What actually failed in Starmade - if you care to listen.

    OfficialCoding

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    it doesnt matter how much advertising you do when any new players first impression of the game is this
    [doublepost=1559343463,1559342623][/doublepost]
    the game didnt only die from a lack of content, a player base can make content in a sandbox

    what a player base cant fix is broken game mechanics

    p2 and w3 both killed the game, as they took the old mechanics from p1 and turned them into piles of garbage. starmade has always had tons of bugs and has always had a lack of content, but what kept people around was the fact that it had the most solid building and engineering of any game of its type. no other similar game comes close to what you could do with starmade.
    p2 and w3 threw those mechanics away
    they replaced countless hours of engineering and optimization with a few blobs and some bad menus
    they replaced tons of variability in what was effective with a boring meta any idiot could master in 30 seconds
    they replaced solid mechanics with garbage
    will the universe update fix any of this? no
    will advertising fix any of this? no
    you can go on thinking that all starmade needs is extra fluff to save it, but if the base mechanics stay the way they are, this game will never have a player base again
    lol let's dissect this.
    what a player base cant fix is broken game mechanics
    Yeah it's called "The game is still in alpha and it has 1 coder and he's actively working on fixes for these issues"
    p2 and w3 both killed the game, as they took the old mechanics from p1 and turned them into piles of garbage. starmade has always had tons of bugs and has always had a lack of content, but what kept people around was the fact that it had the most solid building and engineering of any game of its type. no other similar game comes close to what you could do with starmade.
    Nah, I've talked to a lot of players (inb4 they are a bunch of fanbois) and they like Power 2 a lot more than power 1. Power 2 is a lot simpler and at the same time adds more customization than Power 1 because reactor chambers, and it doesn't take a million spreadsheets to build a good ship.
    they replaced countless hours of engineering and optimization with a few blobs and some bad menus
    lol that's true, but you still have to engineer your ship, but instead of "how do I build this stupid complex reactor that's 999999 non-touching lines of reactors that's f*cking counter-intuitive" it's "How do I get these chambers I want in this really cramped space" and it's still engineering and it's a lot more fun and intuitive than Power 1.
    they replaced solid mechanics with garbage
    Like what? Scanners? Those are getting fixed in the Universe Update
    will the universe update fix any of this? no
    Yes. It will fix the game, whether you like it or not.
    will advertising fix any of this? no
    Advertising has nothing to do with it, advertising will get us a sizeable player base.
    you can go on thinking that all starmade needs is extra fluff to save it, but if the base mechanics stay the way they are, this game will never have a player base again
    Your right, Extra fluff on it's own won't save Starmade but that's not all the universe update is. Also Base mechanics work just fine atm, so your argument doesn't hold water.
     
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    Power 2 is a lot simpler and at the same time adds more customization than Power 1 because reactor chambers, and it doesn't take a million spreadsheets to build a good ship.
    You literally stated the exact opposite of what's actually the case.

    P1;
    Place reactor blocks in cross shapes if your ship is small; straight lines if it's big enough; don't let them touch each other. Reach 2kk pow gen, stop. Heap in as many Aux power blocks in 2kk sections as you want, where you want. Add any effects you like.

    P2;
    Place reactor blocks in a perfect cube shape or they get f***ed by integrity. Place stabilizer blocks as far as you can, as many as you need to reach 25% for maximum power output, use more if you want your ship to die slower, build more than one group in perfect simmetry if you want to reduce the distance, but all the values depend on each other so they all constantly change while you're building, sometimes not in the way you expected, try to wiggle the reactor stream around so it stays hidden.
    Do the exact spreadsheet calculations you claimed to be unnecessary to figure out which chambers at how high level your ship can support, decide which ones to abandon, look up the correct size they need to be, try to find room for them. Try to place them in a way two of the same type won't touch, or you'll get one chamber instead of two. Build conduits in a way that they ONLY touch what they need to touch or they won't work.
    Find out after building them that they are too small for the ship and draw too much power, so enlarge your reactor but your stabilizers are too close now, try to move them further and enlarge them as well but there's not much room left around the interior and they'll be f***ed by integrity as well. Then the larger reactor needs larger chambers, but there's no room to enlarge the existing ones because you had to be extra efficient to fit them in, so you rip everything out and start from the beginning with different proportions; Repeat as many times as necessary.
    Had fun with all that? Then why not build a second reactor with different effects so you can alternate between the two?

