StarMade Mandatory Ship Aesthetics

    Joined
    Jan 18, 2015
    Messages
    16
    Reaction score
    5
    You can stop now; your idea is bad.
    No arguments seen.

    I think idea is at least interesting. Making good ship designs worth a time, good-looking ships not been overpowered by doom cubes (not those with good exterior\interior, just whole cubes of systems).

    It's not my example, it's my counterpoint.
    I know nothing about Minecraft, but you're counterpointing with an example.
     
    Joined
    Jul 29, 2013
    Messages
    1,173
    Reaction score
    494
    • Competition Winner - Small Fleets
    • Top Forum Contributor
    • Legacy Citizen 5
    No arguments seen.
    I know nothing about Minecraft, but you're counterpointing with an example.
    You misread. It is not my example, it is my counterpoint to somebody else using Minecraft as an example.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: NeonSturm

    NeonSturm

    StormMaker
    Joined
    Dec 31, 2013
    Messages
    5,110
    Reaction score
    617
    • Wired for Logic
    • Thinking Positive
    • Legacy Citizen 5
    Perhaps we should make an open source game or wrapper and everybody who is not happy, just forks it.

    Then we will see which one survives.
     
    Joined
    Jan 18, 2015
    Messages
    16
    Reaction score
    5
    You misread. It is not my example, it is my counterpoint to somebody else using Minecraft as an example.
    Sorry, I thought it was all started with your post about building functional system in any shape in Minecraft.

    You have misappropriated the entirety of Minecraft to support your point. Minecraft has a set of parameters, just like any other game. However, you can still build an effectively functional structure/system in any way or shape that you desire. What the OP is suggesting completely goes against that.
    ----------------------
    Perhaps we should make an open source game or wrapper and everybody who is not happy, just forks it.

    Then we will see which one survives.
    I think good API could do such a thing, even creating more complex system designs with armor consuming for shield capacity and speed to jump right into your oponent's ship and crush it.
     
    Last edited:
    Joined
    Jul 31, 2013
    Messages
    387
    Reaction score
    87
    • Purchased!
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    @OP: Sounds like you've just been playing on servers with lax staff, or rulesets that do not mesh with your playstyle. On an rp or build server these things are taken for granted, and offenses are bannable if repeated. The game should NOT be restricted like this, no way, no how. The POINT of the game is that you are able to construct your ships however you like. Balance issues should be considered by the dev team, aesthetics absolutely should not. I hate doomcubes, and bricks. They're grounds for instant bans on many servers. Is that not enough?

    Edit: Also, I routinely disable enemy weapons and engines first and attempt to force surrender. On many realistic and/or beautiful ships, the locations of such things are not always obvious. A little bit of trial and error is all it takes. Though a scanning system that would let you highlight or target systems might be nice.

    • there are multiple farm designs, from automated to manual. Best possible melon farm is 10% ahead of the worst one in productivity. If you take into account overproductivity of farms, this makes those designs almost the same. But in starmade, any non-cube is penalized. So what's the incentive to design complex ships?
    Oh, and about this. The differences are roughly 10-20% here too. It is entirely possible to completely obliterate a doom cube with a matching mass battleship.
     
    Last edited:
    Joined
    Jan 18, 2015
    Messages
    16
    Reaction score
    5
    I hate doomcubes, and bricks. They're grounds for instant bans on many servers. Is that not enough?
    Again about human judgment. There is already a thread about what doom cube is. And there you can see that everyone has it's own opinion.
    No one says anything about restricting shapes. Want cuboic shape --- build it, like spheres --- give it a try. As I understand OP, it's all about non-cuboic shapes not been overpowered by doom cubes.

    Balance issues should be considered by the dev team
    I think most of current "balance problems" cannot be solved until there is an option to just increase your ship without rethinking it's design and it being very effective.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Lidren
    Joined
    Jul 31, 2013
    Messages
    387
    Reaction score
    87
    • Purchased!
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    You're not wrong about human judgement, but humans can follow rules as well. The thing people are missing, is that it is not primarily about doom cubes (not referring to shape) overpowering other ships. (hint: they actually dont as often as people think) But that they can do so with zero thought put into construction.

