close to another faction you might not get all the area.

    For the second problem: give each block type a TCM score. Dirt, plants, and rock have a TCM of 1. Decorative blocks have a TCM of maybe 10-20. System and hull blocks get a TCM of 100-150.
    For the first problem, store the initial TCM of an object. Subtract that from the structure's current TCM.
    If I can throw my input on this; Planets should not be claimable. Stations should only be used to claim sectors, and you will own a planet so long as it is within a owned sector.

    This would prevent the current PvP meta of just blowing up planets, cause that is all that really happens to planets in wars. You could argue that it detract from the sandbox, but you can always just stick a couple small stations around the planet (as the game does now allow multiple stations per sector) that force a player to go around the planet to destroy the stations and take it, exposing the attacker to more plates which might house turrets (Current planet defense is laughable because they only need to clear a few plates).
     
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    if you tie a max-mass for ships allowed to be factioned to the number of owned systems (owning 5 systems might let you have 5million mass for ships for example), it would prevent people from just stocking up and blitzing (Suggestion requires Shipyards).
    Maybe instead of having a maximum mass for an individual ship, instead you have a max amount of ships you can have out of storage at a time? So even a tiny faction can have a titan, but it's strategically limited by burning down their FP whenever they activate it.
     

    CyberTao

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    Maybe instead of having a maximum mass for an individual ship, instead you have a max amount of ships you can have out of storage at a time? So even a tiny faction can have a titan, but it's strategically limited by burning down their FP whenever they activate it.
    The problem with that is that you could just stock and amass titans in the docks then. The old docking is gone, you could legit have titans docked to titans docked to a 3 block station, which is why I suggested a Mass limit. I'm not against passive factions having a titan, but being passive, they don't need the same overkill titans that most factions have, as they would be limited to fighting AI and mining.

    Just my thoughts on it though.
     

    MrFURB

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    I'd rather avoid any solutions that require a ton of rules and exceptions to operate smoothly. I think that what would mesh well with Starmade are implicit rules that can be easily guessed/reasoned without looking them up and systems that are flexible enough to serve a wide array of uses with minimal content. Might take a lot of brainstorming to get to a solution that fulfills that criteria. I think it'll be worth it.
     
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    The problem with that is that you could just stock and amass titans in the docks then.
    Okay valid point. Maybe just a straight up limit on the total mass of the fleet? I'd rather have a fleet mass limit than a ship mass limit.


    If I can throw my input on this; Planets should not be claimable. Stations should only be used to claim sectors, and you will own a planet so long as it is within a owned sector.

    This would prevent the current PvP meta of just blowing up planets, cause that is all that really happens to planets in wars. You could argue that it detract from the sandbox, but you can always just stick a couple small stations around the planet (as the game does now allow multiple stations per sector) that force a player to go around the planet to destroy the stations and take it, exposing the attacker to more plates which might house turrets (Current planet defense is laughable because they only need to clear a few plates).
    Well, the planet core itself won't be giving any TCM, right? So what if the plates are scattered around a bit? You're still getting the TCM from the bases you've built on the planet. And while you've been blowing up the planet, you're giving your enemy more time to counterattack and destroy your force. And now you have to run around the sector to capture or destroy all the plates.
     

    CyberTao

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    Okay valid point. Maybe just a straight up limit on the total mass of the fleet? I'd rather have a fleet mass limit than a ship mass limit.
    Oh, yeah that is what I meant. I don't always have the best wording, but I meant total combined ship mass, so basically a fleet limit.

    Well, the planet core itself won't be giving any TCM, right? So what if the plates are scattered around a bit? You're still getting the TCM from the bases you've built on the planet. And while you've been blowing up the planet, you're giving your enemy more time to counterattack and destroy your force. And now you have to run around the sector to capture or destroy all the plates.
    Planets honestly confuse me balance wise. When I think of planets, I think Civilian with some defenses.

