The awesome new combat meta

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    Perhaps there are inter-system Lagrange-points. The L1..5 ones only respect the sun,moon,planet.
    If you have to jump from inter-planetary to inter-system LPs, you gonna need a route-plotter tool.
    Thought about that, but abandoned the idea of an Autopilot or Route Planer for the sake of simplicity and travel time, now i base my work on the idea of using L-Points as simple entry and exit points, meaning that you could use any L-Point as exit as long as its in range of your drives max range, that would also increase the importance of large jump drives beyond mearly a short charge time.
     

    CyberTao

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    This alpha damage thing is no problem to me and is just another tactic, since your ship has to have lots of power capacity so it balances out that way.
    my solution: make swarmers target the nearest heat signature (like they would in real life). thus one could undock a core or two to distract all of them.
    In order to do that, you need reaction time. People can jump in cloaked/jammed I believe, and it takes all of 0.5 seconds to fire off swarmers and jump out. As soon as they are fired, you cant change their target, so your strategy is moot with the current system.

    Any balanced system has some form of counter, either as a 'hard' counter like PD, or as soft counter like giving players the ability to react and cancel it. If you can do a certain tactic 100% of the time and never fail, it's broken, and just not fun.
     
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    In order to do that, you need reaction time. People can jump in cloaked/jammed I believe, and it takes all of 0.5 seconds to fire off swarmers and jump out. As soon as they are fired, you cant change their target, so your strategy is moot with the current system.

    Any balanced system has some form of counter, either as a 'hard' counter like PD, or as soft counter like giving players the ability to react and cancel it. If you can do a certain tactic 100% of the time and never fail, it's broken, and just not fun.
    it takes 5 seconds to lockon, plus the few seconds for the missile to hit. and if someone does notice the attacker, they are most likely toast as most alpha damage ships have relatively low shielding for their size.
     

    NeonSturm

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    it takes 5 seconds to lockon, plus the few seconds for the missile to hit. and if someone does notice the attacker, they are most likely toast as most alpha damage ships have relatively low shielding for their size.
    If somebody notices the attacker, the attacker may notice that he got noticed and jumps out.

    Also : most of these will likely have jammers + black (or system-colored) hull.
    Perhaps you can adjust hull colours with the rail system ;)

    Imagine a reaction time for something has changed, for where, for turning, for aiming... reaction time may be 1second for slower tuning ships.
    While pressing the jump button is much quicker when you see incoming fire or the enemy doing anything that could be a response to you.
     

    CyberTao

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    it takes 5 seconds to lockon, plus the few seconds for the missile to hit. and if someone does notice the attacker, they are most likely toast as most alpha damage ships have relatively low shielding for their size.
    "Lock on". The problem isn't Missile/beam (which still has instant lock with turret AI btw, so lock time is moot), but swarm missiles, which do not have a lock time at all. The lock is instant, and the best you can do is jump away, or purge all turrets and docked items and hope that missiles were locked to some of those.

    The only reaction time you get is while the missiles fly at you, which is sadly silent, meaning that unless someone jumps into your field of View, or you actively look around, you aren't gonna see that Jammed ship fire missiles at you. No one is alert enough to watch all angles every second. Depending on the size of the ship and how you are flying though, you might be able to notice PD firing, so there's a small warning I guess.
     

    Lecic

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    I'm fine with an extra jump drive for emergencies, but spending 10 minutes at your home base and then insta warping across the galacy is not my idea of fun.
    What exactly is the problem with this? If you'd rather charge a single jump drive and go 8 sectors at a time for the same travel time (probably faster, actually, due to the singular drive having faster charge than a large number of small ones), you can do that. In fact, I'd say that's relatively balanced. You can go much faster, but only 8 sectors at a time and with increased risk of being attacked while charging, or you can spend AGES charging numerous drives and go the whole distance at once.

    You can rarely get attacked while travelling, though, unless someone is using cheats to track player locations, so that entire point is rather -moot. Overall, I don't see a reason why people can't choose either way to do it.
     