    Not sure what you mean by "increasing your ship without rethinking its design".
     
    Joined
    Jan 18, 2015
    Messages
    16
    Reaction score
    5
    But that they can do so with zero thought put into construction
    Exatcly that, plus they are also very powerfull. To build good ship for PvP, PvE, and everything else you need nothing but build 10x10x10 (or even bigger, depends on server) cubes of every system (for now even reactors, because of 1m regen softcap).
     

    Snk

    Joined
    Aug 30, 2013
    Messages
    1,186
    Reaction score
    155
    • Legacy Citizen
    • Top Forum Contributor
    This is a really good suggestion, and is well thought out and intelligent. If people want to be "creatively" or some shit, they can edit the config.
     
    Joined
    Jul 29, 2013
    Messages
    1,173
    Reaction score
    494
    • Competition Winner - Small Fleets
    • Top Forum Contributor
    • Legacy Citizen 5
    Or how about this sandbox game instead caters to the creative-types, instead of restricting them? Or how about if you want to restrict players, you can edit your config on your server?
     
    Joined
    Jan 18, 2015
    Messages
    16
    Reaction score
    5
    Or how about if you want to restrict players, you can edit your config on your server?
    Great thing! But right now you cannot do this. As i wrote before, in my opinion combat cannot be balanced until you can stamp cubes of everything without loosing effectiveness. Nothing wrong with configurating server for your needs.
     
    Joined
    Apr 30, 2015
    Messages
    22
    Reaction score
    10
    You're not wrong about human judgement, but humans can follow rules as well. The thing people are missing, is that it is not primarily about doom cubes (not referring to shape) overpowering other ships. (hint: they actually dont as often as people think) But that they can do so with zero thought put into construction.
    I totally agree with you. The only thing that i see differently is that i think humans can follow simple rules well. I mean, checking for nicknames like "{-=PoWn@gE=-}" on an RP server is one thing, but deciding whether the ship is okay or not is quite complex. What if i rounded corners of my cube? What if it has handmade portraits of Nicolas Cage on each side? What if it has a 10x10x10 highly detailed shrine in the middle of a 1000x1000x1000 cube of systems? What if the shrine is 100x100x100? Where is the line at which an artwork turns into a soulless monster? What if it is a replica of Borg cube, as one by BiGEdge? I do not feel like trusting anything but a machine on such matter. Machines can be tuned during its work, while any GM is a uvinersal arbitration entity in his domain: no players of his server are able to "tune" him.

    Not sure what you mean by "increasing your ship without rethinking its design".
    Sorry, should have clarified that:
    Cubical guy can just add a layer of whatever he's missing and be okay with it. Designer-guy will have to at least undo the armor plating, place the systems inside and redo the plating. And then he'll have to make sure ship still looks good (which it most likely won't).

    In my system even cubical guys will have to at least undo the localshield plating, then to place extra systems inside, then to shield them back. That's still easier than to maintain design, but at least it is not trivial.
     
    Joined
    Jan 24, 2015
    Messages
    57
    Reaction score
    46
    • Purchased!
    TLDR:
    - OP's system is likely less creatively restrictive system than the current one, at most it is just restrictive in a different way.
    - Due to the incentive to have empty volume because of inter-system interference, we will now have much more room to put rails in our ships without impacting said ships performance.
    - People who dont want to or enjoy spending time ship-building can just use those built by others, this will also increase the value of non-builders and building-inclined players for each other. Non-builders will need the building-inclined players to make them cool ships, and the building-inclined players will have more motivation (both economically, socially and creatively) to build cool ships, given the increased demand for their work from the non-builders.



    wide lockon missile has larger locking ellipsoid.
    Perhaps changing lock-on speed would be better effect for this.
    Since the size of the locking ellipsoid does not have a big impact on effectiveness (especially when AI is using them), as well as the fact that there are a bunch of ways to get around it as a restriction. For example: futzing with my FOV, using the third person camera mode (double tap shift iirc) to get around my ships turning speed. If the third person camera was removed to enforce the locking ellipsoid restrictions I would be sad, since I one day hope that this game has different ship control schemes for different ship types (a third person "captain" styled control scheme like EVE Online's for capital ships for instance).