    Well, because A; That's never how it works and sounds stupid (you don't switch from the "fly faster reactor" to the "gimme more shields reactor" ; you reroute power from thrusters to shield generators, while simultanously using as many reactors as you want that's only job is providing power!) and B; how many more times do I need to say, there's no room?

    HOW is that " a lot simpler " ?
     
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    Aye, but it was. Plus some things still behave strangely. Looking at you, shield integrity warning........
     

    OfficialCoding

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    You literally stated the exact opposite of what's actually the case.

    P1;
    Place reactor blocks in cross shapes if your ship is small; straight lines if it's big enough; don't let them touch each other. Reach 2kk pow gen, stop. Heap in as many Aux power blocks in 2kk sections as you want, where you want. Add any effects you like.

    P2;
    Place reactor blocks in a perfect cube shape or they get f***ed by integrity. Place stabilizer blocks as far as you can, as many as you need to reach 25% for maximum power output, use more if you want your ship to die slower, build more than one group in perfect simmetry if you want to reduce the distance, but all the values depend on each other so they all constantly change while you're building, sometimes not in the way you expected, try to wiggle the reactor stream around so it stays hidden.
    Do the exact spreadsheet calculations you claimed to be unnecessary to figure out which chambers at how high level your ship can support, decide which ones to abandon, look up the correct size they need to be, try to find room for them. Try to place them in a way two of the same type won't touch, or you'll get one chamber instead of two. Build conduits in a way that they ONLY touch what they need to touch or they won't work.
    Find out after building them that they are too small for the ship and draw too much power, so enlarge your reactor but your stabilizers are too close now, try to move them further and enlarge them as well but there's not much room left around the interior and they'll be f***ed by integrity as well. Then the larger reactor needs larger chambers, but there's no room to enlarge the existing ones because you had to be extra efficient to fit them in, so you rip everything out and start from the beginning with different proportions; Repeat as many times as necessary.
    Had fun with all that? Then why not build a second reactor with different effects so you can alternate between the two?

    Well, because A; That's never how it works and sounds stupid (you don't switch from the "fly faster reactor" to the "gimme more shields reactor" ; you reroute power from thrusters to shield generators, while simultanously using as many reactors as you want that's only job is providing power!) and B; how many more times do I need to say, there's no room?

    HOW is that " a lot simpler " ?
    rofl this is so stupid. First off, Integ is dead and buried. Second off, git gud and build systems first. Third off, this argument is stupid.
     
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    StormWing0

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    Generally my rule of thump is build the systems first, than build the shell I want, than cram the systems into that space whether they want to fit or not. :)
     
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    One thing is certain. If you like it you will play it, if you don't then you won't. We all have opinions, and at the end of the day it (StarMade) will either gain in popularity or it won't, it will be here next year or it won't. Why debate about it? Make opinions and move it along is my thought process. (y)

    Although I admittedly would like to see P2 become less reliant on a vast number of stabilizers that always work best in the worst possible locations, but want in one hand and crap in the other, right? At least it was stated P2 needs tuning and will receive it. I just imagine that there is a laundry list of other things being done first.
     
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    Yeah it's called "The game is still in alpha and it has 1 coder and he's actively working on fixes for these issues"
    its been in alpha for 7 years, you dont get to use that excuse

    Nah, I've talked to a lot of players (inb4 they are a bunch of fanbois) and they like Power 2 a lot more than power 1. Power 2 is a lot simpler and at the same time adds more customization than Power 1 because reactor chambers, and it doesn't take a million spreadsheets to build a good ship.
    surprisingly when you only talk to the 1% of players still playing after people who hated p2 left, most people enjoy p2

    lol that's true, but you still have to engineer your ship, but instead of "how do I build this stupid complex reactor that's 999999 non-touching lines of reactors that's f*cking counter-intuitive" it's "How do I get these chambers I want in this really cramped space" and it's still engineering and it's a lot more fun and intuitive than Power 1.
    this just proves you have no idea what i mean by "engineering your ship"

    Like what? Scanners? Those are getting fixed in the Universe Update
    again proves you have no idea what im talking about

    Yes. It will fix the game, whether you like it or not.
    hurr durr if i say itll fix the game that means it will, right?

