You could learn from Notch

    Joined
    Dec 14, 2014
    Messages
    745
    Reaction score
    158
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    I can't count the number of times stuff was made in minecraft no one ever expected.
    Did Notch get upset and try to nerf it. In most cases no. Very little nerfing was done simply because someone made use of something.
    Was it originally intended for people to build computers in the game or play entire musical songs or build auto farms ... the answer is no.
    Instead of getting upset and saying this isn't what was intended they embraced it and worked to make it a part of the game. That is the personality of how innovation was handled there.

    Can you say that about here?
     
    Last edited:
    Joined
    Sep 4, 2013
    Messages
    1,317
    Reaction score
    185
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 3
    Learning from notch?

    K

    Schine plz sell starmad to microsoft, kthksbai
     

    Reilly Reese

    #1 Top Forum Poster & Raiben Jackpot Winner
    Joined
    Oct 13, 2013
    Messages
    5,140
    Reaction score
    1,365
    • Legacy Citizen 8
    • Thinking Positive
    • Purchased!
    I can't count the number of times stuff was made in minecraft no one ever expected.
    Did Notch get upset and try to nerf it. In most cases no. Very little nerfing was done simply because someone made use of something.
    Was it originally intended for people to build computers in the game or play entire musical songs or build auto farms ... the answer is no.
    Instead of getting upset and saying this isn't what was intended they embraced it and worked to make it a part of the game. That is the personality of how innovation was handled there.

    Can you say that about here?
     
    Joined
    Dec 14, 2014
    Messages
    745
    Reaction score
    158
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    Learning from notch?

    K

    Schine plz sell starmad to microsoft, kthksbai
    You know what that would be a good learning process for them.
    Please talk to MS about selling the game. Expect to provide them a list of records showing issues in the game the time spent adding new content vs resolving those issues. They will want to see the manor in which you dealt with issues or how you solved the problem. They will look at what types of complaints came back from people about how you resolved the issue. They will look at what types of issues where generated from your solution. How often the type of problem and manor you solved them reoccur.
    This tells them how much you looked at how your solution will effect stuff before hand and if you have had a habit of repeated issues and so on. After all they want a turn over period if they decide the product is worth while so they can clean up any current issues. The habits they got here will go over real well.

    Hope that is clearer.
     
    Last edited:

    The Judge

    Kill me please
    Joined
    Aug 12, 2014
    Messages
    409
    Reaction score
    176
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 3
    Everything about Minecraft doesn't apply to Starmade just because the two both use Blocks and are in Java. Balancing for Starmade is a lot more complex than you'd think, especially compared to Minecraft.
     

    nightrune

    Wizard/Developer/Project Manager
    Joined
    May 11, 2015
    Messages
    1,324
    Reaction score
    577
    • Schine
    • Top Forum Contributor
    • Thinking Positive
    Was it originally intended for people to build computers in the game or play entire musical songs or build auto farms ... the answer is no
    Did either of those things destroy other players work? Were any of those creations destroyed by another player that was bored and flew over, destroying work the receiving player didn't want?

    Balance, when viewed from combat, in Minecraft was about how big TNT exploded, fire spread, and how powerful the armors were. Compared to Starmade's power, shields, armor, weapons, environmental damage. Of course they will be changing and removing it. Its way more complex then Minecraft, and balance really matters.

    So yes, the many failed attempts to remove things that don't balance may seem bad, but that's actually the innovation you are championing. You keep trying things, observing, thinking, until you find the right solution. Power 1 sucked, it was blobs, power 2 is reactor lines, it was a bit better but came with its own issues, power 3 may do it, maybe it won't. Schine seems determined to make it better though.

    To that end though, I love seeing the things people come up with. Some of them are so cool and clever it's amazing. If it causes other players problems though, the game has suddenly hit a balance issue and it needs resolved. On the other hand, if everyone needs the new innovation, it's time to make it more performant, easier, and just part of the game.
     