    I think all the people waving the pitchforks are being "triggered" by your thread's title (specifically the word mandatory, which i feel is actually inaccurate) rather than it's contents. Its obvious that at least one of them formed an extremely negative bias before he even started reading, evidenced by his saying that he didn't even read the whole thing.

    To me it just seems as though OP's idea is just changing one set of restrictions for another. He argues that this should be done because the current set of restrictions have an undeniable bias towards brick ships. He suggests changing these restrictions to remove that bias, so that there is no inherent benefit to brick ships and that they should instead have the inherent consequences one would expect from something that was constructed without care.

    OP's new system will have zero restrictions on the aesthetics of ship design that I can see. In fact it would make some of the more boring and time consuming parts of big ship design much easier. Filling in the shell with "sealant" shields for instance, would now be less of a chore and more of a creative challenge. Since I now need to think about whether or not shields would be effective if they were placed here, or there.

    Will this new system inform the overall shape of our ships? Certainly, as OP said, inter-system interference would probably inspire more multi-hull designs. I feel that this effect would be as good or bad as the how the behavior of water informs the shape of boats.

    The only argument against the system (and indeed, the only argument that could be considered specific to this suggestion), that I have seen in this thread, is that due to it's increased complexity, new players or players who are less interested in ship building will not enjoy these changes.
    If I understand OP's suggestion correctly, the effects of system interference would scale with size of the ship, reducing their consequences in smaller ships. If that is the case, then new players might not even notice this effect, until they have been playing for a while and are starting to build bigger ships, which only really introduces a learning curve, which to be honest the present system already has.

    In regards to the players who are not interested, or skilled enough to enjoy, aesthetic or complicated (drones/carriers) builds, and would instead prefer to fly ships in combat, mine, or some other non-building activity. This new system would not impact them much either.

    Instead of them just slapping systems together as quickly as they can, so they can get the part of the game they feel is boring out of the way and get to the good stuff. They would have a bigger incentive to approach the more build-inclined players with requests for ships. They could also procure a ship from the Community Content, or server catalog. If they dont like to build in the first place, I don't see why they would be particularly attached to using a ship that they themselves created, especially as it stands now, where people are ridiculed or outright punished for building brick ships.

    A lot of people are saying that this new system would be too restrictive and would hinder creativity, I strongly disagree. So strongly in fact that i would go so far as to say that the current system is far More restrictive than the one suggested. While brick ships are the only ones being mentioned, the efficiency bias towards simple dense cubes does not only affect the performance of aesthetic ships vs brick ships. It can have an impact on the performance of aesthetic ships vs other aesthetic ships.

    Chances are, that the more time I spend on a ship adding in little details trying my best to make it look as cool as possible, the less effective it will be against a ship of the same mass. If I spend a month working on my ships shell, and pit it against a ship of the same mass that took someone a week or day, chances are that I have much more of my ships mass dedicated to blocks that have no relevance to combat, and in fact have a negative impact on my ships combat performance. My ship would need to have more Ion effect blocks to get the same Resistance as my opponent. My ship will either be slower and less maneuverable than my opponents, or it will be less durable or have less weapons because of all the extra thrusters I need to add. My ship is more likely to require larger box dimensions to fit in the same mass as my opponent, since the more complex a hull is, the less volume it is likely to have, making it have a slower turning speed.

    So If I want to use an aesthetic ship and do well in combat I only have one real option. I have to make my ship bigger than my opponents, to offset his advantage in efficiency. A course of action which has even more consequences. I have little practical way to know the mass of my opponents ship at the time I begin the construction of my own. Even if I estimate the sizes correctly, victory is far from guaranteed, even assuming I am not outnumbered and that I am a better pilot, The server could lag (and is far more likely to lag since our ships are larger), and I could loose track of my opponent, and need to spend more time then he would to re-acquire my target, since my turning speed is slower. If I loose, I have lost more blocks than he would have had I won. If I loose, the economic disadvantage I already had just from constructing my ship in the first place is now multiplied.

    So in the end, the only incentive to build an aesthetic ship is the entirely subjective (and slightly masochistic) desire to have a pretty ship. The only practical incentive to not building bricks is that some servers have some ambiguous and easily circumvented rules against it.