    Advertising has nothing to do with it, advertising will get us a sizeable player base.
    you said advertising will get starmade a playerbase, sadly that doesnt work when the game has been out for 7 years, is still in early access, and has mixed reviews on steam

    Your right, Extra fluff on it's own won't save Starmade but that's not all the universe update is. Also Base mechanics work just fine atm, so your argument doesn't hold water.
    if the base mechanics worked fine would so many people have left due to the base mechanics being broken?
     

    OfficialCoding

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    its been in alpha for 7 years, you dont get to use that excuse



    surprisingly when you only talk to the 1% of players still playing after people who hated p2 left, most people enjoy p2



    this just proves you have no idea what i mean by "engineering your ship"



    again proves you have no idea what im talking about



    hurr durr if i say itll fix the game that means it will, right?



    you said advertising will get starmade a playerbase, sadly that doesnt work when the game has been out for 7 years, is still in early access, and has mixed reviews on steam



    if the base mechanics worked fine would so many people have left due to the base mechanics being broken?
    This is where the fun begins lol.
    surprisingly when you only talk to the 1% of players still playing after people who hated p2 left, most people enjoy p2
    lol 1% is a bogus figure, and yeah nobody is forcing anybody to be here, if you want to leave, that's fine.
    this just proves you have no idea what i mean by "engineering your ship"
    Apparently I don't, but I know what it means to engineer a ship.
    again proves you have no idea what im talking about
    Maybe you should give examples instead of just spewing BS
    hurr durr if i say itll fix the game that means it will, right?
    hurr durr if i say it won't fix the game that means it won't, right? No, it doesn't. It means, LET SCHEMA FINISH THE UNIVERSE UPDATE!
    you said advertising will get starmade a playerbase, sadly that doesnt work when the game has been out for 7 years, is still in early access, and has mixed reviews on steam
    X
     
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    Seeing the kind of niche game SM is, I don't think Steam reviews will be a problem. If you're not the lambda "Steam normie" player (exactly not the player wanted in this game), you judge a game by yourself and take Steam reviews with some salt. Well, with a ton of salt.
     

    OfficialCoding

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    Seeing the kind of niche game SM is, I don't think Steam reviews will be a problem. If you're not the lambda "Steam normie" player (exactly not the player wanted in this game), you judge a game by yourself and take Steam reviews with some salt. Well, with a ton of salt.
    Yeah when i get a game on steam i don't even look at the reviews. I just get it and judge it for myself.
     
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    rofl this is so stupid. First off, Integ is dead and buried. Second off, git gud and build systems first. Third off, this argument is stupid.
    So you first post a false statement with no facts to back it up ( "P2.0 is simpler than P1.0" ), and when confronted with the difference between the two you reply like this.

    These are not the acts of an intelligent man, and in no way do they contribute to the betterment of the game or ourselves.

    Integrity was just one of the MANY things that complicated building, and to the best of my knowledge it's not COMPLETELY gone, and can be turned back on via some settings.

    As for building the systems first, that is not an option if you're building replicas, want proper interior, or don't want your creation to end up looking like a brick. I have specifically said those kind of vessels don't have that much problems with the P2.0 system - so you didn't say anything I didn't already know.
    Anyway, building systems first doesn't make you "Gud", it makes you unimaginitive.

    Lastly, there's still the combat aspect which screws you over whatever part of the ship you built first.

    Power 2.0 and Weapons 3.0 are bad systems and if you could have brought up a proper reason in their defense you would have done so by now.
     
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    OfficialCoding

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    So you first post a false statement with no facts to back it up ( "P2.0 is simpler than P1.0" ), and when confronted with the difference between the two you reply like this.

    These are not the acts of an intelligent man, and in no way do they contribute to the betterment of the game or ourselves.

    Integrity was just one of the MANY things that complicated building, and to the best of my knowledge it's not COMPLETELY gone, and can be turned back on via some settings.

    As for building the systems first, that is not an option if you're building replicas, want proper interior, or don't want your creation to end up looking like a brick. I have specifically said those kind of vessels don't have that much problems with the P2.0 system - so you didn't say anything I didn't already know.
    Anyway, building systems first doesn't make you "Gud", it makes you unimaginitive.

    Lastly, there's still the combat aspect which screws you over whatever part of the ship you built first.

    Power 2.0 and Weapons 3.0 are bad systems and if you could have brought up a proper reason in their defense you would have done so by now.
    That is your opinion. Power 1 is not objectively better than power 2. Power 1 is much more complicated. It's non linear, you use fricken lines as your reactor, and its awful.
     
