Brainstorm This Transdimensional Gateway Mechanic

[Magrim]

The way I like to imagine starmade is that every game is a different dimension. Whether it's your creative single player world or the pvp server you and your faction live on. They would all be unique within the multiverse, each with different characteristics based on server config values. Which presumably would be how an actual multiverse would behave. I bet you've already guessed where this is going.

I know this has been suggested before. So many times in fact that it should be in the fsm. With that being said, yes I am suggesting a way to travel in-game from server to server or single player game to single player game. However, instead of stopping there I'm trying to flesh out a mechanic that could make it happen without breaking server economies, and need some community input to get it right.

For those that don't know why this could potentially be a big problem, the reason is this: You build a titan for free in your creative world then use this gateway to bring it onto a server, or you walk through with your pockets full of crafting mats. Entirely undesirable.

This is how we stop the exploit: First, it should be off by default allowing admins to opt in their server if they choose. Second, make it cost something to bring any item from one dimension to another. It doesn't need to cost anything on the initial server, only the target server and this is something server admins can control.

A new resource of some type could be created for this mechanic, forcing players to be established in the target universe to pay for the cost of transferring their belongings. For the sake of simplicity lets say it will take one unit of resource to transfer one block or item. Depending on how difficult it is to acquire said resource, it may or may not be more convenient to build your cruiser there instead of sending it through the gate. I would like to point out that players should be able to transfer for free if they have nothing in their inventory.

Server admins will control:

• What servers can be connected.
• Which players are allowed through.
• The size of the block cap allowed through, including inventory.
• The resource cost of blocks and items coming through.
• Other stuff I cant remember.

Im tossing around a few ideas in my head, tell me what you think.

• Add a half life to this resource, giving it a limited amount of time in an inventory before its useless.
• Consume faction points instead of a new resource.
• The ability to "charge" warpgates, teleporters, and maybe jump drives with this resource in order to open the gateway.

 

[SkylordLuke]

Interesting idea,it would be really hard indeed to balance this IF devs decided to even consider this idea,just because the fact that you can manipulate with files in singleplayer in all kinds of ways we know and dont know.

 

[Magrim]

Interesting idea,it would be really hard indeed to balance this IF devs decided to even consider this idea,just because the fact that you can manipulate with files in singleplayer in all kinds of ways we know and dont know.

I feel like balance would land squarely on the shoulders of the server admins and be dependent on what the economy is like on that server only. It doesn't matter what the other server is like because their economy wont effect the target server, even if it is from a creative world to an rp server they will still have to work to bring those blocks into existence. With that in mind it might even be fairly easy for admins to balance.

As for file manipulation, I'm not the most tech savvy, but I imagine it may not be much different then manipulating a blueprint and trying to upload it to a server. Which i know nothing about btw, but i thought there was some kind of safeguard in place to prevent this.

 

[nightrune]

One way that I imagine this working is having a single "Origin" universe. This is the universe that has the configuration and permissions setup there. Each new server must say that it is a "leaf" of the origin or of another leaf. I think the only way to enforce is through a series of trust, and I think the only way to do that have the list of accepted servers remain on the origin. It would work like DNS currently works. To verify you ask the origin if the server is allowed to transfer citizens.

 

[MacThule]

This is how we stop the exploit: First, it should be off by default allowing admins to opt in their server if they choose. Second, make it cost something to bring any item from one dimension to another. It doesn't need to cost anything on the initial server, only the target server and this is something server admins can control.

Or, since this is interdimensional travel we're talking about, the servads set a very strict limit on the mass than can come through from a given galaxy per hour (or per day) across all gates. Like 1K. The mass limit slowly regenerates; so even if someone flies a 1K ship through leaving you unable to do the same, at least if you wait a couple minutes you can fly a 3-5 block micro through.

Or, when two servers link up, they each make a copy of the other server's files. Every time an entity from a linked server wants to come through, the destination server performs a file check to ensure that the origin server's files (other than BPs & DB files) are identical to the copy on record or the entity upload is rejected.

Both of these require less dev work than creating a new resource dynamic, and therefore make server linkups more likely to happen. I like this approach to it a lot because it's simple and can be set up using dynamics that are already in-game except the function that transfers a client's connection from one server to another. It's also very easily controlled because gates equate to specific points where connections will transfer.

 

[FlyingDebris]

What happens if one server owner sets their gate up to send ships through that would be entirely overpowered or way too cheap in the universe they send to? What about differing server rules?

 

[MacThule]

What happens if one server owner sets their gate up to send ships through that would be entirely overpowered or way too cheap in the universe they send to?

The OP recognized and attempted to address this. I also made suggestions regarding this. Got any thoughts?

This is how we stop the exploit: First, it should be off by default allowing admins to opt in their server if they choose. Second, make it cost something to bring any item from one dimension to another. It doesn't need to cost anything on the initial server, only the target server and this is something server admins can control.

Regarding:

What about differing server rules?

