Weapon balance, we don't need that

[Neoclad]

No we don't!

We need weapons roles.

All weapons doing same dps is a quick fix to content the community but it is boooooooring.

Weapons must have utility, they must have roles.

Beams are extra accurate, they should do less dps. Role: precision to take out single parts of ships, snipe turrets, snipe cockpits, track faster ships.
Beam turrets must be fixed to be more precise.

Canons should be your do it all weapon, good damage but not crazy, easy to use, should take less space. Cheap and easy, fitted for smaller ships and turrets.

Missiles are quite fine as is, we have the anti fighter role with swarms and the torpedo with beam or pulse. Maybe increase lock-on time so smaller ships are difficult to target.
We need mines!!!

Pulse is utterly useless... keep it to support other weapons.

Discuss.

 

[Yrjosmiel]

Pulse is utterly useless... keep it to support other weapons.

umm, it actually does sht.

 

[Neoclad]

Actually, I agree.
But I feel it could do more. Maybe bigger range? Less damage and more emphasize on effects?
I could see it becoming a way to affect many ships in an area with IEM or Stop/Push/Pull It could be this kind of role.

 

[SapioiT]

I am completly for this to become a thing.

 

[AtraUnam]

Pulse has uses... you're just not using it right. Though it could do with a few tweaks such as: more than 0.5 dps per block (who thought giving it 1/10 the dps of other weapons was a good idea); remove the animation/damage delay so it can actually hit things.

 

[Neoclad]

you're just not using it right.

Maybe... but I think it will always be less effective than other weapons for damage.
It is true that I haven't used it a lot so I would appreciate if you guys could share a few examples of how you use it.

Spoiler

This way I will be able to explain to you that your implementation would be more effective with other weapons or with less damage and more effect ^^

 

[FullMetalFox]

Alone the threads title makes me want to post this
But meh, dude posts 'dont need weapon balance', suggests a common type of weapon balance in the very same thread, sounds familiar?

 

[Neoclad]

lol dude, you don't understand irony

 

[Keptick]

*looks at the way weapons previously worked*

There totally wasn't a single weapon people used because it did more damage, not at all.

Even with them all doing the same DPS, it's hard to balance weapons. And I REALLY don't get why weapons should be locked into a single role, as you're suggesting. The game is designed to give as much creative freedom as possible, removing that freedom is a very bad move. People can and should use the weapons how ever the fek they want, and it should stay that way, imo.

 

[wagfeliz]

Irony thread ??? Lol

 

[Knack]

Missiles are quite fine as is, we have the anti fighter role with swarms and the torpedo with beam or pulse. Maybe increase lock-on time so smaller ships are difficult to target.

Missiles are fine? They ar OP.
Lock on over insane range, doing the same DPS than other weapons but over a huge radius and hitting all entities inside this radius.

Example: Ship with two small Turrets, Missile hits all 5 entities => 5x dmg on the shields of the ship. (As long as over 50% of cousre)

Something went terribly wrong here.

 

[Kaamio]

*looks at the way weapons previously worked*

There totally wasn't a single weapon people used because it did more damage, not at all.

Even with them all doing the same DPS, it's hard to balance weapons. And I REALLY don't get why weapons should be locked into a single role, as you're suggesting. The game is designed to give as much creative freedom as possible, removing that freedom is a very bad move. People can and should use the weapons how ever the fek they want, and it should stay that way, imo.

Just because it was bad before doens't mean it can't be made better Generally I don't much like the "don't restrict our creativity" argument because it's always and never restricted, we can make whatever we like but efficiency might not be optimal, just as we have been doing so far. I don't think having weapon "roles" is a bad thing, nobody demands that you use them in that particular role, but if all weapons are equal then one of them is best just about everywhere. From difference grows diversity etc blah blah...

There *should* be compensation in damage considering the relative accuracy and range of the weapon, firing a cannon at point blank with 100% accuracy should make it rather op in my opinion. Missiles should do less dps due to accuracy (guided ones) and range and high alpha, while beams ought to be somewhere in between because... you know, accurate but not automatic hit and all that. Generally pulse modifier should yield a bit less actual dps as they are high alpha weapon.

