Wall of suggested changes/modifications.

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    Over the past five days or so, me and a friend have been making ships and talking about what changes to the game would make it more enjoyable for us, Some of these are mine, some his, some both of us. My friend has already stopped playing while I continue with making ship designs for when the game is playable as something more than a glorious scale lego set, but both of us agree this isn't really a game yet, however it has everything in place or nearly so, to be a playable game with a single patch with only minor additions. Those follow below.

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    1. Shields

    Problem:

    Shields currently are one of two things depending on how many your ship/station has. Either godmode, or worthless, there is no middle ground. This is entirely due to shield recharge, which determins if the enemies weapons can overcome your absurd rate of recharge, or not. If they can, they collapse in seconds typically, if they can't, you can fall asleep at the keyboard and wake up an hour later and still be right as rain.

    Suggested Solution(s):

    1. Make shields toggleable systems, a on/off switch if you will. (This can be done with either a universal key, or via the weapons tab.) When the shields are turned "on" they protect your ship, but have "ZERO" shield recharge rate. When turned "off" they no longer protect your ship, but gain shield recharge.

    Now to do this you have to make two other changes, first off you need to make switching between them have a timer, 10-20 seconds I recommend. This prevents it being used effectively in combat under fire. And second you need to either vastly increase shield capacity added per block, or give shields a default 90-98% damage resistance, this way shields no longer collapse instantly.

    2. The other solution, and perhaps a lot easier to code in, is to simply make shields stop recharging when shot at for 20-60 seconds, with the timer being reset with each shot. Of course this requires the same changes to shield capacity and/or shield damage resistance to make ship fights last longer than 10-20 seconds.

    Both of these solutions make ship fights VASTLY more fun, with even a little interceptor being able to participate in a capital ship battle and make a small difference, where as currently the intercepter wouldn't even be noticed. And of course with the damage resistance/capacity increased immensely, fights would no longer be solely decided on who fired their overpower as hell cannons first dropping a same class ship in seconds. (Weapon balance is also covered below.)

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    2. Weapon Modifications and Scaling

    Problem:

    Anyone thats made increasingly larger weapon banks can see the issue in the weapon's stats. For those who have not, the issue is the with each additional weapon attached together, you get a bonus to every stat of that weapon. Damage, Rate of fire, Distance, etc. Now why is this a problem? Well it becomes obvious as you make a truely large gun, instead of getting this massive antimatter gun that fires these slow powerful shots, you instead get a antimatter cannon that fires massive, fast as hell, insane distance, rounds that fire faster than the game itself can render the projectiles themselves. (With large enough guns, I actually crashed the server due to it firing something like 20,000 rounds a second "PER" gun.) And keep in mind with these guns putting a minigun rate of fire to shame, each round is doing 2,000 damage, instantly vaporizing a hole through a planet made of hardened hulls instantly. (Which are also covered below.)

    Suggested Solutions:

    Change the way weapons are upgraded. I suggest doing this via a upgrade point system. When you place your first antimatter cannon, you get some default stats that are horrible, but you also get a point in the weapon configuration tab, and an additional point for each weapon connected to the first one, these points are then spent to upgrade the weapon in a specific field. This way if you make a collasal cannon that does insane damage per shot by only upgrading damage, that shot will travel only 50 meters, be able to be dodged by a battlecruiser because it's so slow, and take 30 seconds per shot. So now you have to make sacrifices to get crazy damage, or rate of fire, letting you specialize weapons, want to hit fast fighters? Make a short range, fast projectile minigun, it won't do 2,000 damage a shot, but your likely to hit the target, and yet this weapon won't be good vs a enemy capital ship thats bombarding you from a range.

    Oh and finnaly I suggest making a cap on rate of fire. Even with these changes, you'll be able to crash servers with it uncapped.

    More to come in an hour, I need a break.
     

    MrFURB

    Madman of the Girders
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    Most of your changes seem sage enough.

    One issue I have is your idea of weapon upgrading. A 2,000 block cannon might be OP, but it\'s also a 2,000 block cannon. It was specifically made to be OP, and a counter strategy should be added for such a weapon other than \'bigger shields\' because, as you explained well, they don\'t work right now. (As a side note the maximum fire rate the game currently handles is 20 rounds a second with 50ms inbetween. It will show up as 50 on your weapons computer)



    Your suggestion replaces a linear curve with a drastically flatter one while adding the inconvenience of not having automatic point application. When working with large amounts of weapons or when time is important, being forced to manually pump up your weapons can be aggravating.

