Brainstorm This Warhead Launcher Weapon

[nightrune]

As much as people love designing warhead torpedoes, they have some ailments that are pretty much incurable in their current state as an exploding block. They fail under lag, cause collision lag, clog the server database with spent torpedo entities, and most importantly, are (and will continue to be) impossible to detect as hostile without causing any neutral carrying warheads to be fired on automatically.

I am proposing that the current warhead block be replaced with a 4-part weapon system.

Warhead Launcher Computer- The controller. What goes on the hotbar. Warhead Launcher Tubes and Cargo Spaces are linked to it to turn it into a functional weapon. It locks on. It cannot be fired by logic or docked AI.

Warhead Launcher Tube- This is the weapon module for the system. Determines the output, number of outputs, warhead cost, and damage per output. Damage per module would be around 5000.

Cargo Spaces- This weapon borrows the cargo spaces from the cargo system. The storage can be accessed by pressing R on the computer. The difference being that this cargo can only hold warheads, and does not compress cargo at all, with each warhead taking up a full block of space. Transfer speeds from normal storage to warhead storage are extremely slow, for balance purposes, to prevent people from just keeping all their warheads in the much more compact standard cargo system.

Warheads- Warheads are now inert without a computer and tube to prime them. Once fired, like current warheads, they ignore shields. They will home in on whatever entity has been locked on to. Warheads can be targetted by point defense, as well, with a new setting for AI- "Missiles (Prioritize Warheads)." This goes along with "Missiles (Prioritize Missiles)." Warheads travel at 3x server max and have much higher health than standard missiles, making specialized anti-warhead PD a good idea for taking them down at anything but longer range.
The ammo cost of warheads for a launcher is determined by the number of modules, outputs and separate computers with linked weapons on board, going up an exponential scale. 1 launcher means 1 warhead consumed, 2 launchers means 2, 3 = 4, 4 = 8, 5 = 16, etc. The ammo cost accounts for separate computers, meaning if you have 4 separate warhead launchers with 1 module each, the ammo cost would still be 2 warheads each. If you have a number that can't be split evenly (3 1 block launchers, meaning ammo cost 4 total), the ammo cost per launcher rounded up. (1.33 warheads per launcher for the 3 1 block launchers means ammo cost of 2 for each launcher.)

I think this is pretty inspired but in simplifying the concept I think you've lost the fun (at least for me) in building the launchers. I'm going to try to suggest a concept that could be used for multiple things and not just warheads. I've been playing around on NFD building small ships and one of the ones I was building was a probe. Right now its pretty useless, and I think that's a shame. So I have two ideas. Both of them are based off a concept of having a computer either slaved to a launch rail or a launch rail slaved to a computer.

1) Fly By Wire - You create the remote drone/fly by wire computer. You slave the end of your launch rail to this computer. You or a friend is in the command chair of the computer. Once an object passes over that launch rail, the person using the computers camera view and stats are taken to that entity. If the entity is overheating then you can no longer control or reboot it. The range is limited to your current sector and adjacent sectors since these are already loaded anyway.

2) Set target/Set Destination Targeting Computer - The same concept of having a new computer that sets a target or a destination. Once the entity leaves this launch rail its target is set in its Bobby AI. This target comes from the targeting computer set by a player. The bobby AI attempts to use the properties of the entity to ram or attack (this is dependent on Bobby AI mode).

Additional Ideas for Counters:
Radar Jammers should create a fuzzy view for fly by wire. This is like jamming the video signal coming back to the mother ship.

Radar Jammers in a set target or set destination mode should return to a dumb fire method.

Cool Fallout of this.
My drones are now useful! As I can set a target sector and have them fly that way! Or I can fly it myself! This also simplifies having pilots on a ship and using them to direct drones as you launch replacements without having to need to respawn, and getting you into the fight faster. This conserves building your own drones/probes/warheads which I think is awesome and you can have the launch mechanism anyway you want. You could even fire off transport ships to other planets from a single planet pretty easy.

For core and database garbage though.. I'm not sure. I was partial with the bobby AI torpedo mode where it just deleted itself afterward.

