The gift that just keeps giving!

[Dvaren]

..... so there I was, sullenly tinkering with a group of squares and rectangles that will eventually become a large rectangle that we'll call a mining.....ummm......ship?

..... and I noticed something odd! My salvagers appeared to be using an obscene amount of power, much different than what was being reported in game.

I use a simple logic setup that many of you likely use when mining with salvagers and no cannon slave. Two separate salvage computers, each connected to their own sets of salvage module stacks. A slow clock output alternates between the two computers allowing a near continuous stream of beams at the expense of lost mouse control of the beams. One group fires. Then the other group fies. Rinse and repeat.

Now here is where it get interesting......

As only one group of salvagers fires at a time, you would assume that your power usage would be exactly what that group was using. If there are two groups, and each group is exactly the same, using 10k e/s, and they fire independently, your power usage should never exceed 10k e/s. *you would, of course, pay the ridiculous "resting charge" of both groups though when not in use.

That is not how it works within the new framework we've been blessed with. Now, one array of salvagers begins charging WHILE it is firing , and remains charging throughout a significant portion of the time that the other array is firing. But remember....that other array also begins charging the moment it fires. This results in your twin arrays using DOUBLE the advertised amount for a significant portion of the time that you have it active.

Logic mining ships? Sure! But only if they've a reactor double the size forcing you to extend the "ship" to 300 meters long to allow for the dingleberry of stabilizers sitting in the next sector!

 

[Reilly Reese]

..... so there I was, sullenly tinkering with a group of squares and rectangles that will eventually become a large rectangle that we'll call a mining.....ummm......ship?

..... and I noticed something odd! My salvagers appeared to be using an obscene amount of power, much different than what was being reported in game.

I use a simple logic setup that many of you likely use when mining with salvagers and no cannon slave. Two separate salvage computers, each connected to their own sets of salvage module stacks. A slow clock output alternates between the two computers allowing a near continuous stream of beams at the expense of lost mouse control of the beams. One group fires. Then the other group fies. Rinse and repeat.

Now here is where it get interesting......

As only one group of salvagers fires at a time, you would assume that your power usage would be exactly what that group was using. If there are two groups, and each group is exactly the same, using 10k e/s, and they fire independently, your power usage should never exceed 10k e/s. *you would, of course, pay the ridiculous "resting charge" of both groups though when not in use.

That is not how it works within the new framework we've been blessed with. Now, one array of salvagers begins charging WHILE it is firing , and remains charging throughout a significant portion of the time that the other array is firing. But remember....that other array also begins charging the moment it fires. This results in your twin arrays using DOUBLE the advertised amount for a significant portion of the time that you have it active.

Logic mining ships? Sure! But only if they've a reactor double the size forcing you to extend the "ship" to 300 meters long to allow for the dingleberry of stabilizers sitting in the next sector!

Somehow you make cancerous updates amusing. I congratulate you.

 

[Valiant70]

..... so there I was, sullenly tinkering with a group of squares and rectangles that will eventually become a large rectangle that we'll call a mining.....ummm......ship?

..... and I noticed something odd! My salvagers appeared to be using an obscene amount of power, much different than what was being reported in game.

I use a simple logic setup that many of you likely use when mining with salvagers and no cannon slave. Two separate salvage computers, each connected to their own sets of salvage module stacks. A slow clock output alternates between the two computers allowing a near continuous stream of beams at the expense of lost mouse control of the beams. One group fires. Then the other group fies. Rinse and repeat.

Now here is where it get interesting......

As only one group of salvagers fires at a time, you would assume that your power usage would be exactly what that group was using. If there are two groups, and each group is exactly the same, using 10k e/s, and they fire independently, your power usage should never exceed 10k e/s. *you would, of course, pay the ridiculous "resting charge" of both groups though when not in use.

That is not how it works within the new framework we've been blessed with. Now, one array of salvagers begins charging WHILE it is firing , and remains charging throughout a significant portion of the time that the other array is firing. But remember....that other array also begins charging the moment it fires. This results in your twin arrays using DOUBLE the advertised amount for a significant portion of the time that you have it active.

Logic mining ships? Sure! But only if they've a reactor double the size forcing you to extend the "ship" to 300 meters long to allow for the dingleberry of stabilizers sitting in the next sector!

Let's see... two arrays... two times the power... yep that's totally imbalanced. Burn down the house.

 

[Dvaren]

Let's see... two arrays... two times the power... yep that's totally imbalanced. Burn down the house.

Did you read the post or did you detect a whiff of criticism and immediately hold your breath and stomp your feet? Both arrays require power at the same time even if only ONE is firing. It is explained quite clearly in my original post.

 

[Valiant70]

Did you read the post or did you detect a whiff of criticism and immediately hold your breath and stomp your feet? Both arrays require power at the same time even if only ONE is firing. It is explained quite clearly in my original post.

