Torpedo Bombers

[Mork2]

What a lot of people don't understand is if they made a modern day battleship with all the modern day systems (missiles/cannons/advanced armour, possibly lasers/railguns, there working on these today) this would be extremely dangerous to small aircraft. However for a number of reasons no one will build one.

It would be very expensive but cheaper than a carrier.
It can only be in one place, it can't project power over a large area like a carrier.
Its really good at killing things in range but its not really great at a lot of other things a carrier can do.

The main reason why a battleship doesn't exist at the moment is it is far to expensive for its limited a role to justify the expense.
Strategically they are designed to be like a tank in ground warfare. (I'm going there and if you don't want me to you have to stop me) and for quite a while that hasn't been necessary to destroy something.

Also the viability of large ships comes down to powerful small weapons or powerful defences. If something very small can wreck something big then there will be nobody would use expensive big ships. If defences are better than weapons it turns into a slugging match and then bigger ships are generally better. When its about break even then small ships in numbers can also win with large losses. So it all generally comes down to your technology available.

I prefer big ships, its what I build. I would like the warheads to be available for bombers to do damage to titans is fine. This will allow small ships to do damage to big ships and in numbers be very dangerous to big ships. It would be nice if AI drones could actually try to ram if they had warheads fitted. But if you have massive damage with warheads it will all end up being small ships ramming stuff,preferably cloaked. You know somebody is going to do it repeatedly. You can make a shipyard to make a batch of them docked to a rail....If that's what you want on your server, fine its your server, but essentially anyone that wants to make a larger than small ship will probably leave once they figure it out.

A lot of the earlier posts had massive amounts of armour. Unfortunately with the mass per block changes it makes a lot of them very slow to accelerate. I've had to limit the amount of hardened armour so I can decently accelerate.

 

[Lecic]

This will allow small ships to do damage to big ships and in numbers be very dangerous to big ships.

Unneeded. Large numbers of small ships are already dangerous to big ships. 20% of ship's mass in drones will typically massacre that ship.

 

[Gasboy]

Unneeded. Large numbers of small ships are already dangerous to big ships. 20% of ship's mass in drones will typically massacre that ship.

True. But some folks like to actually do the fighting, instead of the game fighting itself.

 

[shadowulf]

OK, the argument of drones is valid, but I have not seen my arguenent. So Spartan, you say four independent ten warhead missiles are more effect tive than 200. What about a ten warhead missiles with 40 five warhead docked missiles set to logic release? That seems like a crippler, at least.

Don't get me wrong, I like your efferts to bring balance to this game. However, I don't agree with their blast radius and damage. I'd think you should encourage the trade-off of multiple small missiles vs a single ship-killer. My opinion, though. Its your server.

Also, just because they armor the s#&t out of their vessels, doesn't mean this couldn't/shouldn't be added to the game. A small craft by itself has very little chance against a titan, but ten, twenty? It should Give a moments pause. Drones are brutally effective at destruction, but what if I want to fire the salvo that took down the titan that's been harassing us? We all want to be heroes, but don't want to die. I like this idea. Just because you don't want to shouldn't stop everyone from doing it. However, care should be taken to balance it. Hell, maybe AI should be unable to be the same entity that has warheads, due to chemical erosion of nearby blocks, or some justification.

 

[Spartan-228]

Well I have been working on balancing the warheads, but I have been finding that players, wile finding them a unique tool. Don't like using them a grate deal. One reason seams that when I first unveiled them and people started playing with them, there were quite a few deaths to misshapes. In fact warheads can be more dangerous to yourself than others if not careful.

Now as to that thing about the one big torpedo and then a lot of smaller ones. That might work, but then again you have to try to use it without blowing yourself up. My experience is that you want to keep your torpedo system stupidly simple, or you are likely to kill yourself.

As for AI well I wouldn't worry about it, AI and warhead weapons don't mix because the AI is stupid. And using the push effect, a weapon, and AI to aim doesn't work any more, try it its like watching a drunk sailor. Also with all those warheads and other things you need it is getting to the point that push effect cant really move the torpedo an more. We have turned off the inertia dampening, but the torps still have a very slow acceleration speed. So the best method other than ramming some one yourself is to use an unguided warhead torpedo and get as close as you dare before firing, or you can just use them as long range bombardment weapons against stations, if you don't mined using a hundred missiles and only having a hand full actually hit the target. Oh and mines are fun to.