    Planets themselves would not count towards the TCM at all, but turrets docked to it, as well as hangers would, so to take a planet you would only have to destroy the hangers and defensive turrets. This should mean that most of the planet should still be usable after being attacked and taken (since destroying it would not destroy the parts you need to).
     
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    What people tend to forget is how modifiable SM is. The default config will probably be set up to best support SP or Casual servers, but can be modified for those that desire more intense PvP. People need to get rid of that idea that all players can play on the same server, because a lot of people want to play in vastly different ways.
    I'm not saying the game ISN'T customizable, I'm saying that the ideology of this thread seems to be focused on intense and difficult PvP, with no safe havens. For a PvP oriented game, that would be balanced, but from what I can tell Star Made, thus far, is building and exploration based. As fun as skirmishes would be, I don't want to ever risk my entire livelihood, because I'm not hardcore and can't farm it all back in a week, and I', not good at PvP, so I couldn't actually defend it myself
     

    CyberTao

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    I'm not saying the game ISN'T customizable, I'm saying that the ideology of this thread seems to be focused on intense and difficult PvP, with no safe havens. For a PvP oriented game, that would be balanced, but from what I can tell Star Made, thus far, is building and exploration based. As fun as skirmishes would be, I don't want to ever risk my entire livelihood, because I'm not hardcore and can't farm it all back in a week, and I', not good at PvP, so I couldn't actually defend it myself
    To which my suggestion would be to not end up on a server full of PvP crazed nut-wings who just want to eat your ship's corpse. Topics like this are often full of the pvp type, which is good because it leads to a more indepth system, which can be modified with parts disabled for the more casual/PvE focused. Keep in mind, there are different kinds of PvE and PvP as well, so the whole system is confusing and would be easily tweakable on a per-server basis.
     
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    To which my suggestion would be to not end up on a server full of PvP crazed nut-wings who just want to eat your ship's corpse. Topics like this are often full of the pvp type, which is good because it leads to a more indepth system, which can be modified with parts disabled for the more casual/PvE focused. Keep in mind, there are different kinds of PvE and PvP as well, so the whole system is confusing and would be easily tweakable on a per-server basis.
    To which my suggestion would be to not end up on a server full of PvP crazed nut-wings who just want to eat your ship's corpse. Topics like this are often full of the pvp type, which is good because it leads to a more indepth system, which can be modified with parts disabled for the more casual/PvE focused. Keep in mind, there are different kinds of PvE and PvP as well, so the whole system is confusing and would be easily tweakable on a per-server basis.
    I understand that, and I'm not saying that it would be the be-all-end-all, I'm saying that, even, or ESPECIALLY, on a PvP oriented thread that people need to take in mind the people who don't like or can't do PvP and propose ideas that can include them, aside from "don't like it, just config it" because if you can't accommodate other play-styles that don't include PvP, then it cant be a terribly well rounded or thought out idea
     
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    Planets themselves would not count towards the TCM at all, but turrets docked to it, as well as hangers would, so to take a planet you would only have to destroy the hangers and defensive turrets. This should mean that most of the planet should still be usable after being attacked and taken (since destroying it would not destroy the parts you need to).
    Well, first, we have the initial TCM of the planet (before anyone claimed it) as well as the initial HP (the HP before anyone claimed it - which should be stored separately from the HP before combat started) and we can use those to figured out if a planet has been bombarded to death. I'm thinking that once the difference between the initial HP and the pre-combat HP has shrunk to maybe 20% of the pre-combat difference or the TCM drops below the initial level.
     

    CyberTao

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    Well, first, we have the initial TCM of the planet (before anyone claimed it) as well as the initial HP (the HP before anyone claimed it - which should be stored separately from the HP before combat started) and we can use those to figured out if a planet has been bombarded to death. I'm thinking that once the difference between the initial HP and the pre-combat HP has shrunk to maybe 20% of the pre-combat difference or the TCM drops below the initial level.
    All I know is I don't want planets to be destroyed outright because someone could not be bothered attacking the turrets and such. There is also making sure that planets aren't just whittled down to nothing overtime. I don't know, depends on the future uses for planets.
     