    I like your suggestion for shields, but what if we switched the curve that shield capacity has to regen, buffed capacity a little, and made damage mitigation of hull/hardened hull affect the shields covering them?
     

    ImperialDonut

    Overlord of the North Pole
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    but it doesn\'t hurt to scan the suggestions page first before you put a bunch of effort into something that has been suggested before, not that I want to discourage you in the slightest from proposing changes that you think might benefit the game.

    But I posted an extensive advanced weapons proposal about a week ago that pretty much does exactly what you mention in changes here (or at least tackles the problems you mention), and quite a lot more...

    If you\'re interested: http://star-made.org/content/advanced-combat-proposal-tid



    That said; it is of course nice to see that others come to the same conclusion on their own, reinforcing both opinions somewhat I\'d say. ; )
     
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    As a little thought, I\'d like to suggest to consider, instead of fiddling with shields, a way to bypass/disrupt them, temporarily stop the recharge and so on. Such tactical equipment not only would be more interesting snd elegant in a bigger battle scenario but also would require less manual clicking with switching shields on/off.

    I am quite sure that, although possibly it\'s a bug, shields can already be bypassed by explosive of big enough radius - I saw more than once situation where I shot the ship with missile set for max radius, which destroyed part of the hull, yet AMC fire which followed immediately after stopped at the shield which - if color is any indication - was still quite strong so unless it had some really powerful and instant recharge (and I recall there is 10 seconds of waiting period before recharging after shields go down) it means it never went down. So even if you make a ship packed with shields to the brim, there\'s no godmode like OP says.

    As for weapons, I do have to agree there is an issue and I think that counting the stats modifiers by additional blocks in non-linear way would solve it, as an alternative to some sort stat allocation.

    By which I mean, let\'s say. You\'ve got AMC cannon. First two blocks will give it +2 (values taken out of nowhere) reload per block, next two +3, next two +4, next two +3, then +2 for two, +1 and so on till the values would actually start to substract reload speed. Different stats would have different progression function (for example, damage can keep on rising with size even when things like bolt speed and reload decrease).

    It would be lot of data to keep but it would be basically the same thing, just using current systems instead of having to add new ones and with nice side-feature of no min-maxing potential which would keep it all more natural and balanced, even when someone would still adjust percentage of power distribution.

    There could also be just flat-out stat cut after the cannon reaches certain size which would be very easy and quick thing to add, but it would waste quite some potential.
     
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    Since there is sadly no multi-quote I\'ll just have to answer you all this way.

    MrFURB:

    Yes obviously a 2000 block cannon is going to be OP. My issue isn\'t that it\'s powerful, it\'s that it\'s a jack-of-all-trades where everything is set to \"GOD\" rather then \"meh\". The issue is having a MASSIVE gun, that also fires like a minigun. See many modern warships firing 400mm shells at minigun speeds? Exactly. It neither makes sense or is balanced in any way. Guns need to have trade-offs.

    As for shields, sadly what you propose doesn\'t fix the current issue, you either have no effect on a shield, or you basically don\'t notice it\'s even there. Hence my suggestion to make shields always fail eventually under sustained fire, yet let them take a beating for an extended time before they do, making the battles more like \"battles\" and less like \"one shot ko\'s\", when two ships are of similar size. I have no issue with a dreadnought vaporizing a little corvette if it can hit it.

    TheImperialDonut:

    I did a brief skim-over of some posts before making my own, but I just wanted to consolidate all my ideas into one post. (I still need to finish the rest of it, but want to think on it some more before I do.) Glad to see we had similar ideas.

    Visitor:

    I have no problem with something being added to disrupt or even counter shields. (Nothing should be able to downright ignore shields, as some ships depend on them, doesn\'t make sense to be able to bypass every block in the way of shooting the core does it? Same issue.) But something like a EMP weapon that does massive damage to them, yet zero damage to hulls would work well. The issue atm is that shields are the ONLY effective form of defense, hull/armor doesn\'t do squat currently.

    As for the thing with explosion radius, I\'ve tested some pretty crazy missiles that removed 1/10 of a planet each, didn\'t bypass shields when used on ships for me, but yes, if you were able to, it\'s a bug. Currently missiles are overpowered as hell against unshielded things, and useless against shields. They need to be completely redone.