As for armor and acceleration I don't know what your problem is. I mean you are making capital ships not fighters, of course they are going to be a little slow, also thick armor is just only one part of it. When trying to build a defense against torpedoes it also helps to have internal bulkheads sectioning off your ship. This way if you are hit , the blast wont penetrate into your ships as far as if it was all subsystems rapped in a shell.​

 

[Dr. Whammy]

Did somebody say "Torpedo Bombers"? I can't believe I missed out on this thread. I think the key to near-universally enjoyable warhead use is for the server admin to decide on a reasonable damage output and blast radius for warheads and to use a server/community honor system. There has to be a balance; explosions are fun but no one wants their Star Destroyer, Enterprise, Eve Online, etc masterpiece capital ship chewed up by a shield ignoring bomb drone spam. Nor do they want a torpedo to enter a 2 meter exhaust port and "force" them to build a second Death Star...

Currently the default 2000 damage/8m radius for warheads is pretty much useless but you can use the block behavior config xml file to set the damage and blast radius based on your preferences. I have mine set to 500,000 damage with a 25m radius, as I think it creates a more realistic effect without going overboard. It hurts (a lot) when it hits but it won't alpha-kill a 3000 mass frigate. It's also limited by how many weapons of this type your ship can carry.

I think part of the fun of playing with warheads is the possibility of your weapons exploding if designed/handled poorly. There's an element of danger/risk associated with them that is alluring but this also forces players to be smart in their design process; often rewarding ingenuity/creativity while punishing poor craftsmanship/carelessness.

This is a "pocket Bomber" I've been playing around with. This little guy works well as a player-operated, carrier-based strike craft. Just like the Air Force/Navy, you can fly in, drop ordnance, then turn and burn. If you run into enemy fighters, you can fight back with missiles and a light rail gun. These secondary weapons allow AI to use it as an anti-fighter/star ship harasser to decent effect. Fortunately (or unfortunately depending on your point of view), AI can't fire logic-based weapons like torpedoes. Yet...

 

[aceface]

Okay, here.

I'll give you two Rwandan pirates with AK's in a fishing dingy, and I'll take a Nimitz class aircraft carrier. Now show me how a small fighter is supposed to realistically take down a titan on their own.

Although, in all fairness, a titan that even blinks at a million damage bomb going off isn't much of a titan.

I think the point here is that those rwandan pirates got their hands on a couple of FGM-146 Javelins.

Even with this increased damage spartan made, it wont kill a titan unless you have a crap tonne of warheads. A cloaked ship can only have a limited capacity, a bigger non cloakable ship will have to deal with the risk of the warheads being dodged or being blown up by their own warheads.

 

[Dr. Whammy]

I think the point here is that those rwandan pirates got their hands on a couple of FGM-146 Javelins.

Even with this increased damage spartan made, it wont kill a titan unless you have a crap tonne of warheads. A cloaked ship can only have a limited capacity, a bigger non cloakable ship will have to deal with the risk of the warheads being dodged or being blown up by their own warheads.

Agreed. Unless you set the damage to the millions, you have very little to worry about; as small ships will dodge your shots and larger ones can armor tank and will be harder to kill due to sheer size.

This is what 6 individual warhead torpedoes set at 500,000 damage a piece will do to standard armor.

This is what a couple of 5-warhead mini-mines will do to advanced armor on a 2500 mass, 100 meter long ship. This ship didn't even overheat from this damage.

Also, I can personally testify as to the risk involved with using these things. I've made VERY good friends with plex undeathinators and the admin load feature in the catalog...

 

[Dr. Whammy]

SR-SB1 (Dare Devil)

An ultra light deep space reconnaissance craft/stealth bomber.

Dimensions: 11m long, 11m wide, 6m tall, mass; 12.4.
Equipment: 2 torpedoes, cloaking device, radar jammer. Both the cloak and jammer can be run continuously while moving.

Armed only with 2 torpedoes; this little guy can be used to sneak behind enemy lines, scout, grab intel, damage or destroy high value targets then fly back home.

 

[TheKingOfSpace]

---

 

[Gmodism]

Frankly, I don't understand why warheads are in the game.
torpedo == dumb fire missile.

Because:
1 option of self destruction off systems and parts.
2 they bypass shield damage and that is quite cool if one wants to board a ship.
they are dumb yes but what is needed is an other option in bobby AI: seeker missile
[DOUBLEPOST=1444335471,1444335207][/DOUBLEPOST]What we would need is an other option in Bobby AI; Missile.
that would make the torpedo/missile (ship) search a target and collide with it, thus igniting warheads, and/or even detonate them at a close range, this would be made with the bobby sending out a activation signal at a set range from target.

