Thoughts on the IMO OP salvage (master) - cannon (slave)

[NeonSturm]

Didn't said it exclusively to you, but to the public. (had no @FunnyBunny14

I meant: "Just don't exaggerate and suggest something that allows everything-multi-purpose." in combination with "But having the choice of <1:8 size and >2:1 power per block would sometimes be nice." which was the previous sentence from me.

 

[Johnathan Dahmnation]

The more power it requires the easier you can make a battleship a hybrid battle/salvager.

But having the choice of <1:8 size and >2:1 power per block would sometimes be nice.

Just don't exaggerate and suggest something that allows everything-multi-purpose.​

If you want to do it right, think about how many systems we have, then about with how many one should coop, then about how many coop-partners a coop-partner has, then about balance.

Leaving the breakdown aside, it's the miniaturization that helps battleships in this case, not anything related to power.

Yes, the bigger the ship, the more power it needs to move, fire weapons and run any onboard utilities, but when salvaging it needs to do a fraction of this and will always have spare power. This trivializes any power increase for salvage + cannon, but doesn't make placing one a better idea than placing a salvage array without cannon slave. Nor does it create an incentive to place one at all.

What makes adding one more palatable with a cannon slave is the reduced mass, meaning it's trivial to the overall balance of the ships systems.

I'm not seeing any reason adding power consumption to anything makes any class of ship want to use it more than currently really.

 

[PseudoGold]

can you connect healing beams with cannons

You can connect anything with anything.

 

[philthy mcnasty]

Ok, i know i am necroing this thread but,

unless the spawning changes to being on a planet, salvaging is fine, though i feel that it is underpowered. Keep in mind that when more is added to this game, crafting will become more complex, and dangerous.

Salvage cannons are one of two ways players get resources. I would assume that all ships should have a salvage feature, and that big ships are big not so that they can be salvage ships, but that they can either be warships, transport ships, or planet crackers. I would assume that all ships are expected to have them. after all, everyone goes out in minecraft with a pickaxe, so why shouldn't all ships have salvage cannons?

In fact, i have a hunch that in the future, once mobs are implemented, planets will become too dangerous. so the survival noob strategy of buying a capsule refinery + faction block, and flying straight to the nearest planet and setting up a faction home there will no longer be viable.

Furthermore, with the new pirate stations just owning noob ships, salvaging may in fact be too underpowered, and may have to be enhanced in the future once nastier mobs get added to planets. I have already seen the threads on the steam forums complaining about this. The wiki tells people that they only need 80 shield capacitors for dealing with stations(it fails to even mention shield rechargers), so when they approach a pirate station and it kills them with one hit, they get very upset.

Though, i think that the main problem is the scanners. I find it super annoying that they do not tell me what each asteroid is. It is at the point now that if i want to build shields, i just find a planet, and ruin it completely with a salvage ship to get the crystals and ore required for shields, as blue asteroids are hard to find, and without shields i can not fly around without being instakilled by pirate stations. With the current pirate stations requiring a ship to have a minimum of 30k shields, they either need to change the spawn rate of all the asteroids to be more balanced, make salvage beams more powerful, or allow scanners to detect resource content of asteroids to help people figure out where the resources they need are.

 

[Megacrafter127]

Ok, i know i am necroing this thread but,

unless the spawning changes to being on a planet, salvaging is fine, though i feel that it is underpowered. Keep in mind that when more is added to this game, crafting will become more complex, and dangerous.

Salvage cannons are one of two ways players get resources. I would assume that all ships should have a salvage feature, and that big ships are big not so that they can be salvage ships, but that they can either be warships, transport ships, or planet crackers. I would assume that all ships are expected to have them. after all, everyone goes out in minecraft with a pickaxe, so why shouldn't all ships have salvage cannons?

In fact, i have a hunch that in the future, once mobs are implemented, planets will become too dangerous. so the survival noob strategy of buying a capsule refinery + faction block, and flying straight to the nearest planet and setting up a faction home there will no longer be viable.

Furthermore, with the new pirate stations just owning noob ships, salvaging may in fact be too underpowered, and may have to be enhanced in the future once nastier mobs get added to planets. I have already seen the threads on the steam forums complaining about this. The wiki tells people that they only need 80 shield capacitors for dealing with stations(it fails to even mention shield rechargers), so when they approach a pirate station and it kills them with one hit, they get very upset.

Though, i think that the main problem is the scanners. I find it super annoying that they do not tell me what each asteroid is. It is at the point now that if i want to build shields, i just find a planet, and ruin it completely with a salvage ship to get the crystals and ore required for shields, as blue asteroids are hard to find, and without shields i can not fly around without being instakilled by pirate stations. With the current pirate stations requiring a ship to have a minimum of 30k shields, they either need to change the spawn rate of all the asteroids to be more balanced, make salvage beams more powerful, or allow scanners to detect resource content of asteroids to help people figure out where the resources they need are.

There have been changes made on how the salvage beams work, thus this thread and it's claims are likely no longer up to date.

