Feedback: New docking.

[RoyalWolfe]

Well I took some time to do a little looking at the new docking system. So far its all mostly a positive light. I love everything about the new system, and its only developing in a good direction for the future.

However I think I am doing something others clearly are not. and that is looking at both the old and the new docking together. I like the idea of having more options to make things work together, to achieve one goal.

I'm also comparing the two with each other. I have noticed some rather interesting things on them both. I discussed this in other threads and was argued with to no useful resolution. I have asked why cant we keep both sets of docking as options?

Every time I even bring this up somebody gets all pissed off about it, saying I need to shut up. my response is simple, fighting isn't going to help the problems, so you need to shut it and listen.

Why would we want to keep the old docking, well lets discuss that exactly by comparing the two. The old docking blocks will work with the logic system, as a toggle that can dock and then undock on command. using a simple activator block linked directly to it, it works fine as a quick launch system. Currently the rail docker does not have this function. In fact, It actually cant, and likely because of how it works, it never will, and if you will let me explain why you will see why keeping both is a good idea.

Because the rail docking works in a way that it has to be activated from a core, It doesn't allow it to link with logic between entities at all. (I realize it was mentioned it will eventually, in the future, but IT'S NOT HERE YET so shut it!) It is activated on the docking entity, and not the dock itself, via the core. this is a problem.

What this means, is that you cant link the rails to logic in any way that would allow it to be used to launch drones. Once its docked directly to the rail, it has to be undocked from the drones core. So now, I cant make several of them, then mount them on a rack and just click a button and undock all my drones at once. The rails simply do not work this way, and cant even with the proposed wireless logic that is coming. its a design flaw that seems to be a problem.

But, if we keep the old system, and mount that on the rail, well then both systems now work together to do the same job, but lets us move the dock. this will work together to do things you never could before. like a fighter hanger that extends on a rail and lets us drop fighters with a button press. and that you could do without even getting in the fighter.

 

[CyberTao]

So the problem is the lack of a 'fixed docking module' that allows people to undock ships with a logic toggle? To be completely honest, I expect that functionality to be added in some way shape or form, probably involving another block having to be adjacent to the rail that when toggled, tells nearby rails to eject (or you could just objects onto the block and they eject).

Bench already said there is a lot of Logic uses planned for rails (which are not yet added afaik), and the Rails aren't even out of the Dev Build yet, so I'd think it's safe to assume they are still working on adding parts/functions. It is in the alpha state of an alpha game afterall.

 

[RoyalWolfe]

I'm glad someone is taking this with a sense of humor. I hope that means I can finally say the following.

I'm not saying it can't get phased out at all, scheema said that is exactly the plan. He also said it wont happen till it can! I'm just saying that right now as it works it could go to release, as it is right now! the bugs are at least bearable and negligible enough that it would work together with the old system, so adding in those other things could happen when they are ready. For now its stable, I'm not saying do it now, just suggesting that removing it can be done later in ways that the old dockers could negate the need for those new option later anyway, we cant know till it actually happens.

I'm merely presenting scheema the option to buy his time getting the new council up and working.

 

[Megacrafter127]

I'm merely presenting scheema the option to buy his time getting the new council up and working.

From what I know schema, and the team actively making/editing the game's resources and code, is not involved with the council until it is officially elected.
But I am only nitpicking here.

 

[Bench]

Schema doesn't have any involvement in the council during this election period.

Thanks for sharing your concerns RoyalWolfe, the features you're describing here are definitely features we're looking to keep in the new docking system as well. Most likely they'll be functions added into the rail docker (TBC though)

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

You are not the only one looking at the new docking in terms of what we lose when the old docks are phased out

http://starmadedock.net/threads/docking-should-be-split-rails-turret-fixed.6895/

Among not being able to launch ships with logic we cannot create universal docking platforms as every ship needs a point to point dock. Ships with high centers, turrets on the belly or any kind of plex door based landing gear cannot even land on a flat platform. Ships that have their rail docker shot off will have to be manually repaired before they can ever dock again.

 

[starhaiden]

What we can do is wait until the rail system is released then after a while we will be able to tell if the current docking system is useful or not.

 

[plazmasoul]

Knowing me im either posting this on the wrong forum or about to say something clearly stupid but I was wondering if there were plans for a block that could be placed at the end of a rail system to make it so that when a ship reaches that block it would undock it. im sure you could do this with logic but it would be nice to have something along the lines of a "Rail Ejector"

 

[Sven_The_Slayer]

Knowing me im either posting this on the wrong forum or about to say something clearly stupid but I was wondering if there were plans for a block that could be placed at the end of a rail system to make it so that when a ship reaches that block it would undock it. im sure you could do this with logic but it would be nice to have something along the lines of a "Rail Ejector"

I still firmly believe we need a fixed docking block to give us some of the functionality we will lose once the old system is discontinued. Rails could set up to pass docked entities to the fixed dock to be launched with logic.