    Valiant70

    That crazy cyborg
    Joined
    Oct 27, 2013
    Messages
    2,189
    Reaction score
    1,167
    • Thinking Positive
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    I can't count the number of times stuff was made in minecraft no one ever expected.
    Did Notch get upset and try to nerf it. In most cases no. Very little nerfing was done simply because someone made use of something.
    Was it originally intended for people to build computers in the game or play entire musical songs or build auto farms ... the answer is no.
    Instead of getting upset and saying this isn't what was intended they embraced it and worked to make it a part of the game. That is the personality of how innovation was handled there.

    Can you say that about here?
    While this might sound like a good observation at first glance (or not, in the case of many folks), there is a glaring problem. Minecraft's player-vs-player combat is not largely affected by the contraptions people build. In Minecraft, we fight with swords, bows, armor, and enchanted versions of the same. In Starmade, our machines ARE our weapons and armor.

    In Minecraft, the most direct effect that technology/redstone/industry has on PVP is that it allows players to produce arms, armor, and enchantments more efficiently, gaining an advantage over others in a shorter period of time. The equivalent in Starmade would be if we all used basically the same types and sizes of ships with different defensive effects and weapons, and our innovation were limited to how fast we could make more ships with good weapons/effects.

    So you see balancing the two games is entirely different. In Minecraft, machines make stuff to kill people with. In Starmade, the machines themselves kill people. Starmade's technological balance is more immediately critical to combat, and a single exploit can potentially break most of the game.
     
    Joined
    Jun 17, 2015
    Messages
    300
    Reaction score
    90
    Large companies usually don't innovate like this because its a rough process. There is no way to assure the desired result no matter how smart you are. Starmade is trying many things together that have never been done before. It doesn't surprise me that this game is a lot of trial and error as far as features go. Schema himself is young so he's learning too while he's making the game.

    As far as fixing exploits go I have a simple rule that I follow. If the exploit adds something new to the game that's fine. If the exploit overrides a limitation that I have explicitly put on the player,then it is hard for me to keep it as a mechanic. This is especially true if the bug has no trade off for the player. It makes it an unavoidable mechanic for top level play.

    I think we should just stick to talking about the mechanics themselves instead of trying to argue for exploits in a general sense.
     
    Joined
    Dec 14, 2014
    Messages
    745
    Reaction score
    158
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    While this might sound like a good observation at first glance (or not, in the case of many folks), there is a glaring problem. Minecraft's player-vs-player combat is not largely affected by the contraptions people build. In Minecraft, we fight with swords, bows, armor, and enchanted versions of the same. In Starmade, our machines ARE our weapons and armor.

    In Minecraft, the most direct effect that technology/redstone/industry has on PVP is that it allows players to produce arms, armor, and enchantments more efficiently, gaining an advantage over others in a shorter period of time. The equivalent in Starmade would be if we all used basically the same types and sizes of ships with different defensive effects and weapons, and our innovation were limited to how fast we could make more ships with good weapons/effects.

    So you see balancing the two games is entirely different. In Minecraft, machines make stuff to kill people with. In Starmade, the machines themselves kill people. Starmade's technological balance is more immediately critical to combat, and a single exploit can potentially break most of the game.
    Fair assessment to a point. But how much easier is it for a person who builds automatic farms to get arrows, make potions, food, and so on that effect combat or even simply getting further in the game? How fast can someone hit you with 3
    Large companies usually don't innovate like this because its a rough process. There is no way to assure the desired result no matter how smart you are. Starmade is trying many things together that have never been done before. It doesn't surprise me that this game is a lot of trial and error as far as features go. Schema himself is young so he's learning too while he's making the game.

    As far as fixing exploits go I have a simple rule that I follow. If the exploit adds something new to the game that's fine. If the exploit overrides a limitation that I have explicitly put on the player,then it is hard for me to keep it as a mechanic. This is especially true if the bug has no trade off for the player. It makes it an unavoidable mechanic for top level play.

