Suggestion for missile slave on beams and cannons

[silverfoe]

Sure, let me know when you have some time to fight and what mass of ship you can bring. I have access to a server.

Is it possible you could explain here? Is it a creative server? Otherwise I'd prefer not mining materials for a ship to get instakilled (I've seen your pvp videos)

 

[Dr. Whammy]

I'm just wondering if I can show you that C/C isn't the best DPS weapon in the game + demonstrate the difference between theoretical (on paper) DPS versus functional (what you actually get) DPS. I promise, it'll only take a few minutes and you might just leave enlightened. Or perhaps not, it doesn't matter to me. I'm putting forth the effort to teach you, but whether or not you want to be taught is entirely up to you.

That's a reasonable response.

And I get what you're saying; 'effective' DPS. Meaning; shots fired vs shots that actually hit.

I do not question that gunner, piloting, AI and range limitations are a reason for loss of effectiveness of a weapon that "looks good on paper". What I question is the notion that in a building game as diverse as this, only 25-30% of all available primary/secondary weapon combos are used on a common basis. The rest are junk. That's why these rebalancing threads keep popping up.

While I'm willing to hear your information, any lesson you want to give me will need to be either here or via PM. I have no desire to visit multi-player servers again.

 

[Zyrr]

It's a private creative server. No mining, no other people, just ship spawning and fighting. Very straightforward.

 

[Asvarduil]

It's a private creative server. No mining, no other people, just ship spawning and fighting. Very straightforward.

That...actually seems pretty fun. Do you have a dedicated 'build' sector/system/whatever flagged as peaceful/protected?

 

[Zyrr]

It's just an empty build server we've appropriated for shooting these days lol. No one is ever really on unless we're fighting.

That's a reasonable response.

And I get what you're saying; 'effective' DPS. Meaning; shots fired vs shots that actually hit.

I do not question that gunner, piloting, AI and range limitations are a reason for loss of effectiveness of a weapon that "looks good on paper". What I question is the notion that in a building game as diverse as this, only 25-30% of all available primary/secondary weapon combos are used on a common basis. The rest are junk. That's why these rebalancing threads keep popping up.

While I'm willing to hear your information, any lesson you want to give me will need to be either here or via PM. I have no desire to visit multi-player servers again.

Not to double post but I guess you'd have to elaborate more on commonly used. The only weapons that don't really get used on a common basis are pulse weapons just because movement + aoe is super janky. There's plenty of uses for almost everything else, just not always directly offensively related. That's maybe questionable, but a good variety of weapon choices exist that you can make work for various purposes. However, there are definitely a few that are clearly the top tier - m/b is unparalleled in raw damage to blocks, b/b is the ideal weapon for killing shields, b/c is very comfortable doing both of those jobs nearly as well, etc. This is more based on the nature of the game than anything, something that's harder to change than a few config numbers. Numbers can definitely help improve other weapons though, and that's something a lot of people do with config editing. The sad truth is that Schine just isn't aware that either 1) most of their weapons aren't that awesome in combat or 2) they don't know how to make them better. Many server owners do.

 

[silverfoe]

It's a private creative server. No mining, no other people, just ship spawning and fighting. Very straightforward.

Ahh ok that sounds good. I have a prototype ship (looks like trash but systems done) just shy of 6k mass. PM ip?

 

[Zyrr]

Can do, won't be able to fight for a little while today, my mondays are busy haha. Maybe like 6-7pm EST

 

[silverfoe]

Can do, won't be able to fight for a little while today, my mondays are busy haha. Maybe like 6-7pm EST

Can't do that time either, what times can you be on tomorrow?

 

[Dr. Whammy]

Not to double post but I guess you'd have to elaborate more on commonly used. The only weapons that don't really get used on a common basis are pulse weapons just because movement + aoe is super janky. There's plenty of uses for almost everything else, just not always directly offensively related. That's maybe questionable, but a good variety of weapon choices exist that you can make work for various purposes. However, there are definitely a few that are clearly the top tier - m/b is unparalleled in raw damage to blocks, b/b is the ideal weapon for killing shields, b/c is very comfortable doing both of those jobs nearly as well, etc. This is more based on the nature of the game than anything, something that's harder to change than a few config numbers. Numbers can definitely help improve other weapons though, and that's something a lot of people do with config editing. The sad truth is that Schine just isn't aware that either 1) most of their weapons aren't that awesome in combat or 2) they don't know how to make them better. Many server owners do.

You've pretty much summed up what I was getting at. Now it's time to explain why some people (myself included) have a huge problem with this.

There were originally 31 possible weapon options in starmade. 10 were scrapped before release and one is currently only used as an anonymous stealth griefing tool. Out of the remaining 20 options, just over 1/4 of the available weapons are good combat choices. The rest are novelties at best and garbage at worst. So that leaves 5-6 weapon options available (out of 31) if you don't want to automatically suck at PvP due to having a crap loadout.