    As for your gun proposals, something like that could work too, basically what we need is a system that removes the ability to make a gun that does EVERYTHING impossibly well, where you need to choose what it does well, at the price of making it do something else poorly.

    Everyone:

    The catch atm, is that fixing one system requires fixing others as well, so they need to all be reworked at once, or it\'ll be just as bad if not worse than it is now if you do just one at a time.
     

    ImperialDonut

    Overlord of the North Pole
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    That last sentence is completely right btw, that\'s why my post grew to the size it is after a while ^^

    Overheauling weapons will make shields incompatible, changing shields will make the current weapons incompatible and changing either of them will probably require significant changes to the power system to compensate for the fact that constant powerdrain will be much less of a thing.

    (not to mention the many intricate changes within the weapons and shields systems)
     
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    That missile bug confirmation is a very interesting thing. I\'ll have to test it some more. Actually, I wouldn\'t mind it if it would be a planned feature for some types of weapons, like missiles to bypass shields, or possibly for shields to take ony small fraction of the power off, while rest would have to be soaked by the hull - though I understand your concern about some ships being totally defenseless then. That could be possibly solved by both, well, not relying completely on only one type of defense but more importantly - on balancing hulls, possibly giving them different resistance values against different weapons.

    I also think that lot of problem with hull seeming weak is the matter of scale. You can make very big ships but most players don\'t give them relatively thick hull - from what I saw in ship repository on this site, even supposedly space-battle-superiority-titans have plenty of shield generators, yes, but ridiculously thin plating - single, or at most double layer of reinforced (and sometimes not even that!) hull. That I can honestly call a design flaw. Yes, I understand that it may be for the sake of aesthetics or to not increase the weight too much, but if you want to make ship both good looking and functional, some trade-offs are a natural thing.

    As a fun fact, when making small to lower-medium tonnage ships on my server (relatively, going by the world where 5 mass is drones, 75 is heavy gunship and 400 is a small, but not overly light carrier) I must say, their missiles shot by fittingly-sized launchers were useful against layer of reinforced hull with shields, but hardly overpowered.

    It is very possibly though, as I didn\'t do extensive testing in this regard, that power of missiles gets higher faster than the size of the ship growth would indicate, resulting in overpowered launchers. Again, uneven (forgot official mathematical term) progression as the one suggested in my earlier post could balance that, possibly.

    By the way, missiles are small fry. It\'s the disintegrator blocks that have to be balanced if you want to have fair space battle where armored mass 600 battleships aren\'t taken out by single, mass 6 fliers loaded with those explosives.
     
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    You may already be aware of this, but in case \"if\" your not, the reason you never see multi-layer hulls ships is because it doesn\'t help whatsoever against ANY weapon type.

    Once the shields go, antimatter one-shots them, and missiles... dear god, missiles... they don\'t give a damn what the hull is made of, or how thick it is, missiles currently do their damage to EVERY block in their radius, regardless of how thick their armor is.

    Example: a ships has 4 layers of hardened hull with effectively 400 hp (200hp with 50% damage mitigation.) and a missile hits it that does 401 damage. The first hull is destroyed, but instead of the second block taking 1 damage, it also takes 401 damage, and so on and so forth, meaning it kills every block in it\'s ABSURD blast radius, with large enough radius it just outright makes most ships \"disappear\".

    As for disintegrators, I havn\'t played around with them much, but at least they take the suicide bomber with it. But I agree, they need reworking, I\'d love to see them made into launchable bombs that propperly scale in damage, rather than used as battering ram alkaida ships.
     
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    Like I\'ve said, it depends on the scale. On my server, what\'s a relatively heavy gunship is merely 75 of mass. Proportional launcher in it\'s case, while quite effective, isn\'t instakill and AMC also won\'t get through reinforced hull without fire being concentrated on it for quite a few seconds and with shields being down all this time.

    As for disintegrators, they\'re stronger than missiles and you don\'t necessarily die with them. I\'ve made a few ships which have the core still outside of the explosion range so I could take a big ship out and still be fine. The only problem is that after using disintegrators, you have to rebuild the part with them, but it\'s insignificant price to pay for cheap way to take you nearly anything player can build in this game.
     
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    Black, I link you to my suggestions topic, do note though , that this could work nicely with both yours and Donut\'s suggestions if done correctly:

    http://star-made.org/content/weapon-and-defense-module-thoughts