 

[RoyalWolfe]

I still firmly believe we need a fixed docking block to give us some of the functionality we will lose once the old system is discontinued. Rails could set up to pass docked entities to the fixed dock to be launched with logic.

this I have to agree with. A fixed dock is needed. the rails are fine for moving things around, but we just want something to lock on in one place. this one docking point one block that just docks and undocks. . . . . and just so the point doesn't go ungrounded PERIOD .... ..... you get it yet? period. OK.

 

[Lancake]

Hm, as far as I know, it should be possible to implement remote undocking without introducing a new block in the game.

(activators can be replaced by buttons in all mentioned examples)
Currently we have:
Activator + nearby rail -> linked with rail = sets rail rotation and triggers rotation if it is a rotater block.
Rail -> linked with activators/buttons/any signal = sets rotation speed/angle per cycle
Activator -> next to a rail = gives true signal if something is moved on that rail.

Activator (not touching any rail block) -> linked with rail = ?
This could possibly be the one that triggers the undock.

Also, I find your original post a little hostile RoyalWolfe, I get your point but you're upset that they tell you to "shut it" while you just did the same to us...twice...after mentioning "fighting isn't going to help the problems", would be nice if you don't do that.

Edit: so I think that should cover it right? There would not be a valid reason to keep the old docking system.

 

[Thalanor]

You are not the only one looking at the new docking in terms of what we lose when the old docks are phased out

http://starmadedock.net/threads/docking-should-be-split-rails-turret-fixed.6895/

Among not being able to launch ships with logic we cannot create universal docking platforms as every ship needs a point to point dock. Ships with high centers, turrets on the belly or any kind of plex door based landing gear cannot even land on a flat platform. Ships that have their rail docker shot off will have to be manually repaired before they can ever dock again.

That is not necessarily bad though. Landing platforms are made for fighters and attack craft; larger ships are usually seen docked to the side of a catwalk or similar in SciFi for a reason. Maybe with rails, we can even put docking ports on extendable/retractable parts of the ship (pure speculation).

 

[RoyalWolfe]

Thanks for sharing your concerns RoyalWolfe, the features you're describing here are definitely features we're looking to keep in the new docking system as well. Most likely they'll be functions added into the rail docker (TBC though)

thanks for this information, and I feel a little less worried thanks to the way I've seen thing going in the latest dev build. However, please consider adding in a fixed non moving dock device which is compatible to the rail docker, if this is done, then you can rename the "Rail Docker" to just simply "Docker" and this would let us design standard docks again without the need to completely start over and redesign all our ships from scratch.

At the same time this would also let us then experiment with the rails to create separate Core entity types. see now that the rails require a core for each new docked entity, you have accidentally made the core valuable in ways it never was before. now they are the heart of entities, which means if destroyed they cease to exist. so now a ship core is the movable entity type.

this opens the possibility to make some new ones that interact in new ways. turrets are now a complex entity made of several core driven parts, that means now we need the Bobby AI module, in order to work properly, it needs to link to multiple cores and recognize this fact. there are in my theory two ways of doing that with the new wireless logic.

one method, is the proposed above linking of multiple cores into the bobby module which makes it recognize this one collection of cores is a single turret. this would be a rather ideal method, as it allows us to then maybe set turrets as an entity type and target them specifically rather than just the core's of the mother ships or stations. also if this were done, in a way that doing so links the cores together, it means the bobby module is now targeted by the navigation menu rather than the linked cores. So you could destroy the module, and the entire turret suddenly ceases to function as an AI. basically you just killed its brain.

the other method, is a new block all together, a Turret Core. a new core type which counts as a complex entity. it would achieve the same targeting ability, but now would work in a way that allows it to be manually manned from outside its core, as it would need to then link to the main core of its parent entity. but that may need more work and loads more programing to make work than the above.

 

[EricBlank]

That is not necessarily bad though. Landing platforms are made for fighters and attack craft; larger ships are usually seen docked to the side of a catwalk or similar in SciFi for a reason. Maybe with rails, we can even put docking ports on extendable/retractable parts of the ship (pure speculation).

I'm actually thinking about using that method. I would install a gravity lift elevator for personnel transfer that extends from the station/mothership to link to smaller craft. Could probably get more advanced and use a rail elevator inside the docking tube for transferring objects, but a gravity elevator works fine for personnel.

One could additionally have ventral turrets and the like retract into the hull, if you have the space. That would allow craft with ventral appendages to dock to a flat surface.


I have one stupid nitpick of my own:
With the new turret system, you're linking multiple entities together. Doing so causes a lot more core signature spam on the screen, because each turret is now composed of at least two entities. There's just going to be more and more individual entities for the game to keep track of, all doing their own things. Won't this eventually hurt game performance?

Here, this kinda works:

Not fully optimized for logic and that docking tube doesnt actually have a gravity lift, but hey, something else could dock to this, or this to something else. Now making it hermaphroditic rather than exclusively male/female and always line up correctly is something I need to set to work on. Both the turret and docking tube are covered by a blast door when retracted, and that door can technically be shut with them extended, they just can't be retracted until it is opened again due to the collision.