    All of this is going to get even worse too, when rails are added. Since ships with rails are going to end up using much more empty internal volume on spaces to allow things to move around. Heck, that's another point for this system, since it promotes having some separation between systems, it will create a need for all that empty space to put rails in!

    Right now it is pretty trivial (at least from a design standpoint) to build a ship specifically to defeat another ship. If I know how much shields they have, I just need to make a weapon that can take them down in one shot. There is no creativity involved, not need for clever tactics or piloting. I just need to spend some time to prepare and I can build a ship that can kill you as soon as my missiles hit you. The only limit to this is the time spent acquiring the blocks needed, and the technological limits on servers/computers being less likely to handle bigger and bigger ships. With OP's system it becomes much more complicated to build a counter-ship like the one I just described.
     
    Last edited:
    Joined
    Apr 30, 2015
    Messages
    22
    Reaction score
    10
    Tobie
    Oh my god. This is the summary i personally would not be able to make. I think what you just wrote is the best possible TLDR for my thread. Thank you very much, reference to your post goes into the original post.
     

    Snk

    Joined
    Aug 30, 2013
    Messages
    1,186
    Reaction score
    155
    • Legacy Citizen
    • Top Forum Contributor
    Honestly guys, the one way if we improve ship aesthetics is if we set down some rules. If people don't like them, fine, they can edit them away. But for RP servers, or just regular servers that don't want doom cubes, this could really help.
     
    Joined
    Aug 8, 2013
    Messages
    403
    Reaction score
    45
    • Legacy Citizen
    • Purchased!
    • Legacy Citizen 2
    I totally agree with you. The only thing that i see differently is that i think humans can follow simple rules well. I mean, checking for nicknames like "{-=PoWn@gE=-}" on an RP server is one thing, but deciding whether the ship is okay or not is quite complex. What if i rounded corners of my cube? What if it has handmade portraits of Nicolas Cage on each side? What if it has a 10x10x10 highly detailed shrine in the middle of a 1000x1000x1000 cube of systems? What if the shrine is 100x100x100? Where is the line at which an artwork turns into a soulless monster? What if it is a replica of Borg cube, as one by BiGEdge? I do not feel like trusting anything but a machine on such matter. Machines can be tuned during its work, while any GM is a uvinersal arbitration entity in his domain: no players of his server are able to "tune" him.
    That is something that should be up to the admin of the server as to weather or not they think it is ok for their community.

    Admins don't (Or shouldn't) Just pop up a server and let it run, their responsibility is to watch, monitor, and discipline THEIR community as they see fit. Therefore, on a server, they should be the final judge on if a ship should be allowed, not a program that can easily bug and penalize good players for no reason. The admin should choose what ships they do, and don't want to see on their server, not an algorithm that can have exploits.

    Man > computer programs
     
    Joined
    Apr 30, 2015
    Messages
    22
    Reaction score
    10
    That is something that should be up to the admin of the server as to weather or not they think it is ok for their community.

    Admins don't (Or shouldn't) Just pop up a server and let it run, their responsibility is to watch, monitor, and discipline THEIR community as they see fit. Therefore, on a server, they should be the final judge on if a ship should be allowed, not a program that can easily bug and penalize good players for no reason. The admin should choose what ships they do, and don't want to see on their server, not an algorithm that can have exploits.

    Man > computer programs
    You are obviously not a programmer. Programs cant bug on their own. If it is written correctly, it will behave correctly. If it behaves incorrectly, then it was written incorrectly. It will never have a headache, a vacation, a divorce; it will not be triggered by a player's name and it will not stop caring after some time.

    You know what is a responsibility of a GM? To watch chat. To make sure nobody is bullying newcomers, be it through chat or through hunting them. To make sure nobody issues a real-life threat and goes away with it. To cooperate with developers in the field of server-side optimizations. To sometimes spawn a horde of horrible, disfigured scraplike AI ships who are threat just because of their numbers and to unleash them on community, declaring that an ancient race has awakened and that the players now have to fend it off or be destroyed. And to secretly allow some players to "join forces" with the ancients to build up drama by sudden betrayal.