    Snk

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    What exactly is the problem with this? If you'd rather charge a single jump drive and go 8 sectors at a time for the same travel time (probably faster, actually, due to the singular drive having faster charge than a large number of small ones), you can do that. In fact, I'd say that's relatively balanced. You can go much faster, but only 8 sectors at a time and with increased risk of being attacked while charging, or you can spend AGES charging numerous drives and go the whole distance at once.
    Because it's safer staying in one sector and charging all your jump drives, as opposed to stopping and jumping in sectors that may have pirate stations and whatnot. Insta jumping also removes a part of combat gameplay, which is capturing and holding territory. The idea of fleets of ships skipping over most of your space to attack a single station or point is not fun. It makes it near impossible to defend.
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    Overdrive won't let you accelerate fast enough to get out of range before the missiles hit. Most likely they'll hit before you even get over the speed limit and into the overdrive's boost zone.
    Depends on your thrust:mass ratio and server speed limit. Generally, I don't have a problem outrunning Alpha station missiles at 100% overdrive. I'm not sure of the speed, though. But I did leave the missiles in the dust, so you probably need about 300 m/s to out run them.
     
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    Depends on your thrust:mass ratio and server speed limit. Generally, I don't have a problem outrunning Alpha station missiles at 100% overdrive. I'm not sure of the speed, though. But I did leave the missiles in the dust, so you probably need about 300 m/s to out run them.
    Nah, it depends on what type of missiles wants a piece of you, unles the admin changed the weapons multiplications, every weapons projectile speed is based on the speed limit.

    So say for the sake of simplicity, 100ms would be the limit, 200ms with 100% overdrive, that would mean the following missile speeds:

    Missile+0% Slave = 198ms
    Missile+100% Cannon = 198ms
    Missile+100% Missile = 99ms
    Missile+100% Beam = 396ms
    Missile+100% Pulse = 66ms (Alpha Station uses those if i remember right)

    Now, pretty much everybody and their mother, heck even me, use Missile+Beam most of the time, good luck outrunning that.
    And everybody who knows a good deal about missile weapons, wont build heat seekers with 100% slave, but rather with various lower slave ratios as low as even 0%, so you would need a good Overdrive ratio to outrun them.
     
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    Lecic

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    And everybody who knows a good deal about missile weapons, wont build heat seekers with 100% slave, but rather with various lower slave ratios as low as even 0%, so you would need a good Overdrive ratio to outrun them.
    If you build it less than 100% slave, it will go over the speed limit, easily. I think with about 50%, you'd probably have ten missiles going at approximately 149.5m/s. To outrun that, you'd need to have at least 5% of your ship's mass dedicated to overdrive, at the bare minimum. And that gives you just .5m/s over the missiles. You're toast if a ship jumps in and dumps swarmers right on top of you, because there's just no way you'll accelerate in time to outrun, and it's too close for your PD to do any good.

    Insta jumping also removes a part of combat gameplay, which is capturing and holding territory. The idea of fleets of ships skipping over most of your space to attack a single station or point is not fun. It makes it near impossible to defend.
    You make a good point. I think station mounted interdiction systems that can completely prevent enemy jumps in an 8 sector radius sphere would be a good solution to preventing enemies from completely bypassing defenses, while still allowing people just traveling long distances to do so.
     

    Snk

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    You make a good point. I think station mounted interdiction systems that can completely prevent enemy jumps in an 8 sector radius sphere would be a good solution to preventing enemies from completely bypassing defenses, while still allowing people just traveling long distances to do so.
    I like the idea of station interdiction systems. However, traveling distance in one shot still is detrimental to the game's health because it makes traveling much safer.
     
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    You can go much faster, but only 8 sectors at a time and with increased risk of being attacked while charging, or you can spend AGES charging numerous drives and go the whole distance at once.
    People will select the unfun option given the chance , for security or combat effectiveness. Game design in which the unfun option outcompetes the others is broken.

    Time spent charging the jump drive should result in exposure , it's completely pointless otherwise. How does it make the game better to wait at your homebase for ages to be able to safely move to any coordinate in the galaxy ?
     

    Lecic

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    Time spent charging the jump drive should result in exposure , it's completely pointless otherwise. How does it make the game better to wait at your homebase for ages to be able to safely move to any coordinate in the galaxy ?
    The only "danger" that comes from jumping is landing right next to a Pirate Station Alpha and getting instakilled by its nukes because you were in a small ship without the capacity to survive it. People DO NOT encounter each other in the middle of space nowhere near a faction base, unless one of the people is using cheats or tricks to track the positions of other players. Even with a "long range jumper," you can still get instakilled by PSA when you land.
     