All links between servers would be reliant on the mutual decision of both server controllers. If each server checked a pre-approved copy of the other's config files for consistency every time that server attempted to upload an entity, there would be no problem.

Regarding in-game rules ("don't spawn camp", etc), this would be admin's choice. Exactly like it currently is. If you don't like the servers a server links to, then you don't like that server and shouldn't play it, just like you wouldn't if the rules of that server itself were unappealing to you. Admins will just have to be selective about the servers they link to.

 

[cyberus111]

With multiplayer to multiplayer wouldn't using the same mechanic as buying blueprints work?

In essence the ship would be saved to blueprint at origin gate, the BP transmitted to destination server, then the destination server sends back the "local" cost, if they match (ie: both servers use the same cost mechanism) or the destination is cheaper then you get the go ahead, if the destination server has higher costs you have to pay the difference to go.

Now I'm guessing that all materials other than metas (logbook, SY design files, etc) in personal inventory would have to be in the ships cargo (part of the BP) to be included in the cost, otherwise even the low 2k personal limit would most likely be abused by someone carrying an inventory filled with low volume high value computers.

As mentioned above, this (and the entire concept) will only work with servers with compatible setups and server owners that trust each other since an admin could abuse his power by giving himself a bajillion credits, filling a titans cargo bays to the bulkheads and making a transfer.

 

[MacThule]

This brings up a good point. BP meta items would have to be prohibited, since you could bring in hundreds of filled BPs for almost no mass.

Honestly, I don't see bringing things in from other servers as needing to have a cost, if the mass is extremely limited. 1K is the mass of a fighter or shuttle. Who cares if someone gates in a free fighter every few hours?

Many servers include filled BPs in new player inventories and most of these are more than 1K mass. Players need at least a shuttle or something to get around in, and visiting an alternate dimension would require some sort of conveyance.

The "cost" approach sounds byzantine to implement and to use. You'd need credits or resources IN the destination dimension already so you could pay for your arrival. So you'd have to first port yourself there, for free I assume, and raise some money. Why wouldn't you just port yourself there with a full inventory and build a ship once you're there? And at that point it's just saving time to come through with the whole ship instead of forcing people to gate-grind to get through. Assuming the point of connecting servers is to allow interaction, rather than create new chores for them.

Also, note that the cost thing feeds into elitist domination of servers. If any size ships are allowed through so long as you pay the price, then large, well-established players and groups will just be porting in tons of additional ships from their SP or other servers, while new players or infrequent players will be disadvantaged. There are already enough factors contributing to the dominance of players with extreme amounts of spare time to invest without adding more. I think that it would be much more balanced to say only so much mass is able to safely move between any two dimensions over a given period of time. So unless you're with a powerful existing clan or inter-server faction, supporting a cost-based server-server transfer that allows kids to port in titans is actually really going to suck for you.

 

[whooplaah]

So I'm moving between Server A and Server B, and bringing my ship costs X. Server B, my destination, is what determines the cost and that's where I pay it. So how do I get that money?

Before I can bring my ship and pay X cost, I have to move to server B with an empty inventory (free transfer). I then have to amass resources to cover price X and own them on Server B. Now once I have the required credits, where do I put them?

I return to Server A, get my ship, and transfer to Server B. How do I pay the cost X? Do my server resources get deducted automatically from my character save? Do I pay ahead of time? Is there a bank where I can store transfer-funds? If it is FP related, how does a faction control whether they are being exploited by noobs? How does a player earn FP in a server where all the systems near spawn are already claimed?

Next question...

If we have this 'multiverse' set up, what happens when a verse collapses? Servers go up and down all the time, especially private-personal servers. What about all the resources I had in that verse? Can we get them to transfer to my inter-verse profile, or are they just lost? This could really influence whether players use the feature.

 

[kiraen]

Simple solutions.

1. Destination server determines all costs and limits.
2. Credits do not transfer or are limited. (config option)
   
3. No cargo transfer. If it's in cargo, it doesn't transfer. Player inventory is ok, just not a linked cargo.
   
4. A blueprint would be considered cargo. You can transfer, but it will be empty in the other side. (config option)
   
5. Ship takes damage on transit. Cost is now 'time'. It's going to take you time to build up the credits for repairs or to do the repairs yourself. (config option)

$0.02

 

[Magrim]

One way that I imagine this working is having a single "Origin" universe. This is the universe that has the configuration and permissions setup there. Each new server must say that it is a "leaf" of the origin or of another leaf. I think the only way to enforce is through a series of trust, and I think the only way to do that have the list of accepted servers remain on the origin. It would work like DNS currently works. To verify you ask the origin if the server is allowed to transfer citizens.

There is at least one thing i wish to accomplish with this suggestion. That is the ability to have multiple gateways at my base on my single player world, leading to various dimensions. Gates to my brother's and friend's single player worlds and to any servers I wish to frequent. Likely none of these will have the same config values.