    I think we should just stick to talking about the mechanics themselves instead of trying to argue for exploits in a general sense.
    splash potions of harming 2?
    My point is there was a difference in the mentality of how they dealt with the issues. It probably goes back to why Notch created it to start with. He was trying to inspire creativity vs force people to play a game a specific way.

    More like they are trying to combine a lot of stuff together that has been used before just in a way that it wasn't combined before. This isn't the first voxel game or software that had moving objects even. Not even close. It isn't the first space game and so on.

    There are usually several reasons that limits are put in place. Like putting character level limits and skill limits and so on usually has more to do with trying to keep track of large numbers and will anyone actually ever make it to level 65,535 vs level 100... Level 100 also fits in a single byte being less than 255. In fact it is even nicer than that it is less than 127 meaning it can be used in an unsigned byte thus even easier to deal with negative effects when doing math and not having to typecast when doing the math.

    Then there are limits on stuff like the number of blocks mainly based on performance. There is a video out there it might be under he GDC or another group. It has to do why the mobile programming industry is good. Primarily dealing with teaching people how to write efficient and fast code using less to do more. It has to do with efficient programs do well in mobile because they use less battery vs poorly written code. A person can play a game that is written good for hours vs a poorly written game uses so much resources and CPU to do the same thing the battery goes dead in a short time. The simple fact is very few coders these days are good at efficiency vs those who learned to program on other low memory systems and so on. Something on the order of less than 10% of software made these days is optimized anything close to what it can be. Part of it has to do with coders who read other people's work try it and decide it works well enough, they simply use others code, they use libraries and tools like .net.

    Then you have limits like what we see here on the power system and other stuff. You could argue it was a size limitation but they could simply limit block count. That would have been easier and not broke anything. You can try and argue it is about balance but lets be real if everyone can do the same thing it has nothing to do with balance because that is already balanced. So what did it really have to do with. Well they were trying to enforce a false concept by trying to force an unnatural system to be order in the game that being that small was strong.
    Seriously, that was their excuse when given me. Cubed vs Square law was what they brought up.

    But I guess your argument is that the system was broke all along it just took me pointing out what could be done on these different things to get them to realize it. I guess that is a fair argument. 1) They built an upstream power connector and didn't plan on anyone making use of it to get more power. 2) They built a power transfer beam and didn't expect anyone to make use of that to get more power. Same with shield transfer. 3) They built rails and docks and allow mixed blocks to be put together even changed he bounding boxes from purely squares so they could fit together but never actually expected anyone to do that because that would just be silly.
    4) They allowed docked systems to have their own shielding which when it dropped below 50% it would pull from the primary shielding and they didn't expect anyone to make use of that also(distributive shielding) you know the one where I showed people you could split damage up over several shields and gain the recharge rate of the primary shield system to restore shields and recharge faster.

    Funny, how they build so much stuff and didn't ever expect anyone to actually make use of it. Who's fault is that? What level of failure is that?
    If we accept your line of thought it would be the same as if you handed a crack addict $20 not expecting them to try and score some dope with it. Then after they do you give them another $20 and keep the same expectation, and again and again.

    Frankly, I don't believe they are stupid like that. I think they simply got in a rut of using the same method to try and solve problems. Which is why I am trying to wake them up from it. Hell they went to the point the game is effectively broken because they broke the power supply simply to stop me and others from doing what I pointed out.

    But we can accept your idea but it is a damn lot more insulting to them than what I said if you think about it. You are essentially saying they did the same thing over again and it was because they where incapable of seeing the same issue multiple times ahead and just keep repeating the mistake. Where I am saying they got in a rut and need to be woke up from it.

    Yea, I'll admit I am an asshole from hell. It is my specialty. But at least I give them credit for intelligence than that. But who knows lets have them chime in and determine are they as ignorant as you implied or have they gotten in a rut using the same method to try and solve issues.
    Neither is a great thing one of them just implies being stupid though.
     

