Turn Cannon/Cannon Weapons into six-shooters - Fixing the Machine gun issue

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    So a while back I was reading a thread about looking at how it's not just the dps in weapons that matters(I'm sorry! I forgot who posted it! You can site yourself unknown author!). The thread talked about how m/p weapons, although having 14dps/block, needed way more power(all the power caps!) and waited so long that the combat shield regen turned off for a full 30 seconds, by far enough to recharge any decent shield setup. Compared to c/c, c/c's need a tenth or hundredth of the power per shot(You need practically a dedicated c/c frigate to use the full startup 50k power cap every shot compared to a meager 5-6 block m/p system taking 54k cap), but also doing constant damage, so against any fair(or even slightly unfair!) sized opponent a c/c system will eventually wear down their shields. I forgot about the post for a while, but after the holidays I had an idea about the problem.

    c/c systems could instead turn into a "six-shooter" type weapon. By six-shooter I mean the computer would have a setting where you could set the number of shots per charge, going from one to 100. What you set the number to would be the amount of shots you could fire on a full charge(your ammo). You also could set the recharge time, this would set how fast you could "reload" you c/c system. It would go from 1 second to 60, the longer you set it, the slower it will charge. Why set it slow? because the faster it goes the more power it uses. doing it in one second would take a massive amount of power, all in one second, doing it in sixty would make it only take the same amount of power over a continuous 60 seconds. This would mean a less power focused ship could have a long recharge, while a more power centered ship could have the advantages of a much faster reload, at the cost needing way more powercaps, and a much larger power grid. Most ships could find a good middlepoint where that ship could just barely power the reload. In this way c/c's would work like a jump drive in their first stage.

    When the c/c system was fully charged, hitting the fire button would fire a shot. Shots would have a reload time proportionate to the amount in the "magazine", so 100 shot bursters would shoot like the old c/c's, but a three shot alpha striker would have to wait between shots. To prevent one shot alphas from having no reload time, the reload would apply after every shot, before you recharge.

    Finally, damage. The system would have the usual 10dps, but the charge would always have the power of 30 seconds of fire, so every block had 300 damage. However, the damage would be divided by the amount of shots in the system, every block would do 300 damage per shot on single, alpha strikes, or 3 damage/block/shot on 100 shot systems. The power usage would be the same as other systems, to charge up fully you would need 3000 power/block, which would scale up like other systems.

    I can imagine the usage of this system, some fighters have little 10 shot magazines they have to reload every few seconds, and promote burst fire systems where your little turret swivels around and shoots three powerful shots at one fighter, before recharging. You could say "More power to the Weapons!" and make the reload time way shorter for a short booster to your ship, or pull it all out to focus on shielding or engines.

    Side Notes
    There would be a switch for the old c/c system, just with 5dps instead of 1o.
    AI could be set to "burst fire" or "Slow shot" with a variable, and when AI gets improved(hint hint devs!) it could have options like using certain events or when receiving a certain message from other systems(shields down!, More Allies!, or Retreat! messages from some sensor or logic group) to add or subtract from the reload time.
    The ratio of primary to secondary would, instead of increasing fire rate and decreasing damage, would expand out the possibilities of shots per charge, starting with a max of six and going up from there, as well as as your system got larger you could have longer recharge rates, starting with a max of 10 recharge rate and min of 2 recharge wait, to prevent 1 bock alpha damage systems and mini ships with checkerboards doing 3 damage per shot each 10 times per second.

    All numbers are representations, none are fixed.
     
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    Sounds like balance hell and a min/maxers wet dream.

    Can't really say I would support this unless more discussion opens my eyes.
     

    Jaaskinal

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    The reason why high alpha weapons (balance wise) require high capacity is because it makes them just slightly harder to design around. This is because having higher alpha, and the same DPS, is more desirable against things like shields. Requiring that power up front is necessary to maintain this balance.

    Your suggestion is either a little bit hard to read, or I'm a bit more tired than I think, (Perhaps a combination of the two is to blame.) but if what I think your saying is that you want to fire a weapon up front, then have it take power as it recharges, then that would be poorly balanced.

    In my opinion, that's not a very good way to balance the game. Think about your options; you could either have weapon A, or weapon B. Weapon A would have five seconds worth of alpha, would have the same DPS as everything else, and would require you to have capacitors. Weapon B could be configured to have the same alpha as weapon A, maintaining the same DPS, and would have no need for capacitors as they would be superfluous. I'd certainly be one to pick weapon B, and I imagine everyone else would be as well.