 

[Bladeriker]

Given that the Bobby A.I. already have the "Target Select" option all it needs is a Torpedo Option where (ship, Turret) are now. I do think that Warhead grouping should give a bonus to damage, and would love to use thrusters instead of Push effect for thrust. Could also make it so that Torpedoes counted as missiles for targeting.

I enjoy making launchers, and the Idea is to make a weapon that hits big, but is limited in use number of uses is where I think Warheads should be used. At the same time there does need to be a improvement in A.I. for both targeting and collision.

Fly by wire is an interesting option that could have many other applications, but I am not sure what that would do to game play over all.

 

[banks456]

I have to agree with this idea. The current system causes too much lag. I think the process of building warheads and turrets in this game needs to change because a ship core should only be used for ships. Every turret or warhead you build is an extra ship attached to the ship you already have which adds to the lag in this game. So I do agree with adding a warhead class weapon with its own computer and own launching system which doesn't need a ship core which should reduce lag in this game. Although some of us have amazing rigs or gaming notebooks not everybody that plays this game does. So I know if having a bunch of attached entities on a ship drops my frame rate a little I can only imagine what does to other players with less powerful machines. I think a overhaul like this would be for the good of the game. As far as a ship being over powered by this idea, well its a voxel sandbox game, you suppose to have the freedom to build the most insane machine you can think of. Plus i'm sure there are ways of limiting the weapons in any type of survival mode server. I know some people might disagree but adding this feature doesn't have to take away from the old way of doing things but give people an option. sandbox games are all about freedom and options in my opinion.

 

[Bladeriker]

The main issue with removing the ship core from turrets/torpedoes is that there would have to be a entirely new block/blocks designed to accommodate this, where the current system while not prefect does function. There is also the issue of how to balance the warhead/torpedo.

 

[Madman198237]

The biggest issue of removing cores from these things has already been pointed out to me---the collision checks that cause lag don't go away. Simply removing the core won't stop collisions. Perhaps if the game was set up to require you to "configure" turrets, during which the game lags to a slideshow (On most computers) while it calculates the entire area in which the turret can move. It then never strays from this area, and NEVER has another collision check with the mothership.

Maybe. Unless I'm just wrong, which, with my limited knowledge of the game's system and the programming behind games in general, is entirely possible.

 

[banks456]

The biggest issue of removing cores from these things has already been pointed out to me---the collision checks that cause lag don't go away. Simply removing the core won't stop collisions. Perhaps if the game was set up to require you to "configure" turrets, during which the game lags to a slideshow (On most computers) while it calculates the entire area in which the turret can move. It then never strays from this area, and NEVER has another collision check with the mothership.

Maybe. Unless I'm just wrong, which, with my limited knowledge of the game's system and the programming behind games in general, is entirely possible.

Oh I didn't know that. If players having to configuring the turrets would get rid of the lag then I'm sure most of us would be happy to do it because I enjoy ships with multiple entities attached to them for turrets and doors but when the creator uses docking systems to automate everything the lag takes away from the fun.

 

[Reviire]

I haven't read anything aside from the OP, but I'd like if the warheads were more variable in how they work. They shouldn't just do that much damage and travel at 3x server speed, you should be able to tinker with them, have slow, but tanky and strong warheads, maybe have fast but easy to kill warheads. Put some extra space in for a lock on feature and maneuverability.

 

[Madman198237]

This idea is basically a missile launcher improvement. Especially yours, Reviire. No insults intended, but it would better serve as a missile launcher change as opposed to the replacement of another game system.

 

[Bladeriker]

There is also a question of (Starmade Meta) Are the current Missile systems based on nano-tech where the missiles are created for use during the reload time? Or are Missile systems some form of advanced Plasma with targeting options.

If it is Nano-tech then it is entirely possible that torpedoes could be done the same way.

However, I will note that the vast majority of other space sims differentiate between missiles and torpedoes by; A missile bring too small to be effectively targeted by a player, and a Torpedo can be targeted by the player. Also Missiles tend to be much faster than torpedoes, but missiles die to flak where Torpedoes can take a few hits before exploding.

I am not sure how hard it would be to program the same Anit-Missile A.I. targeting against Torpedoes if Torpedoes were given a set of blocks like other weapon systems.

Then again, why not just use powerful missiles instead?