 

[Master_Artificer]

I can here looking for ideas based on torpedo bombers, and get rants on how some people think x and y is unbalanced and or game breaking.

Disappoint.

Oh, wanted to point something out! A lot of you using WW2 examples, need to realize that the skies above cruisers and battle ships were often filled with 90 something planes, and had scores of them diving. And these battles lasted for hours in the sky.

Their are times where a lone plane stumbles upon a ship and scores a lucky bomb hit, but that's like you attacking an afk player, or finding a ship undocked and empty.

If you wanted to use WW2 examples, then get twelve of your friends in torpedo bombers. Make attacks in groups of 3-4, and stay on one side to only have some of the turrets fire at you.

 

[Dr. Whammy]

I can here looking for ideas based on torpedo bombers, and get rants on how some people think x and y is unbalanced and or game breaking.

Disappoint.

Oh, wanted to point something out! A lot of you using WW2 examples, need to realize that the skies above cruisers and battle ships were often filled with 90 something planes, and had scores of them diving. And these battles lasted for hours in the sky.

Their are times where a lone plane stumbles upon a ship and scores a lucky bomb hit, but that's like you attacking an afk player, or finding a ship undocked and empty.

If you wanted to use WW2 examples, then get twelve of your friends in torpedo bombers. Make attacks in groups of 3-4, and stay on one side to only have some of the turrets fire at you.

Try this one. No rants, just Q&A. Questions-about-warheads. My little SB-39 is best flown while covered by a swarm of drones. A new tactic of mine is to create flight groups consisting of a bomber/heavy fighter and a set of "wing men" in an "attack formation"...

Spoiler

The heavier ship can take a pounding as it approaches optimal launch range while the wing-men provide close air support against enemy fighters.

 

[Master_Artificer]

let me guess, docked and turreted fighters? :D

Also, that looks fantastic, really like the yellow!

 

[Gasboy]

Try this one. No rants, just Q&A. Questions-about-warheads. My little SB-39 is best flown while covered by a swarm of drones. A new tactic of mine is to create flight groups consisting of a bomber/heavy fighter and a set of "wing men" in an "attack formation"...

Spoiler

View attachment 16734
View attachment 16733

The heavier ship can take a pounding as it approaches optimal launch range while the wing-men provide close air support against enemy fighters.

It will be awesome when we can have this as a function of AI and fleet commands. Looks great!

 

[GRHayes]

I've said it before, I'll say it again.

Small individual fighters should not be a threat to large capital ships. Period. Full stop.

If you want to threaten a large ship using small fighters, you should need a large number of them. Remember Star Wars, they didn't send Luke up in an X-Wing all by himself to destroy the Death Star, they sent an entire fleet.

Star wars its a moving.
The benefit of sending up a thousand small craft isn't so much that they all do the damage it is the idea that enough of them occupy the enemy as targets so the one can get through.
The individual small fighter weather it was in starwars or WWII has always been able to damage the larger ship.
The difference is here we have game where there is an attempt to rewrite the natural mechanics of how things work such as eliminating one shot 1 kill.

We have shields nerfed to living death. with a 10% or lower recharge rate.
Power has been nerfed.
Docked shield module systems apparently don't work the same for everyone. Beginning to regret posting my test results.
[DOUBLEPOST=1444625161,1444624256][/DOUBLEPOST]

What a lot of people don't understand is if they made a modern day battleship with all the modern day systems (missiles/cannons/advanced armour, possibly lasers/railguns, there working on these today) this would be extremely dangerous to small aircraft. However for a number of reasons no one will build one.

It would be very expensive but cheaper than a carrier.
It can only be in one place, it can't project power over a large area like a carrier.
Its really good at killing things in range but its not really great at a lot of other things a carrier can do.

The main reason why a battleship doesn't exist at the moment is it is far to expensive for its limited a role to justify the expense.
Strategically they are designed to be like a tank in ground warfare. (I'm going there and if you don't want me to you have to stop me) and for quite a while that hasn't been necessary to destroy something.

Also the viability of large ships comes down to powerful small weapons or powerful defences. If something very small can wreck something big then there will be nobody would use expensive big ships. If defences are better than weapons it turns into a slugging match and then bigger ships are generally better. When its about break even then small ships in numbers can also win with large losses. So it all generally comes down to your technology available.