    Olxinos

    French fry. Caution: very salty!
    Joined
    May 7, 2015
    Messages
    151
    Reaction score
    88
    [...]You can try and argue it is about balance but lets be real if everyone can do the same thing it has nothing to do with balance because that is already balanced.[...]
    This is slightly off-topic, but I've seen that assumption/idea/... in several posts of yours, and in my opinion, you are misunderstanding or misusing balance here. This is something which ticks me off.
    You seem to think that in a competitive game, if each of the N player has about (100/N)% chances of winning, then the game is well-balanced. In practice however, such a property is almost completely uninteresting because it always hold true as long as the game is perfectly symmetrical (when you introduce asymmetrical elements, the simplest of which being a designated first player, it may be nice to have but it is neither a necessary nor sufficient condition for players to feel and think that the game is well-balanced in general). When people talk about balance, they are mostly using it in a broader sense. I, for instance, would say a game is well-balanced only if no strategy could be cut off the game without altering its Nash equilibria (in other words: if there are useless strategies, then the game isn't well-balanced).

    I'll try to explain why this meaning makes more sense to me, let's take a simplistic theoretical game :
    +--+-----+----+
    |.....|.C....|..D..|
    +--+-----+----+
    |.A.|0/0..|1/-1|
    +--+-----+----+
    |.B.|-1/1..|1/-1|
    +--+-----+----+
    There is a single nash equilibrium here: (A,C) which basically puts both players on an equal footing (none of them loose anything, none of them gain anything). If I were to follow your meaning of balance, this game is balanced for that very reason : no one wins, no one loses.
    I think this definition is flawed because I think that "balance" should also reflect the "balance between strategies", and in that game, strategies B and D are utterly useless. In fact that game might as well be :
    +--+-----+
    |.....|.C....|
    +--+-----+
    |.A.|0/0..|
    +--+-----+
    And that means that the game developer failed to add interesting strategies to the game.
    (Of course, if each player must choose a strategy, the game might be well-balanced, but also severely lacking in depth.)
    Now, sometimes, some strategies overshadow others and render them useless, for that reason, they must either be removed, "nerfed" or the overshadowed ones must be "buffed" (which can lead to other problems, mostly snowballing into "power creep")


    Now, let's go back to the topic.
    [...]Funny, how they build so much stuff and didn't ever expect anyone to actually make use of it. Who's fault is that? What level of failure is that?
    If we accept your line of thought it would be the same as if you handed a crack addict $20 not expecting them to try and score some dope with it. Then after they do you give them another $20 and keep the same expectation, and again and again.[...]
    I think there's another misconception here. The game is an alpha, which basically means they are still deciding the details of their mechanics. This is typically done by quickly implementing mechanics, checking whether the mechanics work (using their community as testers), and tweaking, nerfing, buffing, or downright removing them as needed. (edit: bold and underlined fonts are not meant to be offensive, but to emphase what I think is important and you are missing)
    It's not a failure. Adding and removing things both belong to the process of game development, you can't blame them for removing mechanics if they deem they haven't fared as well as they thought or caused too many problems. You might blame them for the lengthy alpha though, but hey, making a game isn't exactly an easy and quick task.
    Your analogy doesn't work either : in your analogy you follow the exact same course of action, whereas when Schine implements new mechanics, those mechanics are too different to reliably predict whether players will be able to abuse them or not, and more importantly how they'll abuse them (even knowing whether previously implemented ones were abused or not).
    Not to mention that Mojang also fixed unintended bug/features (to the extent of my knowledge). I think when they did, they tried to compensate with new blocks offering similar features however, but Schine usually tries to do the same. For instance, when they "removed docked reactors" they also gave us power auxiliaries (and even if I don't like them very much, you gotta admit they're a good replacement).
     