For this to work, it would require an A.I. change to either target a new Weapon system output (Torpedoes) or to pilot a ship as a torpedo and ram into its target. There would also need to be a change make to warheads to be either buffed (In groups), removed as the Weapon system has a new output, or added to a weapon system as the output block. A way to manufacture torpedoes on ship, through storage or a (internal ship manufacturing bay block system) So that only a certain number of torpedoes can be used at any give time. It would also be helpful to have some way to monitor how many torpedoes are ready to fire and max/current number of torpedoes available.

 

[Lecic]

There is also a question of (Starmade Meta) Are the current Missile systems based on nano-tech where the missiles are created for use during the reload time? Or are Missile systems some form of advanced Plasma with targeting options.

I'm pretty sure the devs have stated there there's no fixed lore for how any of the weapons work so that people can make up whatever they want.

Then again, why not just use powerful missiles instead?

Because powerful missiles take up a lot of space and don't ignore shields, which is the exact opposite of what this suggestion is about.

 

[Bladeriker]

I'm pretty sure the devs have stated there there's no fixed lore for how any of the weapons work so that people can make up whatever they want.



Because powerful missiles take up a lot of space and don't ignore shields, which is the exact opposite of what this suggestion is about.

So what you want is a Missile that ignores shields? I'm sure that could be added, but that is not a torpedo, not a warhead, and extremely over powered due to Spamming. As it stands there is not an in-game ammo system other than raw energy stores, and there is no way to target missiles at the player level (A.I. level there is) other than firing in their general direction and getting lucky.

The Current Torpedo builds allow for a finite number of (Possible) High-Yield anti capital ship ordinance, that due to size, space needed to carry them, and launching device control for spamming. Thus only the largest of ships, or specialized fighters/bombers will be equipped with torpedoes. The current builds also add a touch of realism in that if the torpedo magazine is hit, there is a chance for massive internal damage to the ship carrying the torpedoes, if not total loss of the ship based on size and explosion.

What is being suggested is a system that would allow for any sized ship to carry an ignores shield weapon with little to no over-site given for abuse, as it will be abused unless there is a control in place for limitations. Because while using a rail launched torpedo limits the number that can be fired off of one system. Checkerboarding a weapon system increases the number of projectiles launched, thus what is being suggested would be little more than a glorified Missile system that ignores shields.

 

[Lecic]

So what you want is a Missile that ignores shields? I'm sure that could be added, but that is not a torpedo, not a warhead, and extremely over powered due to Spamming. As it stands there is not an in-game ammo system other than raw energy stores, and there is no way to target missiles at the player level (A.I. level there is) other than firing in their general direction and getting lucky.

The Current Torpedo builds allow for a finite number of (Possible) High-Yield anti capital ship ordinance, that due to size, space needed to carry them, and launching device control for spamming. Thus only the largest of ships, or specialized fighters/bombers will be equipped with torpedoes. The current builds also add a touch of realism in that if the torpedo magazine is hit, there is a chance for massive internal damage to the ship carrying the torpedoes, if not total loss of the ship based on size and explosion.

What is being suggested is a system that would allow for any sized ship to carry an ignores shield weapon with little to no over-site given for abuse, as it will be abused unless there is a control in place for limitations. Because while using a rail launched torpedo limits the number that can be fired off of one system. Checkerboarding a weapon system increases the number of projectiles launched, thus what is being suggested would be little more than a glorified Missile system that ignores shields.

Did you actually read the suggestion? Just wondering.

 

[StarWars1981]

I like the idea to "configure" turrets AND warheads (to keep it relevant). Designating the attached Bobby AI as "Torpedo" would set it to attack whatever else - if set to attack your target ... it does so. If set to "Any", it'll do that, too.
Configuring them calculates their rail positioning, its potential motions, and, possibly, a quick flight path AWAY from the mothership. Or something like that. And then denies EVERYTHING that caused a collision.

For turrets, this means they are not allowed to target vessels outside an angle-defined "target zone" or some such, and they also cannot rotate into that zone. This, although it may not eliminate checks very much like collision checks, could reduce lag.
Could do this by having it reference the turret's "Start Orientation" for degree measurements. If measurement exceeds, say, 90*, halt motion that direction.