I read it all. The mechanics make sense. Even in the old system, you need twice the power for two arrays. In this system, it looks a little funny because the consumption overlaps, but the effect is quite the same. The new system just spreads consumption over a longer period.

EDIT: Looks like I read this before coffee. Sounds like you have a bug to report.

 

[Dvaren]

I read it all. The mechanics make sense. Even in the old system, you need twice the power for two arrays. In this system, it looks a little funny because the consumption overlaps, but the effect is quite the same. The new system just spreads consumption over a longer period.

EDIT: Looks like I read this before coffee. Sounds like you have a bug to report.

Understood. Coffee first. Always. Maybe second too.

I do not believe it is a bug, after further testing. Unless they mistakenly set the recharge time of salvage arrays to EXACTLY the cooldown portion of the previous builds firing cycle....that would be one hell of a coincidence!

I figured....well ok...lets see if I can add an additional delay into the loop to wait out the recharge of array [A] before array [B[ fires....and vice versa... No dice. It actually requires a couple extra delays. The amount of delay added making the pause between firing arrays exactly the same as if you simply fired a single array and just waited out the cooldown portion of the cycle.

Logic miners are essentially dead.

 

[Arcaner]

I view this and the new jump drive mechanic as a good thing. I know there are many who disagree with me.

Logic miners are not dead. We can still use them. They were not meant to be used in that way, the cooldown was there for a reason, and bypassing it in that way was frankly an exploit. Same thing goes for Chain drives.

 

[Nosajimiki]

This does not sound like a bug, Power 2.0 specifically negates power staging, because as Valent implied, they must charge continuously as they reload.

The one thing that may look like a bug is if you overflow your ability to regen, you may actually see one weapon lose charge if firing another one makes you unable to maintain the upkeep on it, to fix this you must scale up your reactor to be able to charge both at once.

 

[Dvaren]

Logic miners are not dead. We can still use them.

They are dead because there is simply no reason to use them. No benefits, all disadvantages. Not even risk versus reward, no balancing out the disadvantages over the advantages. It is simply dead. You ever see one of those old hand drills your grandfather probably had? It's not dead. You can still use it....

They were not meant to be used in that way, the cooldown was there for a reason, and bypassing it in that way was frankly an exploit.

It was never an exploit nor was it ever labeled as such. I even seem to remember a dev video that showed it in action. There was an advantage in using logic.....the efficiency....and there was a disadvantage.....the loss of mouse control, lag bombing the logic, etc. Now it's all irrelevant.

 

[Nosajimiki]

.As only one group of salvagers fires at a time, you would assume that your power usage would be exactly what that group was using. If there are two groups, and each group is exactly the same, using 10k e/s, and they fire independently, your power usage should never exceed 10k e/s. *you would, of course, pay the ridiculous "resting charge" of both groups though when not in use.

under power 2.0, this requires 10k e/s per group while they are charging, not firing, so yes, this should consume 20k e/s. An equivalent logic miner under power 1.0 would have consumed 20k e/s for the first burst, and 20k e/s for the second burst. It is actually the same. Logic miners never made power more efficient, they just let you get continuous drilling out of pulse miners.

 

[Dvaren]

This does not sound like a bug, Power 2.0 specifically negates power staging, because as Valent implied, they must charge continuously as they reload.

The one thing that may look like a bug is if you overflow your ability to regen, you may actually see one weapon lose charge if firing another one makes you unable to maintain the upkeep on it, to fix this you must scale up your reactor to be able to charge both at once.

Exactly, but that is the problem. It negates all logic driven systems, as the reactor required to run two or more full sets of arrays, even though they are not currently in use, is so large that you end up with your stabilizers in the next sector. Not to mention the mass and block requirement increases...

It effectively kills logic miners, even if....as the one fellow mentioned, "you can STILL use them!" ....sigh.
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under power 2.0, this requires 10k e/s per group while they are charging, not firing, so yes, this should consume 20k e/s

The problem arises because the charge time is so long that the other arrays are already firing (and therefore charging) at the same time. Everything is essentially in a perpetual state of "charging" even though it is not in a perpetual state of use.

I understand WHY it is happening, mind you. The mechanics do not elude me. I am disagreeing with the fact that it IS happening and making the statement that logic miners are, in all practical senses, worthless.

 

[Nosajimiki]

But... they always kind-of were...

Don't get me wrong, they were popular, but the only point to logic a miner was to make salvage-pulse act like salvage-cannon by creating continuous power draw so you don't need the extra capacitors. All the stuff about it being more size efficient were actually misinformation. Plain salvage arrays were just as efficient per block as any other combination. If you built your array up to lag just to the point of continuous block pull, you could actually calibrate them to be the most efficient miner type at only a fraction of the cost of staged effects without the complexity of logic miners