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    All I know is I don't want planets to be destroyed outright because someone could not be bothered attacking the turrets and such. There is also making sure that planets aren't just whittled down to nothing overtime. I don't know, depends on the future uses for planets.
    Well, as long as the capture system works for other bases, it might be easier to capture the base than destroy it.

    As for how the capture system would work, I'm thinking maybe just a bubble - or rather, the players need to get within a certain distance of the faction block, determined by the size and mass of the station. Except that seems a bit easy.
     

    Winterhome

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    Well, as long as the capture system works for other bases, it might be easier to capture the base than destroy it.

    As for how the capture system would work, I'm thinking maybe just a bubble - or rather, the players need to get within a certain distance of the faction block, determined by the size and mass of the station. Except that seems a bit easy.
    How about sending a notification to a faction whenever their base is under attack, and giving them a notification any time an asset is being captured?

    A sufficiently long capture timer for defenders to arrive and prevent it from happening should do the trick.
     
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    It was my understanding that homebase invincibility was a temporary thing until more of the game could be fleshed out. (Yes, I'm looking at you, permission module.)

    To be honest, I'm not too sure how much we're considering the planned features and how they'll affect this issue. I'll try to see if I can list off some, and how they'll do this, and then come back to integrate them.
    • FP System: I believe I heard one of the Schine staff (not sure if it as Calbiri or Schema) talk about what they want to do with this a while ago. When the quest(right name?) system comes along with the improved trade guild functionality, FP will be used as currency for these as well as bartering with other factions. This adds more incentive to use faction points, and thus you'll be more likely to run negative.
    • Improved faction permissions: A glaring issue right now, is that the current permission module isn't specific. A big reason that faction admission is low is because there isn't much control on the inside. You have to worry that any new recruits might be trolls and will wreck your station. It doesn't really allow for tiers of trust, because you can't control specific parts of your structure permissions. Improving this will (likely) lead to higher faction populations, and therefore more activity.
    • HP/Armor System: I'm going to take a reasonable guess that this will make your stations a bit more resilient to weapons, which means that they are better defended. This will prolong the time it takes to destroy armored stations, and make battles more pronounced.
    • Shipyards: This means that you can automate your ship-building, and will no longer have to sift through your storage modules every time you need a new ship.
    • Warp prevention: Players can be prevented from jumping away when this is implemented, which will make fights more meaningful. When you come to fight, you come to fight.
    • Thrust/Mass mechanic changes: Hopefully this will decrease viability for titans, but we will see.

    These cover a few core issues with factions and combat right now. Here is a way to change the current system, while keeping in mind what will be added.

    Once FP becomes a more meaningful resource, factions will be spending it, which will affect the budget. I do agree that the current method of FP generation needs to be changed however, because I don't think this will make enough of a dent. I propose that FP is also affected by the amount of ships a faction owns, and the mass(?) of stations claimed. Of course, this will also scale with the kind of ship, so that capitals aren't treated the same as fighters. That will need to be discussed here however, as I'm unsure how the classification should be done. The reason I say mass of stations claimed is because I think that size should be taken into account when determining the FP deduction. Docked ships count toward this, so that you can't just keep your ships unfactioned and docked to be safe.​

    When the better permissions system comes into play, we'll have better control over the faction members, which lowers the risks of recruiting new people. This bolsters faction activity, and means that faction battles shouldn't be as short.

    Hopefully rails can be incorporated into shipyards, because that would ease the automation process with magrails. But even if they aren't, shipyards allow for ship production through factories and lets the player continue to focus elsewhere. It also opens up the opportunity for shipyard factions to produce ships onsite, instead of just designing them. That will open up a niche for smaller factions who just want their blueprints made in a safe area, at a cost.