 

[DrTarDIS]

How about: "Block Launcher" "support" system, (which cannot actually be placed in the "support" slot of a weapon )
-Replaces ASTROTECHNITION Block in both functionality and BID#
-does nothing unless linked to an inventory : c(computer)->v(inventory)
-Exponential power scaling with module count
-Linear power scaling with output count (more outputs incur 10% inefficiency seen elsewhere)
-typical effect when collision fails: short range beam that "drops" the first/block in the connected inventory as a block-meta-item like a sweet-lewt cloud from a pirate. This entity never saves to HDD, and is just "gone" if the sector reloads.
-range: 5% sector-size from emission point.
-Gains effect based on being "C" connected to "V"weapons computer by computer
_V_Cannon- Blocks spawn bound to a cannon projectile(with no-clip first 1 second please), are now "overheating" coreless entities, never save on sector unload, despawn a maximum of 20 seconds after emission at 100% support, 2-3 seconds at 0%. Normal collision rules.(damage if enabled, momentum change if not)
_V_Missile- Blocks spawn bound to a dumbfire missile projectile(with no-clip for it's first 2-3 seconds pls), Increases range up to max 20% sector. Blocks instantly overheat after traveling their distance. Normal collision rules for an entity of it's mass.(damage if enabled, momentum change if not)
_V_Pulse- increases block interval, but drops/builds up to "explosion" in blocks at once to compensate based on ratio. Trys to "restore to blueprint" like a shipyard, based on first slot in inventory having a blueprint. Normal build-ownership conditions. Normal inventory requirements. drops the block-meta-item on collision if the build-ownership fails, like a sweet-lewt cloud from a pirate.
_V_Beam- Trys to "restore to blueprint" like a shipyard, based on first slot in inventory having a blueprint. Normal build-ownership conditions. Normal inventory requirements. drops the block-meta-item on collision if the build-ownership fails, like a sweet-lewt cloud from a pirate.

lauche warheads, scrap hull, whatever. It's either a "mass driver" or a friendly electroplating system, all depending on how you use it

 

[HeartUponSleeve]

If they do not home in, then this should be fine after some few weeks of balancing.

But the whole idea of a weapon that completely ignores shields AND homes in on targets, absolutely ridiculous.

 

[JNC]

I think this is a great idea, especially the bits about building torpedoes and having them exist as ammo AND actual cargo... custom torpedo manufacturing, etc.

I feel as though, in many instances, big scary space torpedoes are usually held in reserve until "the enemies shields are down!!!" otherwise their effectiveness is greatly reduced. They are usually unguided, or have very limited tracking due to their bulk and are slower than other projectile / missile weapons. If this sort of approach is pursued, combined with the suggested torpedo manufacturing processes, than they could perhaps be made to use tertiary blocks for different effects, such as a torpedo equipped with ion blocks to give it shield piercing strength... maybe based on its mass (i.e. torpedo can travel through x-amount of shields from ion effectiveness multiplied by mass).

Also, this instantly reminded me of the little torpedo bomber ship from Starsector. It's basically a fighter that carries a single large torpedo that it releases during a 'torpedo run' similar to how ww2 planes would. It than returns to the carrier to re-arm. I think it's entirely fair to have a small ship carry a big 'stick' so to speak because the small ship is affected by the weapons mass, is vulnerable when making it's attack run, and the torpedo itself can still be shot down by the targets defenses... and in this case, it's a single shot due to its size! I think, also, these torpedoes aren't propelled, so only go as fast as when they were released by the bombers. If the torpedoes can be custom built than it could just be left up to the designer whether or not they had engines.

 

[Bladeriker]

Did you actually read the suggestion? Just wondering.

I did read it, before and after the first few times I posted.

The Issue still stands, that what is being suggested is a spammable system that will nearly ignore shields, is nearly identical to current missiles systems, and can carry a nearly infinite number of shots, based on cargo capacity and energy. It does not add any built in weakness or danger to the ship carrying it. Does not require thoughtful ship design to use. Does not use logic. Based on what is there, it could be used on any ship at any size with no specialty required.

Whereas current warhead torpedoes, are limited. Not spammable. Add a built in danger to the ship carrying it. Add mass to the carrying ship. Require thoughtful ship building for best use. Requires basic logic knowledge. Typically only seen on specialty ships and primary capital ships.