Missiles and point defense probably do need some balancing, if not now then at some point, I'm not sure if the damage multiplied due to docked entities within blast radius is a real thing but if it is it should be fixed. I don't want missiles to become obsolete but they are the best atm, due to good attributes with no big drawbacks. It's not a big shift that they need, more of a gentle nudge. To be honest, I have little doubt that if they are "fixed", it goes straight past the balance point into oblivion for a few months. I wish Schine would figure out the difference between fine adjustment sledgehammer and a wrecking ball. So maybe it's better if missiles are left mostly alone and any balancing happens by compensating other weapons for their failings.

edit: come to think about it, missiles could easily have special effect on shielded ships. Something like 70-80% damage on the entity that is actually hit (unfocused blast on shield surface, probably not as good as one hitting hull) and 15% damage on docked entities within radius. That would amount to 100-110% damage if there's one turret within area of effect. The explosion shockwace is probably not gentle for turrets, after all... blast forces tearing the ship in multiple directions and all that.

 

[godmars]

I

Missiles are fine? They ar OP.

Maybe on a server where max speed is 300 MS and you can fire the most basic missiles at stuff you cant even see visually, but they are much more manageable in vanilla which is what it should bebalance around, IMO. If anything we just need some sort of indicator on missile lock and possibly the direction they're coming from

 

[Keptick]

Actually, here's a suggestion: Modify your server configs to obtain your desired changed (which can easily be done), roll with it a bit and report on the experience. As a councilor my job is to be open to ideas that can benefit the game.

Kaamio I have to agree with you on that one.

 

[wagfeliz]

There is a point I would like to add. Currently, if you add one effect, you have penalty. Even if you are using much more blocks, your ship have bigger mass because of this, need more power, more thrust etc. There is already a penalty to include new blocks, so almost all effects today are pointless. New system should think on this with more carefully.

 

[Kaamio]

There is a point I would like to add. Currently, if you add one effect, you have penalty. Even if you are using much more blocks, your ship have bigger mass because of this, need more power, more thrust etc. There is already a penalty to include new blocks, so almost all effects today are pointless. New system should think on this with more carefully.

Umm... no. effect modules add to final dps like weapon blocks so adding an effect can be done by replacing modules, costing only the computer as additional block and gaining the effect with the same base damage.

Of course, effects have downsides too, but I don't think that's what you meant.

 

[Lecic]

Beams are extra accurate, they should do less dps. Role: precision to take out single parts of ships, snipe turrets, snipe cockpits, track faster ships.
Beam turrets must be fixed to be more precise.

As a wise man once said, "Beams are perfect for completely missing the target." Beams are, in fact, hilariously inaccurate. Why do you think the only time they're effective is when all combatants are locked into a single sector (such as Blood and Steal)

Should some weapons be better in some situations than others? Yes. Is this suggestion a good way to do it? No. Certain weapons need to have their situational advantages accounted for when balancing them- for example, missile/pulse was extremely powerful due to its insane reload time, so the nukes were made slower and have weakened effectiveness against shields. However, forcing all these broad weapon categories into thin little situational slices of usefulness with no regard for different secondaries or effects is a horrible way to balance this.

If you make a weapon the best all around weapon, that will be the only weapon people use. See examples such as cannon/cannon, missile/pulse, missile/beam, and missile/missile. Your suggestion doesn't actually change much, besides making beams somehow suck even more. Cannon/cannon and missile/beam or missile/missile will continue to rule in the examples you've provided.

Also, the fact that you didn't even TRY to do anything with pulse is kind of embarrassing for this thread. I mean, seriously?

 

[Neoclad]

As a wise man once said, "Beams are perfect for completely missing the target." Beams are, in fact, hilariously inaccurate. Why do you think the only time they're effective is when all combatants are locked into a single sector (such as Blood and Steal)

Should some weapons be better in some situations than others? Yes. Is this suggestion a good way to do it? No. Certain weapons need to have their situational advantages accounted for when balancing them- for example, missile/pulse was extremely powerful due to its insane reload time, so the nukes were made slower and have weakened effectiveness against shields. However, forcing all these broad weapon categories into thin little situational slices of usefulness with no regard for different secondaries or effects is a horrible way to balance this.