 

[philthy mcnasty]

There have been changes made on how the salvage beams work, thus this thread and it's claims are likely no longer up to date.

yeah, i had a feeling this was the case.

its a common problem with Alpha games, the games update faster than the wiki and the forums.

I sort of stumbled on here because i was trying to find a good, up to date source on how long salvage arrays should be. Right now i have 13 at 100 each, but i have the feeling that this is too long. Unfortunately, i can not find a good source now to help out, so i am playing around by ear.

it sucks, because i had to completely disassemble my current ship, but than again, building ships is 2/3s of the fun.

The final goal will be a mandalorian keldabe battleship to scale. A ship strong enough to take on pirate stations, other professional ships, but also fully equipped so that it is the last ship someone will ever need.

 

[KiloZulu]

I don't agree with the OP at all. Mining is one part of the game, and I don't want to spend the majority of my time, or extended periods of time, doing it. Frankly, I find wandering around and watching rocks disintegrate to be one of the least enjoyable aspects of the game.

 

[FunnyBunny14]

Yeah, this thread was based on the old system in which you only needed 1 salvage module linked to 1 cannon barrel for insane, near-max speeds. It was 100 times more efficient than any other possible salvage system, as it used less power, and back then power was rhe same for every size system, so quite OP, and the speed was 10 x higher than other systems of that size.
Also, the pulse slave was quite literally useless.

The current system solved all this, so this thread was isn't valid anymore.

Edit: philthy mcnasty , you really just need to look at the value blocks per second for your system. Try to get it to about 10 per second, but less (like 5) is fine too. In that way the weapons tab is really useful.

 

[Proxima_Centauri]

How can salvaging be overpowered? It's a non-combat system.
The only really important factor in salvaging once you reach a certain size of cannon is the area of your salvage array anyways.

 

[FunnyBunny14]

How can salvaging be overpowered? It's a non-combat system.
The only really important factor in salvaging once you reach a certain size of cannon is the area of your salvage array anyways.

It was one combination that was OP. It made the whole system feel unbalanced. That problem is now fixed.

Conclusion: it was OP, but not anymore. I already said this thread wasn't valid anymore.

 

[Jananton]

Conclusion: it was OP, but not anymore. I already said this thread wasn't valid anymore.

Hmm, maybe not overpowered anymore, but I don't like the randomness of the rate blocks are absorbed by the beam(s).

Greets,

Jan

 

[FunnyBunny14]

Hmm, maybe not overpowered anymore, but I don't like the randomness of the rate blocks are absorbed by the beam(s).

Greets,

Jan

I assure you, it is far from random. Each module adds damage. If the system does 200 damage, it salvages one block. The first time a beam hits a block it does 10 virtual ticks (so damage x10) in the first tick, after that it does x1 the given damage per tick. The tick rate and damage are given.
Keep in mind that te tickrate is very low, so with a salvage-cannon combo at 100% you won't accurately see the tickrate (it will be rounded to a number higher than it actually is, I forgot the actual number unfortunately).

 

[Jananton]

Hmm, I can only believe that if the same type of blocks removed by the beams all have a random damage amount, otherwise four equal beams on my harvester should all have the same pattern when hitting the same block types at the same time and that certainly isn't the case...

Greets,

Jan

 

[FunnyBunny14]

Hmm, I can only believe that if the same type of blocks removed by the beams all have a random damage amount, otherwise four equal beams on my harvester should all have the same pattern when hitting the same block types at the same time and that certainly isn't the case...

Greets,

Jan

It isn't block specific. And the pattern obviously changes when you move. Allign yourself properly, hit the middle of a block on a perfectly alligned asteroid and the pattern should be the same.

 

[Jananton]

Okay, I'll test it again when I have the chance, maybe the angle wasn't straight enough the last time I thought I noticed this behavior.

Have a happy 2015, greets,

Jan

 

[Panpiper]

Well, I've been playing many, many hours the last two days (newbie), as well as reading anything I can find on the web and watching lots of tutorial videos. And I am still quite clueless. It the Wiki up to date with it's info? And which Wiki, as there seems to be two of them?

Is one for one the optimum ratio of salvage modules to cannon? IS there any way to build a salvage array that generates a solid beam instead of the checkerboard pattern I get out of a single array? I've tried staggering two arrays, the "red" checkers to the fore, the "black" checkers to the rear, but for some reason it seems the rear salvage beams do not fire.

Finally, is there a good newbie guide somewhere? I have found nothing but tidbits all over the place, and that after a LOT of searching. Someone mentioned here that the Wiki told newbies that 80 shield modules was sufficient to survive pirate bases (is that true?), but I have not found that page, and certainly would have liked to.

 

[Jananton]

The official wiki is a work in progress still and can be found by clicking the link wiki at the top of the page on the forum. (scroll up completely)
I'm not aware of any specific newbie guides at the moment apart from of course the tutorials in-game itself, the introduction video's on the home page here (again scroll all the way up and click the little house symbol) and obviously the forum here.

The remark of using 80 shields is probably old, from before the time one needed shield recharger's to let shields work in the first place.

