StarMade Mandatory Ship Aesthetics

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    If it were highly configurable and optional I could totally get behind it. I did not actually say the idea was unfeasable, I meant that it shouldnt be like this by default because of the restrictions it places on people who want to run or play on combat twink servers. Adding it as default for the base game would be disaster IMO.
    I never added the "optional" part only because it would make my post even more complex. Ability to configure everything is a suggestion in itself, and it can be quite tricky to implement. At the very least check scripts should be either parametrized or programmed by server admin, and scripting inside of "hit occured" event can annihilate all the shards of perfomance.

    And btw, it does not limit the ability to quickslap ships. As long as there is some space between blocks of systems inside your copypasted cuboid/cylindrical shell, this ship should behave exactly as well-planned one. It's just that the detailed one is not penalized for having walkways inside of it.
     
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    Snk

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    I agree, it should be highly configurable. Otherwise, it could really hurt people who just want to build aesthetically.


    Configurability doesn't need to be its own suggestion, though. Just slap a sentence to the end saying that everyone would be config edditable, and you're done.
     
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    I agree, it should be highly configurable. Otherwise, it could really hurt people who just want to build aesthetically.

    Configurability doesn't need to be its own suggestion, though. Just slap a sentence to the end saying that everyone would be config edditable, and you're done.
    I do not see how it can hurt aesthetical builders. I mean, it only mandates that quickslappers, too, spend space as "useless", so designers do not have a disadvantage. But i see your point about configurability.
    I added some info about configurability in the header. But i do not think "slap a sentence" is fair for those reading this thread.
    What do you think should be configurable?
    As a programmer, i see the following configurable parts that hinder perfomance the least:
    • Server-side matrix of system interference (boolean value, yes or no), sized M*M where M is the amount of different active systems in game that can interfere with one another. This way admin can specify which systems interfere between one another and which do not. Hovewer, be prepared that any non-iterfering system will have to have placement restrictions (as shields have in my proposition), or it will be used as a sealant in doomcubes to utilzie empty space, thus again discouraging creative builders from having empty space in the ships of their own.
    • Some numerical constants can be tweaked. Power of formulas like "N^1.5" and such.
    • Selecting from a number of pre-implemented options. However, that's basically asking devs to implement 2-3 times as much gameplay. They still have more important things to do.
    The problem is, this way you can not specify the exact shape you want to check your systems againist or even change "N log(N)" formula to "exp(N) cos(N)". Also you cannot change metric used to compare whether shield protects anything or not (think cubical pattern vs kinda spherical one).

    Other option that would negate almost all the perfomance loss would be to distribute the source code, so admin can recompile the server with some changes. However, this can be unacceptable due to legal reasons and this can lead to people being unable to play on the server because it's version is, strictly speaking, different from the one their game expects. Also this will significantly, overwhelmingly, (to the point of bankruptcy) increase the cost of supporting the game for the developers.

    It is possible to implement some sort of "script compilation", so the scripting provided by admins is compiled into a library that is dynamically linked to the game in runtime. This will negate most of the perfomance loss, but it will require developers to provide an API for this library and to adhere to it during development. It's effectively tying their hands, and i believe it causes unacceptable loss of manpower among developers because now they have to test their builds (as in "version builds", not as in "ship designs") for compatibility with said API.

    Basically, this boils down to having an API for the game. Which is great, but i do not think it is a top priority for a company of their size and at this stage of development. They still need some sort of playable beta to increase playerbase; API can be implemented later.
     

    NeonSturm

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    Thing is that design and aesthetics is subjective, it cannot be defined or assessed by a computer or program short of heuristics or AI.
    What if an AI happens to appear? :p

    Players can describe why (weight) aesthetics (decorative blocks) are punished over something that provides no aesthetics at all (doom-cubes)
    The community can thinker around to get to a solution.
    If the solution is to have 20% efficiency reduction if no 20% declaratives (or a 10x10x10 deco-server cube) are used, I think it's a good one (because it's easy to do and immediately fix the problem)

    If the solution to turning issues is to only count mass, so be it! (for the total=sum, not the axis-axis relation)

    If others complain about "these stupid rules", make it a server-option! (this is probably better than a raging community base)

    Other option that would negate almost all the perfomance loss would be to distribute the source code, so admin can recompile the server with some changes. However, this can be unacceptable due to legal reasons and this can lead to people being unable to play on the server because it's version is, strictly speaking, different from the one their game expects. Also this will significantly, overwhelmingly, (to the point of bankruptcy) increase the cost of supporting the game for the developers.
    Tree.js is an open-source WebGL library which already has voxel texturing and voxel placement ala MC and SM.