    If it's not about that, please clarify, this could be a very interesting suggestion that I'm just not getting.
     
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    In my opinion, that's not a very good way to balance the game. Think about your options; you could either have weapon A, or weapon B. Weapon A would have five seconds worth of alpha, would have the same DPS as everything else, and would require you to have capacitors. Weapon B could be configured to have the same alpha as weapon A, maintaining the same DPS, and would have no need for capacitors as they would be superfluous. I'd certainly be one to pick weapon B, and I imagine everyone else would be as well.

    If it's not about that, please clarify, this could be a very interesting suggestion that I'm just not getting.
    But Weapon B would have extremely long reload times, therefore diminishing the damage, you need to charge a minute to fire a single shot, and have to be constantly pressing the fire key to charge it(it doesn't autocharge) The damage per block would still be 10, but the power usage would be a total of 3,000 per block(500/second with 1 min. reload time), so any large size would need capacitors(make it have a really slow tick rate like 0.1 seconds if you want even more alpha power usage). Because exponential power usage on weapons would apply, it would be extremely hard to make very large weapons with actual fast reload time.

    Maybe make the max reload time 2-3 min. and the charge 4,500.
     

    NeonSturm

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    I disagree with parts.
    You say, if you set reload to 1 second instead of 60, you need power quicker, not more.
    That would only encourage a 1/60 sized missile system on perma-fire to do more damage with less blocks.
    A year or two ago, we had such a system which let you manually enter range, damage, fire-rate and projectile-speed and it was removed.
    But back then we only had cannons and no slaves.


    I think you should be able to choose the fire-pattern and weapon style freely and the game balances the damage or tells you how many blocks you need for it.

    Let's say, I want a weapon that shots 2 projectiles simultaneously (2 outputs) 3 times with 1 second delay and then has 5 seconds reload (8 seconds total).
    The only way this is currently possible is by having 6 cannons with a reload of 8 seconds. Probably you fire below ability or take compromises by a longer reload.

    It's balance-able with good math somebody has to provide (I did from time to time).
    But the more difficult thing is to convince [:schema:The Cat] to make it possible, try it out. Or get a shared community voice on a certain solution.​

    The problem with high reload time is:
    Assume your ship is 10'000 blocks.
    You are attacked by 4x 3'000 blocks.

    If you can 1-shot the shield of one of these and kill his turret connection points with the missile's AOE, you suffer less damage for the rest of the combat.

    That means you are fighting 3x 3'000 blocks and 1x a ship worth 100 blocks (combat rating).

    Ofc you can say your weapon cools-down, you can't use it.
    But it's always easy to spend energy elsewhere, or jump out and leave the attackers with their damaged ship.

    You may spend the energy a continuous weapon would use and which you don't need for the next 2:30 seconds on passive ion, boosting your shields if this is still a thing (haven't used it for 1/2 year).​
     
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    I'm all for burstfire weapon modes, but they need to behave like all other high alpha weapons to be balanced.

    If I can make my autocannon shoot six shots in a second while instantly consuming 60 power it will be fine.

    The most important use for burstfire weapon modes would largely be to "loan" reload time.

    If a gun has a 2 second reload time, you could fire up to five shots at once, but you'd pay with the power up front AND the reload for the burstfire for 10 seconds.

    The main use of this is being able to use multiple weapons on my ship.

    I could make my lasers burstfire, and my autocannons burstfire, and my missiles wouldn't need to burstfire since they already have a long reload time. That way I could use multiple weapons with high reload times. Obviously missiles and such should not have a burstfire option unless they fire sufficiently fast.
     
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    NeonSturm

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    If missiles would have burst-fire it would be not different from 40 heat-seekers spawning at once or 40 weapon computers synchronized by logic.

    The most important use for burstfire weapon modes would largely be to "loan" reload time.
    The best description I've seen!