    The HP and Armor system will make stations more valuable posts for factions to have, and be more stronghold-y. At the very least, it will increase the amount of damage needed to destroy them. This opens up the possibility for sieges, as it would make more sense to capture stations and use them as outposts in your ongoing wars.

    Now comes the ship/combat overhaul that is needed. With the thrust/mass mechanics changes, hopefully alongside other nerfs to larger ships, battles won't be as risky. You won't lose your supertitan in a skirmish, you'll lose a cruiser. Factions can now use more ships in their fight against others. You can be prevented from warping away, so coordinated strikes are better than rando-raids. I'd also shoot for some other change, I can't remember what it was, that prevented core-drilling. That needs to stop.

    Pirates are supposed to scale in difficulty outwards from the galactic center. This will make living on the edges more dangerous, and will hopefully lower the amount of people living out there, or those who leave right away.

    The last thing I can think of that's needed most is an actual reason to maintain presence in multiple systems. I think that an economy overhaul is needed for that, kinda like what is proposed in keptick's analysis thread (yes I know it's been pointed to a bunch, but it's the best I've seen to do this).
    http://starmadedock.net/threads/an-...n-interactions-and-resource-acquisition.4613/
    With this in place, it will be more viable for factions to stay in multiple areas at once, which can incur a high FP loss if they get attacked.
    This is kinda as far as I got at the moment, I'm a bit burned out. Please tell me if the planned features were misinterpreted, and add feedback. Please note however, that this is supposed to supplement what has been proposed, not replace it with what we already know.
    End of the wall.
     
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    How about sending a notification to a faction whenever their base is under attack, and giving them a notification any time an asset is being captured?

    A sufficiently long capture timer for defenders to arrive and prevent it from happening should do the trick.
    Absolutely not. You want the defenders to be able to react even if they just went to bed and won't be logging in until after they get home from work. So if you have a period where the attackers have to stay in/near the base for a day or more, you're telling them not to play the game for that long. So you want a "siege" time where the attackers can go elsewhere and do other things, while the defenders can respond.
     

    alterintel

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    So here are my Ideas

    Invulnerability:
    1) Instead of Faction home-base invulnerability, we get personal home-base invulnerability
    2) Maybe make a “Personal Invulnerability” block, that needs a signature.
    3) Acts like a faction block in that other players wont have permissions.
    3) Personal invulnerability should be limited by size/mass (including docked ships)
    4) You can only activate one Personal Invulnerability block at a time.
    5) If you use a faction block to claim the system, it will cancel personal invulnerability.


    So how to encourage factions:
    1) Factions get a percentage of mined blocks in that system.
    a) If you mine in somebody else’s system, the owning faction gets ore from the faction mining bonus.
    b) A storage block should be linked to the faction block to receive the ore.
    2) Factions gets a percentage of shop purchases. (like a tax)
    a) This would require some kind faction bank account.
    3) Factions get a percentage of salvage. (linked storage block)

    How to protect your Faction Base(s):
    1) Well hopefully AI turrets get better?
    2) The more members you have, the better chance somebody will be online to defend the base.
    3) Set up automated emails?

    How to take over a claimed system:
    1) Scanners should be able to see the direction of the faction block claiming the system.
    2) Faction blocks should only have 1 hit point.
    3) Once the faction block is destroyed, replace it with your own faction block.

    Oh, and P.S. No faction points necessary.
    also added benefit of encouraging players to defend miners.

    Thoughts?
     
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    I'm gonna use slightly modified or outright plagarise some of you to address a different aspect of PvP and PvE.

    Three types of factions
    1) combat/ aggressive
    2) explorers, mappers (explained later)
    3) producers/miners

    Combat factions are factions interested in fighting other factions, claiming space, and dominating a server. They primarily fly weaponized ships and are aggressive towards players not allied with them.

    Explorer/mapping factions explore space and map systems. If implemented, a navigation block could record stations, bases, and ships in a given system/sector. This would allow player-made stations and warp gates to be taken off the galaxy map. The map of systems could then be sold to combat and salvager factions.