This lack of (effective) variety is a key reason (giantism being the other) why I lost all interest in multiplayer, even before the recent arguments. I like to build creatively and the more I hear about the PvP "meta", the more rigid and limited it seems with regard to build options. While I have no doubt that I can "follow the rules", cook up something nasty on my own and give a tough fight, there is no way for me to build in the way I want to build and still be PvP combat effective.

Look at it this way; If you and I played rock-paper-scissors but rock could also beat paper, why would either of us ever pick scissors or paper again? And if everyone only picked rock, what would be the point of playing rock paper scissors?

 

[Calhoun]

You've pretty much summed up what I was getting at. Now it's time to explain why some people (myself included) have a huge problem with this.

There were originally 31 possible weapon options in starmade. 10 were scrapped before release and one is currently only used as an anonymous stealth griefing tool. Out of the remaining 20 options, just over 1/4 of the available weapons are good combat choices. The rest are novelties at best and garbage at worst. So that leaves 5-6 weapon options available (out of 31) if you don't want to automatically suck at PvP due to having a crap loadout.

This lack of (effective) variety is a key reason (giantism being the other) why I lost all interest in multiplayer, even before the recent arguments. I like to build creatively and the more I hear about the PvP "meta", the more rigid and limited it seems with regard to build options. While I have no doubt that I can "follow the rules", cook up something nasty on my own and give a tough fight, there is no way for me to build in the way I want to build and still be PvP combat effective.

Look at it this way; If you and I played rock-paper-scissors but rock could also beat paper, why would either of us ever pick scissors or paper again? And if everyone only picked rock, what would be the point of playing rock paper scissors?

The weapons still don't make the ship. You don't automatically win because you have a beam/beam array.

 

[Dr. Whammy]

The weapons still don't make the ship. You don't automatically win because you have a beam/beam array.

You're missing the point.

I'm not looking to show off my piloting/fighting skills; I'm here to build. Unfortunately, the builds I actually enjoy making do not fit the PvP meta (or even multi-player in general) so there is no incentive for me to get into PvP in the first place.

I'm not going to participate in a play style that forces me to build and play in a way that does not interest me, just to survive in multi-player. Telling me that my opponents "won't automatically win" because "xyz variables" does not address the fact that the meta's requirements for combat effectiveness restrict my building options to a level where I no longer find the game enjoyable.

 

[Az14el]

sooo, how about that missile slave on beams and cannons thing
been a few pages

 

[Zyrr]

You're missing the point.

I'm not looking to show off my piloting/fighting skills; I'm here to build. Unfortunately, the builds I actually enjoy making do not fit the PvP meta (or even multi-player in general) so there is no incentive for me to get into PvP in the first place.

I'm not going to participate in a play style that forces me to build and play in a way that does not interest me, just to survive in multi-player. Telling me that my opponents "won't automatically win" because "xyz variables" does not address the fact that the meta's requirements for combat effectiveness restrict my building options to a level where I no longer find the game enjoyable.

What weapons do you want to build? I've admittedly skimmed the thread and only kept up with that last few points.

 

[GDPR 302420]

I'm not looking to show off my piloting/fighting skills; I'm here to build.

>Implying you have any skills in the first place

the builds I actually enjoy making do not fit the PvP meta (or even multi-player in general) so there is no incentive for me to get into PvP in the first place.

I'm not going to participate in a play style that forces me to build and play in a way that does not interest me, just to survive in multi-player. Telling me that my opponents "won't automatically win" because "xyz variables" does not address the fact that the meta's requirements for combat effectiveness restrict my building options to a level where I no longer find the game enjoyable.

You have no idea how long I have been waiting for this to come out of your mouth.

This right here the big issue with the current development path of the game and the "balance debate" threads that pop up every week.

The entire PvE and RP crowd (such as yourself) not only come up with the most stupid balance ideas, but their supporting device is either blobs of confirmation bias or in some cases even just straight up false statements made due to lack of knoweldge on the subject they are debating.

And to top it all of, as you just said The PvE/RP crowd doesn't even intend to play the PvP game in the first place.

Its honestly like modern day Social Justice Warrior shit, nothing ever satisfies them and they always have something to complain about, they are trying to "change" shit they don't ever plan to participate in at all in first place.

Dr. Whammy if you are not interested in the PvP game, then why are you engaging in balance discussion in the first place? You said yourself you are not interested in meta pvp so why bother? Even if you were interested you lack the knoweldge of anything to do with balance and thus you are incapable of forming a valid, realisitc viewpoint unlike PvP players who actually have a clue what they are talking about.

 

[Dr. Whammy]

What weapons do you want to build? I've admittedly skimmed the thread and only kept up with that last few points.

All kinds of contraptions, actually. Turrets, logic weapons, mines, energy webs, light sabers, torpedoes; if you can imagine it, I've probably tried to build it.