    Maybe : either SM fixes the problem before any GPL version comes out, or it will die because people like to add content to a game with not only open API but open source to directly bind their source into.
    About maintaining open source, search after GNU/Linux and Linux-Distributions.​

    If something not only has a physics engine, but allows you to play mini-games and easily add tiny improvements (also bigger ones if you are a programmer), what happens to SM, SE, MC ?
    I have found something on the web... and now I am thinking it will come rather sooner than later.

    Maybe not as much FPS as SM, but with more features, free2play and free-software + open-source ... that would be something special nobody has claimed jet (AFAIK)​
     

    Ithirahad

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    Perhaps we should make an open source game or wrapper and everybody who is not happy, just forks it.

    Then we will see which one survives.
    A lot will survive, and we'll get a fragmented community. Minecraft, which is seemingly played by a sizeable fraction of the entire damn world population, can afford this. Starmade, no. Besides, Schema would never agree to this.
     

    NeonSturm

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    A lot will survive, and we'll get a fragmented community. Minecraft, which is seemingly played by a sizeable fraction of the entire damn world population, can afford this. Starmade, no. Besides, Schema would never agree to this.
    I know, but it's inevitable :) once somebody makes it and publishes it, there is no way back. I just hope schema got the amount of money he deserves for his work till that happens + I hope Microsoft does not claim a patent on MC-like games or punishes these communities, etc - the power to do that is there.


    I am a bit curious whether we will get natural looking materials like wood or gold hulls.

    For these complaining about used block IDs... If wood+gold would be just plating and have less weight, it might be do-able without backslashes in ship performance.
    (Volume = Real hull, Plating = Deco we already have for terrain...)

    That would require blocks that hide the Decorative and steal it's texture. I just got an idea how this works without changing any engine too much, but I reserve all rights on this idea and not publish it, else I would steal schema the possibility to get it himself :)
     

    NeonSturm

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    We already have wood.
    But it's purely aesthetic and not useful.
    It takes up volume and you can not even pretend there is reinforced hull inside it. That's what I wanted to say.

    If you could make a chair that is a genetically modified plant which stores power or produces oxygen, ... :)
     
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    Errm. Decorative blocks seem nice, but thats a bit offtopic, plus its a suggestion on its own. Something along the lines of "make decorative blocks weightless".
     

    Snk

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    So, does anyone object to this suggestion if it is implimented in a flexible fashion that allows people to build aesthetically while also encouraging creative designs?
     
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    I think understand what you're saying, but "build style" is a bad way to phrase it.
     
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    I hope Microsoft does not claim a patent on MC-like games or punishes these communities, etc - the power to do that is there.
    I just have to say, the power to do that is totally not there. The idea of a block voxel game was not original to MC and has been repeated often enough already that it is unclaimable.
     
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    NeonSturm

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    I just have to say, the power to do that is totally not there. The idea of a block voxel game was not original to MC and has been repeated often enough already that it is unclaimable.
    If you buy enough big games that the the small ones run out of players due to their inferior plugin-amount of feature-set, wouldn't it be the same?

    But ON-TOPIC:
    I heard individual Block-weights are already implemented in the new updates (haven't played around with the new versions jet).

    Now it's just a matter of volume.
    How do you require players to build in empty space between system-blocks without making others rage?

    With empty space, it would also be a lot easier to update systems in a hollow shape, as you would have no blocks in your way. (Balance could be adjusted for similar energy in that volume)
     
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    This post seems to be 80% bickering or off-topic, but let me gather what I can.

    The OP is calling for a redesign of how systems work, namely that large systems close together decrease their efficiency, certain shapes have various benefits, and other miscellaneous changes that support those ideas or build into that direction.

    The OP's changes are designed to promote empty space in ships to soft-nerf (is that a thing?) the non-thought out "death cubes"

    People opposed to the idea are worried that this change will restrict players too much, or feel that it would function poorly without a plethora of config options

    People in favor of the idea think any number of
    A) the different variations could lead to more interesting design
    B) this will promote or at least no penalize aesthetically pleasing ships
    C) that the people are less qualified to judge ships that are to suit their narrative than computers tasked to do the same via configs or default settings

    Now that the ideas (as I understand them) are gathered let me present my thoughts
    The OP is not a bad idea, though it would require careful implementation. I feel that there should be more than the example Long VS Fat shapes by default, but that's largely irrelevant. The meat is "would this be fun" and I can't say for sure as I haven't played it, but I do think that with proper amount of various shapes it could be interesting to play with.

    The interfering systems is an interesting idea, though I'm not sure it solves all the problems, as for me to have my 1 mil mass of whatever systems, my ship not only has to house them and whatever interior I design, if my interior doesn't properly match the distance for my systems, I'll have to just live with reduced efficiency or design amount the systems and not my aesthetic. Personally I think this would just lead to more giant-ism, but otherwise interesting concept, and seems mostly neutral in its positive/negative effect.