    Salvager/producer factions produce ships by building shipyards and mining. They sell blueprints and resources in direct competition with each other. Resources are gathered by stripping destroyed ships during/after battles and exploring.

    In essence, combat factions are modern factions in SM, and they rely upon scouting ships/neutral explorers and salvagers for materials and ships, while explorers rely on combat factions to fund their expeditions, and on salvagers for funds, materials, and ships. The salvagers rely upon resources collected from battles of the combat factions, maps of resource-heavy areas from the explorers, and themselves to produce ships. All types of factions can own navigation blocks, or a shipyard, but the factions specialize in exploring or producing goods.

    To conclude for those of you who saw a wall and didn't read, factions will be specialized, though not only that, and will rely upon each other, forging complex relationships and increasing immersiveness. Also, stations that are player built, blueprinted will not appear upon the galaxy map, forcing better planning/strategy for those who plan raids and battles.
     
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    I'm gonna use slightly modified or outright plagarise some of you to address a different aspect of PvP and PvE.

    Three types of factions
    1) combat/ aggressive
    2) explorers, mappers (explained later)
    3) producers/miners

    Combat factions are factions interested in fighting other factions, claiming space, and dominating a server. They primarily fly weaponized ships and are aggressive towards players not allied with them.

    Explorer/mapping factions explore space and map systems. If implemented, a navigation block could record stations, bases, and ships in a given system/sector. This would allow player-made stations and warp gates to be taken off the galaxy map. The map of systems could then be sold to combat and salvager factions.

    Salvager/producer factions produce ships by building shipyards and mining. They sell blueprints and resources in direct competition with each other. Resources are gathered by stripping destroyed ships during/after battles and exploring.

    In essence, combat factions are modern factions in SM, and they rely upon scouting ships/neutral explorers and salvagers for materials and ships, while explorers rely on combat factions to fund their expeditions, and on salvagers for funds, materials, and ships. The salvagers rely upon resources collected from battles of the combat factions, maps of resource-heavy areas from the explorers, and themselves to produce ships. All types of factions can own navigation blocks, or a shipyard, but the factions specialize in exploring or producing goods.

    To conclude for those of you who saw a wall and didn't read, factions will be specialized, though not only that, and will rely upon each other, forging complex relationships and increasing immersiveness. Also, stations that are player built, blueprinted will not appear upon the galaxy map, forcing better planning/strategy for those who plan raids and battles.
    This is a much more well thought out concept of my faction specialization, though I'd like to propose that the non-combative factions have invincible home bases as they are now, and combative factions base is not, though they're the only faction that can use "support stations". these stations would be build and provide bonuses to the factions home base, such as passive block healing over time, 10x shield capacity, shield regen applies constantly, you cant warp into the sector, double damage for all attached turrets, or whatever other effects. These would have to be linked to the home base somehow (maybe involving marker beam?) and can make it like 99% invincible, but a really really good titan can crack it with all the buffs. Also, maybe non-combative factions deal less damage than a combative faction to player controlled entities, though normal damage to NPC's?
     
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    This is a much more well thought out concept of my faction specialization, though I'd like to propose that the non-combative factions have invincible home bases as they are now, and combative factions base is not, though they're the only faction that can use "support stations". these stations would be build and provide bonuses to the factions home base, such as passive block healing over time, 10x shield capacity, shield regen applies constantly, you cant warp into the sector, double damage for all attached turrets, or whatever other effects. These would have to be linked to the home base somehow (maybe involving marker beam?) and can make it like 99% invincible, but a really really good titan can crack it with all the buffs. Also, maybe non-combative factions deal less damage than a combative faction to player controlled entities, though normal damage to NPC's?
    I agree with invincibility, and normal damage to NPCs, and also would suggest firing upon a player and damaging a block on their ship/station could be considered an act of war, revoking non-combat status and invincibility on their home base. Why I say damaging a block or a player is because that would have to be deliberate or a huge malfunction