Greets and best wishes for 2015,

Jan

 

[FunnyBunny14]

Well, I've been playing many, many hours the last two days (newbie), as well as reading anything I can find on the web and watching lots of tutorial videos. And I am still quite clueless. It the Wiki up to date with it's info? And which Wiki, as there seems to be two of them?

Is one for one the optimum ratio of salvage modules to cannon? Is there any way to build a salvage array that generates a solid beam instead of the checkerboard pattern I get out of a single array? I've tried staggering two arrays, the "red" checkers to the fore, the "black" checkers to the rear, but for some reason it seems the rear salvage beams do not fire.

Finally, is there a good newbie guide somewhere? I have found nothing but tidbits all over the place, and that after a LOT of searching. Someone mentioned here that the Wiki told newbies that 80 shield modules was sufficient to survive pirate bases (is that true?), but I have not found that page, and certainly would have liked to.

Optimum ratio? Well, depends what you want.
First of all, always allign when using C when salvaging. Then, go to third person view (double right shift) to easily see what you are salvaging.
With the perfect alignment in mind, you will want to make sure that you have beams and cannons next to each other, in what people call a checker array. And you'll want to do another precise opposite of one array beneath/on top of the other array.

Spoiler: Example

Array 1 Array 2
C S C S C S
S C S C S C
C S C S C S

This will give you complete coverage of what you will want to be a rectangular surface. Very efficient when using the method described above. As for the length? Too not make it too big, you'll probably be using 10 salvage modules to form one beam. With a big enough surface area covered this will be more than enough, and the block updates won't lag that much behind. The biggest you will want to go is 20 with 20, but that will take up a lot of space and resources, and the lag will ultimately not make it worth it.

Spoiler: Other combos

Currently the shotgun grouping for beams is broken (power consumption is way too high), so don't use that. When using a larger ship that is solely going to salvage asteroids, use pulse slaves. The array will be a lot more compact, and with a big enough array (but not too big) te 15 seconds of salvage time will be more than enough to salvage the entire asteroid. Power consumption will be high, but manageable because the array doesn't need to have that many beams. The optimum for that combination is as low as 8 salvage modules with 8 damage pulse modules. This means that you can easily stack 2 of those full arrays on one ship to get constant mining. Pretty darn cool.
As for the size for an array? For the cannon combo 196 beams is enough, i personally would make it in a shape of a 14x14 square/rectangle, but ay rectangle will do. For the pulse combo 100 beams is more than enough. Again, a 10x10 square has my preference (just because), but, as before, any rectangle will do.
The damage beam combo doesn't really have any use, so just avoid it.

Spoiler: As for pirate stations...

You're going to want to have quite a lot of shields, because the new stations pack quite a punch. I also recommend using long range weapons to snipe the turrets, and I also strongly suggest having a radar jammer on board and active when attacking, as the turret accuracy decreases a lot. As long as you stay at a reasonable distance, they won't hit you a lot. But if your ship is massive, well, just stay out of their range.

 

[Panpiper]

Thank you much FunnyBunny, there was a good deal there I did not know.

Currently after having my first universe come to an abrupt end due to a single shot from a station I never saw (I don't know for sure, but I was slow travelling and then just up and died), I've been working a great many hours (~20?) to build up. I had a mishap trying to dock my first turret in which I blew my own ship to smitherines (I think my turret is adequately powerful) so that slowed me down a good bit. But I am now up to a 9x9 array with each salvage beam 4 modules deep, and with a 70% cannon link which seems to be enough to keep it firing constantly.

It takes me like 15 minutes to harvest an asteroid, I have absolutely no clue how that could be possible in 15 'seconds' with a 10x10 array using damage pulse for a link. From the Wiki chart, it seems to me that the modifiers for the damage pulse are such that it would only be able to fire once per fifteen seconds and with an array only 10x10, regardless of how much of the asteroid it eats on it's beam trajectory, I don't see how it could do the job without multiple firiings with long cooldowns. I must be missing something?

 

[FunnyBunny14]

Panpiper

Spoiler: Long story

Well, I haven't seen the wiki chart, but this is how damage pulse works:
Remember how I said that you need 200 damage to salvage one block? Well, if you want damage, the damage pulse is your friend! Because at 100%, each module that forms one beam (so the salvage + damage pulse modules) add 12 damage. The damage is per tick, but I'll get to that a just now. Anyway, with 8 salvage and 8 damage pulse modules that form one beam, the beam will do 192 salvage damage per tick. That's just 8 damage less than the 200 required to salvage a block! And that isn't even the best bit. The very first time you hit a block, your beam will do 10 ticks in one actual real-time tick. This means that you get 192 x 10 damage on your first hit!
Tick rate is lower though, at 0.15 second for a tick instead of 0.025, but that doesn't really matter if you fill the danage requirement for a block every single time. And the best part is that the damage carries over between blocks, so the 10 x 192 won't be wasted.

Short version: optimum 8 with 8, pulse adds a lot of damage, tick lower, but damage filled, so a lot of blocks per pulse.

Tip: if you have the space, build two such arrays on a ship to constantly be able to salvage.