I prefer big ships, its what I build. I would like the warheads to be available for bombers to do damage to titans is fine. This will allow small ships to do damage to big ships and in numbers be very dangerous to big ships. It would be nice if AI drones could actually try to ram if they had warheads fitted. But if you have massive damage with warheads it will all end up being small ships ramming stuff,preferably cloaked. You know somebody is going to do it repeatedly. You can make a shipyard to make a batch of them docked to a rail....If that's what you want on your server, fine its your server, but essentially anyone that wants to make a larger than small ship will probably leave once they figure it out.

A lot of the earlier posts had massive amounts of armour. Unfortunately with the mass per block changes it makes a lot of them very slow to accelerate. I've had to limit the amount of hardened armour so I can decently accelerate.

There is another reason we don't use battle ships. We aren't the only people to have advanced our technology. It is no longer a difficulty to build a targeting system and punch through armor as it was in the past. Today even a 10 year old can make a guidance system capable of reaching a battleship. I say that because my son was able to do the electronics at 10. If I had access to stuff like arduino and raspberry pi when I was 10 it wouldn't have been hard for me either. Couple those things with GPS and it isn't hard. Nor is it hard to find visual id systems or countless other means to improve targeting. Delivering a shape charge and blasting a hole through steal isn't near as difficult as it was in the past. Hell even the info to make the shape charge and explosive are all readily available.

We rely a lot less on armor these days and more on stopping the threat before it gets to point. We have to. We use systems like Sea Wiz and others to neutralize threats before they can do damage. Trying to think has there been another major successful attack on a US Navy Ship since the Cole was bombed?

 

[Dvaren]

Docked shield module systems apparently don't work the same for everyone. Beginning to regret posting my test results.

Never regret it! Whether it is a bug, different configs, or data being interpreted differently....it still allows all of us to explore an option that we weren't exploring before.

Keep 'em coming =)

 

[Dr. Whammy]

Star wars its a moving.
The benefit of sending up a thousand small craft isn't so much that they all do the damage it is the idea that enough of them occupy the enemy as targets so the one can get through.
The individual small fighter weather it was in starwars or WWII has always been able to damage the larger ship.
The difference is here we have game where there is an attempt to rewrite the natural mechanics of how things work such as eliminating one shot 1 kill.

We have shields nerfed to living death. with a 10% or lower recharge rate.
Power has been nerfed.
Docked shield module systems apparently don't work the same for everyone. Beginning to regret posting my test results.
[DOUBLEPOST=1444625161,1444624256][/DOUBLEPOST]

There is another reason we don't use battle ships. We aren't the only people to have advanced our technology. It is no longer a difficulty to build a targeting system and punch through armor as it was in the past. Today even a 10 year old can make a guidance system capable of reaching a battleship. I say that because my son was able to do the electronics at 10. If I had access to stuff like arduino and raspberry pi when I was 10 it wouldn't have been hard for me either. Couple those things with GPS and it isn't hard. Nor is it hard to find visual id systems or countless other means to improve targeting. Delivering a shape charge and blasting a hole through steal isn't near as difficult as it was in the past. Hell even the info to make the shape charge and explosive are all readily available.

We rely a lot less on armor these days and more on stopping the threat before it gets to point. We have to. We use systems like Sea Wiz and others to neutralize threats before they can do damage. Trying to think has there been another major successful attack on a US Navy Ship since the Cole was bombed?

Agreed.

This is why I tend to favor "frigate/light destroyer" sized ships over capitals. Most of my ships can knock down 200,000-350,000 shields with a single burst then start shredding through armor with cannons, missiles, turrets etc. Even with with the added mass of advanced armor, they're still quick enough to get out of their own way and maneuverable enough to dogfight effectively. With a fast well equipped ship, you can often control the pace of an engagement and pull out if things get too dicey. A group of dozens-hundreds of even smaller/faster craft, can become an outright nightmare for a capital ship.

Also, It's CIWS (Close-In Weapons System) not Sea wiz...

 

[GRHayes]

Agreed.

This is why I tend to favor "frigate/light destroyer" sized ships over capitals. Most of my ships can knock down 200,000-350,000 shields with a single burst then start shredding through armor with cannons, missiles, turrets etc. Even with with the added mass of advanced armor, they're still quick enough to get out of their own way and maneuverable enough to dogfight effectively. With a fast well equipped ship, you can often control the pace of an engagement and pull out if things get too dicey. A group of dozens-hundreds of even smaller/faster craft, can become an outright nightmare for a capital ship.

Also, It's CIWS (Close-In Weapons System) not Sea wiz...

I know what it is. I'm X-naval Nuclear RO. Just like the nick.