If you make a weapon the best all around weapon, that will be the only weapon people use. See examples such as cannon/cannon, missile/pulse, missile/beam, and missile/missile. Your suggestion doesn't actually change much, besides making beams somehow suck even more. Cannon/cannon and missile/beam or missile/missile will continue to rule in the examples you've provided.

Also, the fact that you didn't even TRY to do anything with pulse is kind of embarrassing for this thread. I mean, seriously?

Who said I did not try?

IRL, weapons are designed for different purposes: long range, close quarter, self defense, mass destruction etc...
In the current implementation of starmade weapons are just designed to do damage, there is no real reason to use one or the other except personal taste.

Everybody is screaming missiles are OP but they forget about radar jammers.
I agree however, and already said that fast moving targets should be more difficult to acquire.

With my idea weapons would still be as customizable as they are using effects and combinations, but these effects and combinations would have stronger differences.

Simply look at other PVP games, and think why you take a sniper rifle over a submachine gun or why you take a Warlock over a ranger?
In starmade we can play roles through so many different ways (speed, cloaking, mass shield...) weapons should add to this diversity.

Finally giving roles to weapons should stop everybody from using the same one as there would be reason to use weaponse that deal less damage.

 

[Lecic]

Who said I did not try?

Who said you didn't try? Me. You did absolutely nothing to try and make them a viable weapon, in your thread ABOUT making the different weapon types viable for different reasons!

Everybody is screaming missiles are OP but they forget about radar jammers.

Turrets can instantly fire lock on missiles as soon as jamming drops. Swarm missiles will track ships that are jammed once they've locked onto the ship before it jammed. Jamming will presumably be a better counter for missiles in the future, but it will also probably have a timer before you can reenable it if scanners drop it.

Finally giving roles to weapons should stop everybody from using the same one as there would be reason to use weaponse that deal less damage.

Beams are already "highly accurate" (even though they excel at missing the target), and can do more block damage due to dealing it out over a couple ticks instead of instantly like cannons. You don't need to stack lower DPS on top of shorter range- that'll make beams even shitter. Literally NO ONE will be using beams if this kind of change was implemented.

Cannons are already the "do it all" weapon- they've got good range, good rate of fire, good damage, and low penalty for missing, because the only cannon type people use is rapid. Why the fuck do you even want a "do it all" weapon when you're trying to make every weapon type something you can use? This'll just make everyone want to use cannons.

Missiles are quite fine as is

I shouldn't even need to explain why (lock on) missiles are overpowered. High damage, lock on, and undodgeable without overdrive. If you set the slave for missile/missile to 50%, it has a faster reload time and faster flying missiles, and is even more powerful than 1:1 missile/missile systems.

 

[Valiant70]

I shouldn't even need to explain why (lock on) missiles are overpowered. High damage, lock on, and undodgeable without overdrive. If you set the slave for missile/missile to 50%, it has a faster reload time and faster flying missiles, and is even more powerful than 1:1 missile/missile systems.

Heatseekers also need a balance mechanism other than the possibility of killing your friends. That's not balance. That's stupid. With technology on the level of warp and free power, there is no flipping way IR missiles wouldn't include IFF to keep from locking a friendly. They need to lock on a cone in front like lockon missiles, but just lock instantly in return for slower flight or lower damage. This way there would be pros and cons for each missile type:

Lock-on (beam slave):
Pros:

• Longer range
• Higher alpha and marginally (like 10% or less) higher DPS

Cons:

• Lock-on takes time
• Fewer projectiles (by default) so easier to shoot down

Heat seeker (missile slave):
Pros:

• Instant lock
• Extra outputs without extra power consumption; harder to shoot them all down

Cons:

• Shorter range
• Lower alpha and marginally (seriously, put that nerf bat DOWN!) lower DPS

I also think nukes (pulse slave) should regain a very weak and slow lock-on function so they can hit a moving super-titan at long range. By weak I mean it might curve 10 degrees from launch to its max range so pretty much anything could dodge it.

I think missiles with cannon slave should fire like rocket pods (short volleys of lots of projectiles). That would make them useful because all the missiles have the potential of hitting the same spot (or almost) and punching deep inside the ship.

Missiles with no support system should be the fastest of all missiles because otherwise they will be the least useful, having no special attributes or lock-on. They should be *VERY* fast for close-range skill-based kills in dogfights.