    Last edited:

    Ithirahad

    Arana'Aethi
    Joined
    Nov 14, 2013
    Messages
    4,150
    Reaction score
    1,329
    • Purchased!
    • Top Forum Contributor
    • Legacy Citizen 8
    None of the unintended things you mentioned in Minecraft (nor any others I can think of, that weren't patched) made anyone overpowered or made anything significantly faster in the grand scheme of things (e.g. autofarms - crops take the exact same time to grow, it's just less annoying because you don't have to manage it all yourself). Also, the two games are very different. Minecraft's 'goal' at any given time is to survive and take on self-defined challenges (and maybe kill the Wither and Enderdragon if that's your kinda thing, but nothing forces you to). PvP is generally secondary and only done so that you can take someone's resources. Block-built structures are static and usually have little to no combat value, so many servers use plugins to protect them from griefing (whereas in StarMade destruction of structures is a necessary part of warfare).

    Patching 'exploits' due to game mechanics is not nearly as important in MC, in general, as they don't even qualify as exploits there in most cases. Also, computers and note block songs and the like were almost certainly expected by Notch. If you add logic gates, and he did, on purpose, inevitably someone will make a computer. If you add note blocks, someone is going to scale them up and make songs with them. None of these are even 'unintended features.'
     

    Lone_Puppy

    Me, myself and I.
    Joined
    Mar 12, 2015
    Messages
    1,274
    Reaction score
    529
    • Purchased!
    • Community Content - Bronze 2
    • Legacy Citizen 8
    I've only toyed with Minecraft, so I could be completely wrong here and appologise in advance.
    But isn't Minecraft functionally wise more in line with a station in Starmade?
    Where as Starmade is an entire universe with I don't know how many millions or potential billions of stations.
    Plus the game is making calculations that Minecraft never has to do like referencing celestial objects relative to each other on an omnidirectional universal scale as opposed to a box with gravity.
     

    Valiant70

    That crazy cyborg
    Joined
    Oct 27, 2013
    Messages
    2,189
    Reaction score
    1,167
    • Thinking Positive
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    I've only toyed with Minecraft, so I could be completely wrong here and appologise in advance.
    But isn't Minecraft functionally wise more in line with a station in Starmade?
    Where as Starmade is an entire universe with I don't know how many millions or potential billions of stations.
    Plus the game is making calculations that Minecraft never has to do like referencing celestial objects relative to each other on an omnidirectional universal scale as opposed to a box with gravity.
    That's a pretty accurate statement, although the Minecraft world is not completely loaded all the time and a space station is even if it isn't all rendered client side.
     
    Joined
    Nov 1, 2014
    Messages
    317
    Reaction score
    98
    • Legacy Citizen
    • Purchased!
    I played Minecraft heavily in the Alpha/Beta days. It was frankly a terrible, buggy mess until Notch freed himself from it.
     
    Joined
    Dec 14, 2014
    Messages
    745
    Reaction score
    158
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    I've only toyed with Minecraft, so I could be completely wrong here and appologise in advance.
    But isn't Minecraft functionally wise more in line with a station in Starmade?
    Where as Starmade is an entire universe with I don't know how many millions or potential billions of stations.
    Plus the game is making calculations that Minecraft never has to do like referencing celestial objects relative to each other on an omnidirectional universal scale as opposed to a box with gravity.
    Minecraft virtually extends out the same way starmade does as far as the number system allows in the computer.
    Starmade doesn't actually make that many celestial calculations at all.
    The game is built on a plain made of cubes. Planets don't actually move they are stationary. They do rotate if you are with in their influence distance. If you are out beyond that they don't other than for the person that may be on it. In general when you get out past a certain point they display a Dodecahedron with a texture on it and it doesn't rotate.
    View perspective is no more complicated than most games.
    When in space you are given everything is translated to a position relative to you in the viewport. How much frustum culling he does or doesn't do is another issue. That means removing objects not inside the view cone. Then backface culling and so on. In short any surface facing away from the viewer is removed. With opengl 3.3 and above you create your objects dump them in a buffer and they remain on your video card. You simply pass it the transformation information and do your work on the video card. That changes if your object changes such as you remove a block then you change the mesh sent to the video card and redisplay it.
    If you want to learn a bit about it.
    There are plenty of other free tutorials those are meant to get people started and setup.