For non-exotic weapons, I'm a mostly fan of missiles but i find that M/C are greatly outclassed by cannons (though they have other uses). M/P is only useful against slow/stationary targets (if they can make it past enemy AMS). Swarms and fleets don't mix and I find M/B unreliable as anti-shield weapons and require substantially more power in comparison to C/B, B/B or even C/C. I'd love a shotgun but they currently suck. I'd love an artillery cannon or explosion beam but the radius of explosive effects are bugged. Warheads? ...let's just say I have an unhealthy obsession those.

sooo, how about that missile slave on beams and cannons thing
been a few pages

Agreed. Back on topic it is then.

My first post here suggested a "choke" mechanism to determine spread angle. What are your thoughts on giving C/M or B/M weapons a static base 'pellet count' (7 or 13 in a hexagonal pattern for example) then allowing the missile secondary to determine the angle of spread?

- 0% for a compressed hunk of lead (or beam) to 100% for a wide angle sawed-off spread. One shot always flies straight while the others spread apart.

- Individual pellet damage = (Base weapon Dmg / No. of pellets) * (No. of primary blocks + No. secondary blocks)

- Reload could be anything (discuss), provided the weapon's damage output scales properly with it.

 

[Calhoun]

You're missing the point.

I'm not looking to show off my piloting/fighting skills; I'm here to build. Unfortunately, the builds I actually enjoy making do not fit the PvP meta (or even multi-player in general) so there is no incentive for me to get into PvP in the first place.

I'm not going to participate in a play style that forces me to build and play in a way that does not interest me, just to survive in multi-player. Telling me that my opponents "won't automatically win" because "xyz variables" does not address the fact that the meta's requirements for combat effectiveness restrict my building options to a level where I no longer find the game enjoyable.

I'm sorry, what? So you don't PvP, but think you know the way the meta works. Right.

 

[Dr. Whammy]

I'm sorry, what? So you don't PvP, but think you know the way the meta works. Right.

Actually, I used to PvP and did better than you'd expect. I lost interest for the same reason PvE doesn't interest many of you; lack of personal incentive. You and the troll are welcome to take the words "I don't PvP" to mean "I've never PvPed" or "I can't PvP" if you like; whatever helps you sleep at night. Either way, you'll never really know.

Back on topic; what do you think of the shotgun ideas?

 

[GDPR 302420]

Actually, I used to PvP and did better than you'd expect.

Prove it.

Actions speak louder then words, and your actions on the forums say that you were (and still are) terrible at PvP, assuming you ever PvPed at all.
[doublepost=1506399278,1506399212][/doublepost]

Either way, you'll never really know.

I can get a pretty good idea based on your "Grr PvP Grr" bullshit you spew in balance threads and your demonstrated lack of knoweldge.

But if you truly are somehow good at pvp, the burden to prove it is on you, not for us to disprove it, which we already have.

 

[Az14el]

I definitely don't have any "good" answers as to what the hell schine should do with their weapons system, only that with damage mechanics as they are now I don't think they have a lot of interesting options to work with, and true out of those we have a lot of them just really don't work very well in comparison. I do think range & precision is the main thing holding most "unviable" weapon combos back, as they're really the only clear mechanical advantages that can't be replicated to any extent on another weapon/setup, but definitely hard to fix the issue on a weapon that's meant to be a 'space shotgun'.

Fairly high minimum count of splits & a much tighter choke mechanic (and reasonably low max splits because lolstarmade) sounds like a good start to me, in the meantime i don't think many people are even going to bother testing it because it's got such clear issues, probably has a long way to go even if this 'fix' was made

 

[silverfoe]

>Implying you have any skills in the first place



You have no idea how long I have been waiting for this to come out of your mouth.

This right here the big issue with the current development path of the game and the "balance debate" threads that pop up every week.

The entire PvE and RP crowd (such as yourself) not only come up with the most stupid balance ideas, but their supporting device is either blobs of confirmation bias or in some cases even just straight up false statements made due to lack of knoweldge on the subject they are debating.

And to top it all of, as you just said The PvE/RP crowd doesn't even intend to play the PvP game in the first place.

Its honestly like modern day Social Justice Warrior shit, nothing ever satisfies them and they always have something to complain about, they are trying to "change" shit they don't ever plan to participate in at all in first place.

Dr. Whammy if you are not interested in the PvP game, then why are you engaging in balance discussion in the first place? You said yourself you are not interested in meta pvp so why bother? Even if you were interested you lack the knoweldge of anything to do with balance and thus you are incapable of forming a valid, realisitc viewpoint unlike PvP players who actually have a clue what they are talking about.

Prove it.

Actions speak louder then words, and your actions on the forums say that you were (and still are) terrible at PvP, assuming you ever PvPed at all.
[doublepost=1506399278,1506399212][/doublepost]

I can get a pretty good idea based on your "Grr PvP Grr" bullshit you spew in balance threads and your demonstrated lack of knoweldge.

But if you truly are somehow good at pvp, the burden to prove it is on you, not for us to disprove it, which we already have.

Can you please discuss for once without being so patronizing. It really ruins the mood of a constructive thread.