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    You both know that this fight is nowhere to be useful or up-to-date, do you ?
    The answer to it was said a long time ago : what you think is an opinion, not a fact. It's not even relevant for a lot of us.

    We needed a change Fortius, whatever you think of P2. It's not the best one and it needs a lot of changes, but it's still better than a mess like P1. I agree the last integrity bits are useless, at least in this state. Can't talk about weapons as I was never good at it (and never had the motivation to work on them).

    Anyway, with all the work they've done on P2 I doubt you'll ever see P1 again. And it's for the best, we'd better imrove P2 than regress.
     
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    You both know that this fight is nowhere to be useful or up-to-date, do you ?
    The answer to it was said a long time ago : what you think is an opinion, not a fact. It's not even relevant for a lot of us.

    We needed a change Fortius, whatever you think of P2. It's not the best one and it needs a lot of changes, but it's still better than a mess like P1. I agree the last integrity bits are useless, at least in this state. Can't talk about weapons as I was never good at it (and never had the motivation to work on them).

    Anyway, with all the work they've done on P2 I doubt you'll ever see P1 again. And it's for the best, we'd better imrove P2 than regress.
    For my playstyle, that last part is where my opinion sits on P2. And from what I have read, it appears thats the direction StarMade is going. Evidently after the Universe Update at the earliest. Maybe if someone else can do better (and maybe they can, hell I don't know) they can crunch code and help instead of repeating everything thats been said since the release of P2.

    For the original topic, time will tell. Numbers appear to be low now, but it seems as if there are quite a number of people waiting for the Universe Update to avoid loosing massive work on servers. The infamous "wait and see" syndrome. My understanding is that it is one guy alone crunching the code, if this is correct, its pretty impressive really. So its obviously not completely dead yet, maybe just critically ill. :LOL:

    Doesn't anyone think that their time would be better spent offering a solution, than just saying its no good and calling it a post?

    Taking my own advice, i think the number and distance of stabilzers required to achieve 100% should be reduced by one quarter the current requirements. That would help my playstyle and building design.
     
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    StormWing0

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    Honestly the Heatsink-radiation shielding idea that was floating around before is the only thing I can think of that could replace this type of reactor we currently have. Also adding other types of power sources would be a good idea to open up different play styles. Maybe chambers used primarily on AI ships and stations while something like NPC Crew and Crew Quarters could be used on things not exclusively run by AI. Same benefits either way outside of one being harder to kill than the other but NPC Crew would have all the same powers as a normal player but AI Modules can't restart ships or stations as needed as well as fix themselves in certain ways.
     
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    That is your opinion. Power 1 is not objectively better than power 2. Power 1 is much more complicated. It's non linear, you use fricken lines as your reactor, and its awful.
    So you just keep parroting back the same stuff.

    Forget better or worse. Forget who likes what. Calling P1.0 more complicated than P2.0 is an abject lie.
    Were the power lines stupid? Yes. What's the most you had to pay attention to? Don't cross'em. Might as well argue that water is not wet. That's not an opinion, that's a fact.

    We needed a change
    Why though? Ships flew, guns fired, shields worked. The system wasn't perfect but there were-and are so many greater problems than that.
    Change at all cost isn't necessarily beneficial. It caused a bunch of problems and bugs in and of itself and took valuable time away from fixing other stuff. At this rate, when will the game get finished? 5 more years? 10? I don't know how much love Schema has for this project, but I doubt he'd dedicate his entire life to it. At some point he's bound to move on, whether the game's finished or not.
     
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    Why though?
    Because it wasn't exactly easy to work on, and wasn't what they wanted for the final game ?
    IMO P1 makes less sense than P2. I never saw any scifi universe with such kind of reactors. Even the stabs are easier to justify on this universe than a mysterious energy which likes optimized cubes and magically stop optimizing after 2M cap. It was a pain to build with these cubes in mind when building little to medium ships. No wonder why I didn't bother trying ratio effects.
     
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    My understanding is that it is one guy alone crunching the code, if this is correct, its pretty impressive really
    I don't know how much love Schema has for this project, but I doubt he'd dedicate his entire life to it. At some point he's bound to move on, whether the game's finished or not.
    I agree with both of you. Although it is very impressive, it is also very bad news for "us" (the players), since that's just a single point of failure for the whole game.