    That's what GMs are for. Not for subsituting absolutely objective system that treats equally all players across all servers with a randomly-behaved unpredictable entity. I doubt there will be three servers out of a thousand where GMs are competent enough to allow for a fair gameplay, and even those great guys will have their black days when their relative gets sick.

    Edit: I really wanted not to refer to it, but just as a final nail:
    Look up recent crash of plane in Alps. Highly trained, multiple times checked by professional psychiatrists, professional himself, airplane pilot directed his plane into the ground, dooming 144 innocent passengeers and 5 of his colleagues. Man is better than the machine? Don't make me fucking laugh.

    And just so you can't say i'm cherrypicking examples: I know of no cases where computer program would be corrupt. I know no cases where program would be lying. Chernobyl happened when man disabled automated security; Fukishima happened when men decided their honor will be in danger if they admit they have a problem. Sayano-Shushenskaya happened when humans slacked with maitenance. I can't even describe all the examples when human is worse than a program.

    At the very least, when the program misbehaves, we can kill it, improve it and run it with no ethical remorse. World would be a better place if you could do it to a human. But wait, you are a human yourself. First one to be reprogrammed would be the guy who stole your GF, even if he's a better fit for her. Because you are human, and you make emotional mistakes.

    Snk mentioned computer-caused crashes: i can't find the exact one he refers to, but yes, i admit that they happen. But they usually lead to an investigation of a problem and to updates in software to make sure the same never happens - i know of no system that can make GM never repeat his mistakes.

    Edit2: i've hidden part of the post under spoiler, as it's, strictly speaking, a bit off-topic. Thanks to Snk for bringing me back to my senses.
     
    Last edited:

    Snk

    Joined
    Aug 30, 2013
    Messages
    1,186
    Reaction score
    155
    • Legacy Citizen
    • Top Forum Contributor
    That is something that should be up to the admin of the server as to weather or not they think it is ok for their community.

    Admins don't (Or shouldn't) Just pop up a server and let it run, their responsibility is to watch, monitor, and discipline THEIR community as they see fit. Therefore, on a server, they should be the final judge on if a ship should be allowed, not a program that can easily bug and penalize good players for no reason. The admin should choose what ships they do, and don't want to see on their server, not an algorithm that can have exploits.

    Man > computer programs
    There's nothing about this suggestion that could be config eddited, though. If they want the current system and want to enforce ship aesthetics themselves, that's totally cool. But on the other hand, if they want some in-depth RP mechanics for their ships (Ex: A star trek server wants phaser banks, so makes a circular pattern for beams to be the most effective) that should be great, also.

    Besides, it's not like this is an auto-deletion program for ships. It would be a config editable way to determine what is the most effective way to build ships on your server.

    It would HELP creativity more than hinder, because it makes it so creative designs become more effective than non-creative designs.

    You are obviously not a programmer. Programs cant bug on their own. If it is written correctly, it will behave correctly. If it behaves incorrectly, then it was written incorrectly. It will never have a headache, a vacation, a divorce; it will not be triggered by a player's name and it will not stop caring after some time.

    You know what is a responsibility of a GM? To watch chat. To make sure nobody is bullying newcomers, be it through chat or through hunting them. To make sure nobody issues a real-life threat and goes away with it. To cooperate with developers in the field of server-side optimizations. To sometimes spawn a horde of horrible, disfigured scraplike AI ships who are threat just because of their numbers and to unleash them on community, declaring that an ancient race has awakened and that the players now have to fend it off or be destroyed. And to secretly allow some players to "join forces" with the ancients to build up drama by sudden betrayal.

    That's what GMs are for. Not for subsituting absolutely objective system that treats equally all players across all servers with a randomly-behaved unpredictable entity. I doubt there will be three servers out of a thousand where GMs are competent enough to allow for a fair gameplay, and even those great guys will have their black days when their relative gets sick.
    I think your missing his point, which is that admins should have the final say on what ships are okay, and thats totally cool. Kind of dumb though, because it has nothing to do with this suggestion at all.

    Look up recent crash of plane in Alps. Highly trained, multiple times checked by psychiatrists professional, professional himself, airplane pilot directed his plane into the ground, dooming 144 innocent passengeers and 5 of his colleagues. Man is better than the machine? Don't make me fucking laugh.