    However, you have to differentiate 3 cases:
    • ((format: "action, definition of time-span => effect"))
    • "loan" short time, about 1/2 or less of the kill time (vs many smaller enemies) => doesn't matter much.
    • "loan" medium time, about 1/2 or less of the kill time (vs equal-mass enemy) => a bit stronger than without alpha-damage.
    • "loan" extremely long time, about a whole year (extreme example) => Weapon group size lowers until it's mass/size is negligible.
    You have to avoid to loan time over the time a usual combat takes, or you end up with only paying for enough capacitors.
    The extreme is where "the capacitors feed DPS, rather the weapon group deals it"

    There should also be better weapons which use "Delay".
    It grows more powerful up to hitting "charge-time".
    Cancelling the shot may return some energy invested.
    Delaying the shot "over charge-time" continues to drain energy although maybe not as much as for charging it.

    This makes it more difficult to aim, especially small targets which move erratically, because you don't know if it will move when the shot gets off.
    Also, this adds a minimum-time-to kill. Even if you could kill an incoming torpedo or fighter in 0.1 seconds you can't with fire delay – this makes this weapon ineffective against targets which it overkills.
    There can also be fluid-overcharge weapons.
    The weapon charges by 1 each game-frame.
    It has a capacity of 2-3 seconds of fire.
    It can fire whenever it's charges exceed the requirement, thus the fire-rate and pattern is flexible.

    This allows to shot when you get a good aim and store damage while you are aiming.​
     
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    If missiles would have burst-fire it would be not different from 40 heat-seekers spawning at once or 40 weapon computers synchronized by logic.


    The best description I've seen!

    However, you have to differentiate 3 cases:
    • ((format: "action, definition of time-span => effect"))
    • "loan" short time, about 1/2 or less of the kill time (vs many smaller enemies) => doesn't matter much.
    • "loan" medium time, about 1/2 or less of the kill time (vs equal-mass enemy) => a bit stronger than without alpha-damage.
    • "loan" extremely long time, about a whole year (extreme example) => Weapon group size lowers until it's mass/size is negligible.
    You have to avoid to loan time over the time a usual combat takes, or you end up with only paying for enough capacitors.
    The extreme is where "the capacitors feed DPS, rather the weapon group deals it"

    There should also be better weapons which use "Delay".
    It grows more powerful up to hitting "charge-time".
    Cancelling the shot may return some energy invested.
    Delaying the shot "over charge-time" continues to drain energy although maybe not as much as for charging it.

    This makes it more difficult to aim, especially small targets which move erratically, because you don't know if it will move when the shot gets off.
    Also, this adds a minimum-time-to kill. Even if you could kill an incoming torpedo or fighter in 0.1 seconds you can't with fire delay – this makes this weapon ineffective against targets which it overkills.
    There can also be fluid-overcharge weapons.
    The weapon charges by 1 each game-frame.
    It has a capacity of 2-3 seconds of fire.
    It can fire whenever it's charges exceed the requirement, thus the fire-rate and pattern is flexible.

    This allows to shot when you get a good aim and store damage while you are aiming.​
    As long as the max charge was set by the amount of modules attatched to it.

    Actually, now that I think about it, maybe instead of changing a combo into it, make it an effect, a "burst fire" effect computer, that would make weapons have a charge time poportionate to the ratio (primary/third slot), the max charge the amount of weapon modules. Not sure how may shots it would fire(or how you could customize it, maybe another little slider) but I think cannons and missiles and pulses would have amount of shots, and beams would have the rate of discharge(set the fraction used, cannons/missiles/pulses- one fraction/shot, beams- one fraction/second)
     
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    NeonSturm

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    Actually, now that I think about it, maybe instead of changing a combo into it, make it an effect, a "burst fire" effect computer
    You can not have 2 effects currently. (Ion + Burst)
    I think there are too many options for just 2 modifiers (slave + effect).
     
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    Actually the entirety of my idea was to add burstfire modes for low cooldown weapons.

    Obviously you shouldn't be able to burstfire missiles.

    You should only be able to burstfire cannons and charge beams.

    The way the beam charging works is that you spend a small amount of energy over an extended period of time.

    Ideally you spend all the energy you would usually need for the target alpha damage, but you charge it up over longer than its normal reload time so you don't need all those capacitors.

    A high alpha weapon with capacitors is straight up better than a chargable beam in this way, so that players only use when they need to IE when power supply tapers off on large ships massive doomsday beams can be built to maximize alpha because you simply can't generate enough power at that scale to power a normal beam of that sort.

    The beams should have a choice between multihitting and singlehitting in their configuration menu.