    Snk

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    The only "danger" that comes from jumping is landing right next to a Pirate Station Alpha and getting instakilled by its nukes because you were in a small ship without the capacity to survive it. People DO NOT encounter each other in the middle of space nowhere near a faction base, unless one of the people is using cheats or tricks to track the positions of other players. Even with a "long range jumper," you can still get instakilled by PSA when you land.
    I do see your point. However, this is an issue with other aspects of the game. Your argument hinges on the fact that currently, the biggest danger from enemy station is being insta nuked. However, when we have more natural objects, and the AI locking on to radar jammed ships bug is fixed, and we have actual trade routes and what not (Places where players travel frequently) that negates your argument.

    Even so, I believe that a danger while traveling is better than no danger at all, even if it is boring. A sense of danger is pretty important to any space game. I do agree that the AI lock on while radar jammed is too much, though, and I can see why you would argue for a method that would avoid it.
     
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    I would actually love to have an interdiction computer+array available to counteract jump drives. First, define its behavior and usage: Once activated, it immediately affects all entities, regardless of allegiance, and begins draining their jump drive(s)' charge(s). If the drive has a lower efficiency rating than the interdiction array; say, 90% interdiction versus 15% jump drive, then the drive will not be able to recharge fast enough to jump away. Even if the drive can compensate, the player piloting the craft has to manually recharge the drive; it will still begin draining at e.g. 95% of its recharge rate.

    Now since jump drives can exceed 100% efficiency, I'd expect interdictors to do likewise; you can make a dedicated interdiction ship that has 3.5x as many interdiction modules as necessary, and in a fleet engagement nobody jumps out until that craft is either destroyed or drops its interdiction field. A dedicated jump transport can likewise expect to escape most encounters if it has an obscenely strong jump drive. But this does mean than an ambush craft will have to either expect to die horribly or waste precious space on an oversized drive.
     

    Lecic

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    and we have actual trade routes and what not (Places where players travel frequently) that negates your argument.
    And how would we have trade routes? I have a couple ideas, but I'm curious what your thoughts on the matter are.
     

    Snk

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    And how would we have trade routes? I have a couple ideas, but I'm curious what your thoughts on the matter are.
    Supply and demand. Some parts of the galaxy would spawn with more ores and other resources than others. This would create trade routes because one faction may build their base in a certain area with say, lots of larimar, and they'd be able to produce shields cheaply. A war mongering faction may want to buy some, so you'd probably have ships going back and forth. There was a good thread on it, but I don't know where to find it.
     
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    Right now you can charge 5 jump drives with just one slot in your escape pod which gets hit very unlikely inside your ship and can jump straight out..

    AFAIK, you lose the charge when you receive damage, thus having a drop-able shield plate might be useful to protect you against damage.
    I've been pondering this, the relevance and implications of what you said didn't sink in until today. If I get you right, a docked ship can jump it's parent ship???
    That would be another simple change, disallow it. Sounds like a very broken mechanic anyway, you can charge up in seconds on a minimal mass ship and jump your titan around with it. Again it gives more reasons to build a bigger jumpdrive. If you want that scout that can cross the galaxy quickly, then you would need to sacrifice other capability for it. It would make ship design more about compromises and provide greater diversity.

    I don't think you lose charge right now unless you take damage to a jump module, since that causes a recalculation (just like when building a ship), which causes a loss of charge.
     
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    I've been pondering this, the relevance and implications of what you said didn't sink in until today. If I get you right, a docked ship can jump it's parent ship???
    I don't think you lose charge right now unless you take damage to a jump module, since that causes a recalculation (just like when building a ship), which causes a loss of charge.
    On the first point, the answer is no: last time I tried, a docked craft cannot jump while attached to the parent ship. Rail docked ships might be working differently because of the nature of the dev build being weird, if that's what you're using.

    You're right on the second, though: if a jump drive module is destroyed, the charge is dropped.
     

    Lecic

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    If I get you right, a docked ship can jump it's parent ship???
    No. That's not what it is. You can use an escape pod with a pre-charged jump drive to escape, and it can jump regardless of physical obstacles in the way, so you can have it safely secured deep inside your ship.
     
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    No. That's not what it is. You can use an escape pod with a pre-charged jump drive to escape, and it can jump regardless of physical obstacles in the way, so you can have it safely secured deep inside your ship.
    Oh. Yeah, not really relevant to this discussion. I somehow suspect that's only something an rper would try anyway, the rest of us would go down with our ships (like a good....rper captain?). On a practical level I can't imagine that if you're about to get cored that you would be able to get to your escape pod, since with my luck I'd have to hop through every turret I had to get there anyway.

    EricBlank, thanks for confirmation on charge.