I can understand why making a weapon system for Torpedoes or torpedo like weapons easier would help new players, but most new players will not be in ships that would even need such a weapon. Not to mention Hostile NPC's armed with the suggested Torpedoes would wreck new players and cause havoc across most servers. The Warhead block in general has uses other than just making Torpedoes such as traps, mines, self-destruct systems, and excavation, to name a few.

 

[Lecic]

spammable

In what way? I thought the limitations I gave it do a good job of preventing it from being spammable. How is it spammable?

and can carry a nearly infinite number of shots,

How? Cargo capacity required increases exponentially as the weapon becomes more effective, and its effect as a small weapon is nearly useless.

 

[JNC]

Bladeriker...

There are some specific points of the OP suggestion that may not be agreeable (ignoring shields) but overall it appears to be a good suggestion on how to make warhead blocks more useful, and fun.

If you use your imagination, and include posts after the first one, you will see that with a bit of tweeking, the OP suggestion can easily become something more appealing:
- Dont ignore shields, done!
- Dont make them identical to current msl systems? done!
- Dont carry infinite shots because uses cargo space (current msl do not) unless ship is infinite in size
- Add a built in weakness (msl cargo areas are explosive, because they're made of warheads, done!)
- If you include later suggestions than 'thoughtful ship designs' are necessary because these missiles must be loaded into a launch bay (which must be designed in the first place) or to and from ships, etc (very similar to From the Depths approach)
- Does anything in game use logic? I thought logic uses other things?
- You may be correct (depending on cargo requirements) in stating that any ship of any size could use these suggested warheads (isnt that a good thing?) but since they do use cargo space, i.e. entire blocks or more per warhead, the size of torpedo a small ship could use would be very limited, or it would only hold a single shot in its launch bay.

Might i suggest using constructive criticism? Rather than simply criticizing, or complaining about the parts you do not like, throw out some ideas! How do you think the OPs suggestion can be improved upon, while still maintaining the overall concept?

 

[Bladeriker]

The reason I see them as spammable is that a larger ship (Battleship, Carrier, or larger) would have the ability to overcome the Cargo issue by simply having massive cargo hold, given most blocks in the default build stack to (999,999.), having multiple cargo holds that could store max block stack lends itself to abuse, and 200 single shot emitters while needing a bit of ammo would at 5k damage be dealing 1mil alpha damage straight to the hull and internals shortly there after for one system, larger ships would no doubt have multiple systems just for this purpose. Also smaller craft could achieve a two emitter system (10k dmg) and never run out of ammo with the current cargo system.

Simple ways to fix this issue would be:

• Limit the number of Warheads in a stack. Example stack size could be 1000 blocks max per stack. (Using the current Cargo set up)
• Limit the number of Stacks of warheads that can be in anyone Cargo hold.
  
• New Block for Ammo Magazines that that can hold a limited number of blocks. Example Ammo Mags block could hold a maximum of 100 total warhead blocks (Not stacked blocks but blocks total). Presuming warheads are still being used as ammo. For bigger Magazines place more blocks in contact with each other. Thus small ships would have smaller payloads, and large ships could have larger payloads.
• Increase the Mass of warheads so that carrying massive numbers in cargo holds is a determent to the ships mobility.

I also noticed that the suggested max speed was 3x server, which at the moment is faster the normal missiles, and presuming that this suggestion can add slaves it would be 9x server when adding a beam slave to it, which may be moving to fast for AMS to deal with.

Possible fixes include.

• Have Max speed locked at 3x server. (Faster than normal Missile, but slower than Fast missile)
  
• Speed penalty based on size of system. Larger systems move slower. (Do not really like this one but it is an option)

Also what is the Range of this weapon? as I never saw it posted. As it stands there are 9.6km range missiles in game now (M+B), and while it may be fun to spray a large area with these, being 4 sectors over and getting shelled by a battle that one is not involved in would ruin a players day.

On a side note. While I do prefer to build launchers using logic, and gaining mastery in those fields, I am not opposed to new things either. I have unfortunately had some very bad experiences with PvP griefng over the years and tend to look at things from a prospective of a player being griefed.