Or, since this is interdimensional travel we're talking about, the servads set a very strict limit on the mass than can come through from a given galaxy per hour (or per day) across all gates. Like 1K. The mass limit slowly regenerates; so even if someone flies a 1K ship through leaving you unable to do the same, at least if you wait a couple minutes you can fly a 3-5 block micro through.

Or, when two servers link up, they each make a copy of the other server's files. Every time an entity from a linked server wants to come through, the destination server performs a file check to ensure that the origin server's files (other than BPs & DB files) are identical to the copy on record or the entity upload is rejected.

Interesting approach with the mass limit. I was thinking a total block count to prevent super titans from coming through, but I like your idea. However, this idea removes the need for a player to be established before transferring material through, which i feel is an important part of balancing. It requires you to be invested in the economy of that server before you can affect it with this mechanic. The server file check is also a good idea as an added safeguard against exploits.

Both of these require less dev work than creating a new resource dynamic, and therefore make server linkups more likely to happen. I like this approach to it a lot because it's simple and can be set up using dynamics that are already in-game except the function that transfers a client's connection from one server to another. It's also very easily controlled because gates equate to specific points where connections will transfer.

I remember hearing that late game consumable resources will be a thing when capital ships are added, so I'm kind of flying with that assumption in mind.

What happens if one server owner sets their gate up to send ships through that would be entirely overpowered or way too cheap in the universe they send to?

If it is too cheap then that would be the fault of the server admins since they control the cost of block transfers on their server.

As far as spawn camping is concerned MacThule, I agree, but I imagine the gateways to be built maintained and controlled by players and factions meaning if you allow your faction's gate to be spawn camped then you just might deserve it.

 

[MacThule]

However, this idea removes the need for a player to be established before transferring material through, which i feel is an important part of balancing.

Can you give me a rundown of what you mean?

I sounds like your vision is that in order to use an in-game gate from one server to another, a player must first go to the destination server by logging out, logging into the destination, building up, then logging out, logging back into their SP or whatever, then using a gate into the other server to bring something through and I can't see why anyone would ever bother doing this instead of simply building up on the destination server in the first place except to somehow exploit a loophole in the gating process.

I feel like there's something fundamental I'm missing.

 

[FlyingDebris]

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but this is a general access thing and can connect to any other server with it active? If so, what happens if someone starts up their own server and just spawns in the required materials to send over fleets of titans? There's no real way to defend against that without either making it pointless or huge overhauls and it essentially opens every participating server up to someone with a temporary server and admin commands.

 

[kiraen]

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but this is a general access thing and can connect to any other server with it active? If so, what happens if someone starts up their own server and just spawns in the required materials to send over fleets of titans? There's no real way to defend against that without either making it pointless or huge overhauls and it essentially opens every participating server up to someone with a temporary server and admin commands.

No. This should require admin privileges, if not server access, to activate these gates.
The source admin would have to build the gate and query the destination, but limitations would be defined by the destination. The link would only be established once the destination confirms either thru admin commands or config settings.
Anything other then that is ridiculous for the reasons you stated.

 

[MacThule]

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but this is a general access thing and can connect to any other server with it active? If so, what happens if someone starts up their own server and just spawns in the required materials to send over fleets of titans? There's no real way to defend against that without either making it pointless or huge overhauls and it essentially opens every participating server up to someone with a temporary server and admin commands.

I think you're wrong ;P

I understood from the OP that it would only be available between servers whose admins had set them up to link together.

 

[Lecic]

This is a completely unnecessary addition, and a waste of developer time. If two server owners want to "link" their servers, they already could. Just have a script to automatically export and then wipe a sector with, say, a specific station name in it (ex. PLS_TRANSFER_ME_173) after a player pays a certain amount of credits, which is shared with the other server, then imported to a sector with a specific matching station name (ex. PLS_TRANSFER_HERE_173).

 

[kiraen]

Actually, Schine has already said they want to do something like this.
It is not a priority tho. My guess is late alpha at the earliest, aka next year.

 

[FlyingDebris]

I think you're wrong ;P

I understood from the OP that it would only be available between servers whose admins had set them up to link together.

First, it should be off by default allowing admins to opt in their server if they choose.

Sounds like an 'add to the pool' thing to me.

 

[Magrim]

What I'm after is an optional way to connect any server to any other server or single player game without screwing up the economies of those servers, while maintaining immersion and being unique and fun. You can absolutely just log out of your server then log onto another server, but that isn't unique and it does break immersion. It might be seen by quite a few to be an unnecessary addition but I would have to disagree.

I want to be able to have inter server wars and with that comes the need to prevent exploitation, which is why a resource cost model was suggested. Sure you can build the normal mining, refining, crafting infrastructure on the target server, but you have already done that on your home server and the same old grind is the same old grind. With this suggestion the only infrastructure you need is that of harvesting this resource to get your ships into the new universe.

Also I would like to link my single player world with that of my brother's, when he is on I could fly through a portal and arrive in his universe to show off my ship and hang out. He would probably set his configs to allow me in without a resource cost and I would do the same for him. It would be like we where playing in the same game just different parts of the universe.