    Ah yes, but also very recently a computer crashed a 747 while landing. Look up self flying commercial airplane on YouTube, you'd find it.

    @OP: Sounds like you've just been playing on servers with lax staff, or rulesets that do not mesh with your playstyle. On an rp or build server these things are taken for granted, and offenses are bannable if repeated. The game should NOT be restricted like this, no way, no how. The POINT of the game is that you are able to construct your ships however you like. Balance issues should be considered by the dev team, aesthetics absolutely should not. I hate doomcubes, and bricks. They're grounds for instant bans on many servers. Is that not enough?
    As the owner of an RP server, I feel like you should love this suggestion. You could have more power over what kind of ships your players are building, and really dramatically change the landscape of your server. Or just make it so you don't have to find and kill a doom cube every time someone constructs one. It gives players who build aesthetically and engineering solution to work around. If they wanted to build flying saucers, and wanted shotgun cannons too, that could be a little problem to work around, requiring some thought. Sure, creativity is great and all, but the gameplay and lore benefits of having certain ways to build ships could be nice.

    Like imagine a faction that was had a technologically advanced background. Stick something in the config, and reveal to that faction if they build their ships in so and so way, they'd have an advantage. That way that faction would know how to build a ship in ways other faction's don't, leading to a purpose of capturing those factions ships, kidnapping one of their shipwrights and pressing him for information, etc.

    Maybe a new species that favors sniper battleships. Their ships would all have a certain shape. If they don't want it to look like that, then you could make several ways to build cannons to achieve long range, and make a little RP mission for them to find a log book describing how to build sniper ships.

    Or an R&D thing: Factions could complete RP missions in order to know how to build ships correctly. Like a ship adrift in space that has good lock on missile capabilities. You'd give them the coordinates, but also give coordinates to some space pirates, too.


    I'm not here to tell you how to run your server, but still, there could be a lot of RP benefits to be had. And you aren't the only RP owner, maybe some others want players to build a certain way? I mean, if you want your players to build with no restrictions ever, and leave the rest to your admin team, that's great. But it doesn't really have anything to do with this suggestion, because this suggestion would be config editable anyways.
     
    Last edited:
    • Like
    Reactions: Lidren
    Joined
    Jul 31, 2013
    Messages
    387
    Reaction score
    87
    • Purchased!
    • Community Content - Bronze 1
    • Legacy Citizen 4
    If it were highly configurable and optional I could totally get behind it. I did not actually say the idea was unfeasable, I meant that it shouldnt be like this by default because of the restrictions it places on people who want to run or play on combat twink servers. Adding it as default for the base game would be disaster IMO.
    [DOUBLEPOST=1430596967,1430596644][/DOUBLEPOST]
    I totally agree with you. The only thing that i see differently is that i think humans can follow simple rules well. I mean, checking for nicknames like "{-=PoWn@gE=-}" on an RP server is one thing, but deciding whether the ship is okay or not is quite complex. What if i rounded corners of my cube? What if it has handmade portraits of Nicolas Cage on each side? What if it has a 10x10x10 highly detailed shrine in the middle of a 1000x1000x1000 cube of systems? What if the shrine is 100x100x100? Where is the line at which an artwork turns into a soulless monster? What if it is a replica of Borg cube, as one by BiGEdge? I do not feel like trusting anything but a machine on such matter. Machines can be tuned during its work, while any GM is a uvinersal arbitration entity in his domain: no players of his server are able to "tune" him.



    Sorry, should have clarified that:
    Cubical guy can just add a layer of whatever he's missing and be okay with it. Designer-guy will have to at least undo the armor plating, place the systems inside and redo the plating. And then he'll have to make sure ship still looks good (which it most likely won't).

    In my system even cubical guys will have to at least undo the localshield plating, then to place extra systems inside, then to shield them back. That's still easier than to maintain design, but at least it is not trivial.
    Thing is that design and aesthetics is subjective, it cannot be defined or assessed by a computer or program short of heuristics or AI. Yes, humans can only follow simple rules comparatively, but those simple rules have served me just fine in 100% of cases.

    In any case, I'll resubmit to this thread my approval, as long as the implementation is soft option as opposed to hard line.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: SeCor