    However, in regards to this preventing death-cubes I don't think this would really help as much as the OP hopes. some people want the path of greatest efficiency, and will find the minimal distance, cram something else in the middle (docked reactors perhaps), and otherwise actively try to circumvent the system for maximum benefit. While this is happening, "legitimate" players will be adding nice interiors between their systems, maybe a docking bay or two, so when a fight breaks between them, the new "death-shape" still wins. The ship had mildly more thought, but still overpowers the aesthetic ship that took more planning.

    My final thought: Until we get a bonus for active interiors and aesthetics serve more purpose than just looks I'm pretty sure pretty ships will always be at a disadvantage. The system might shorten the gap, but it by no meant would close it. On its own, the idea has merit as an interesting overhaul of the current system and bringing more options to the table, but it is not the cure-all, or a game-killer.

    Holy long-post batman, this was much longer than I anticipated so:
    TL;DR I think the idea is interesting and could be fun, but seems to be a more lateral shift than anything
     

    Ithirahad

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    I know, but it's inevitable :) once somebody makes it and publishes it, there is no way back. I just hope schema got the amount of money he deserves for his work till that happens + I hope Microsoft does not claim a patent on MC-like games or punishes these communities, etc - the power to do that is there.
    It doesn't mean we should necessarily help it along... StarMade should just get its modding API (Including the system for downloading mods when you connect to a modded server, just like it downloads custom blocks and BlockConfigs now) and otherwise just do whatever the majority of the community would support.
     

    sayerulz

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    The thing is, that this would simply not actually make ships look better. In fact, the super functional ships would look WORSE, as instead of simple cubes, they would be complex mashups of the shapes that different systems require, and end up looking a bit like the romulan ship from the new-ish star trek movie. And of course, a lot of older ships that look incredible would no longer work, and refits might require changes to the hull that ruin their asthetic.
     
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    The thing is, that this would simply not actually make ships look better.
    The idea was not about making every ship look good. It was about making good-looking ships be at least as efficient as death cubes.

    And of course, a lot of older ships that look incredible would no longer work, and refits might require changes to the hull that ruin their asthetic.
    Well, rails update made every last ship with turrents outdated.
     

    Ithirahad

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    Well, rails update made every last ship with turrents outdated.
    Most turrets could be rebuilt in largely the same shape with the new system, besides, in most people's ships turrets were only a small part of the hull so the work required to rebuild them was not nearly as bad as this... The changes you're talking about are on a much, much larger scale.
     

    Lecic

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    Ship design is not a step you have to spend time on. People are not encouraged to build aesthetically pleasing ships. Flying box always will be functionally better. It's not that i think people should spend several days just planning their ship: it's that i think that people who do spend this time should have better ships. Right now any aesthetics is counter-functional.
    The game should not force people to build in too specific a way- this limits people, and reduces (not improves) the aesthetic possibilities of the game.

    Combat is too shallow. In current system, there are no ship specializations and they can not show up on their own.
    Completely, utterly false. There is a massive amount of ship specialization. And why exactly are people being unable to show up on their own a bad thing? Teamwork should win every time.

    Current system encourages gigantism.
    Agreed. However, your suggestion is a poor way of fixing that.

    Degrading functionality during combat. I want to be able to damage other people cannons or go for their engines, and to do so knowingly. This means that somehow the game has to make ship design mandatory - i should be able to see where are the engines on your ship and where are the cannons or drone bays.
    Now, I realize this is pre-HP update, where this kind of stuff wasn't as important, but... damaging other people's cannons, engines, power, whatever? That's a pretty big feature now.

    No giant unstoppable juggernauts of destruction, armed with every system in the game. This is the most vague of all of my wishes, but it is the only one that can be fixed through number tweaking.
    Jack of all trades, master of none. A small, specialized ship can easily take down a much larger vessel. My faction had plans to take down a massive ship with one much smaller with specialized systems tuned to take down its shields, damage the jump drive before it could flee, and rip out the weapon computers so it couldn't fight back. And it would have worked, if the server owner hadn't shut down the server before it could happen.

    Weapons have to be cuboids. I believe that cannon >::::::::::::::< is visually recognizable as one and is aesthetically pleasing, and cannon > ::::...< is a very tiny weenie on a very big nutsack.

    Why cuboids? Because this is the only computationally easy shape to check against. Because it allows for easy and fast calculation of its dimensions, which are used below. Also, thanks to weapons being cuboids it's possible to mark the whole side of a weapon as its output, so now you can fire 2x2 cannonballs and giant rockets.
    And what exactly is your plan for what happens when shields go down and weapons rip into the system and change it from being a perfect little box?

    All systems have some sort of "best-shape". This "best shape" should provide mechanical benefits to the group, or it won't be used. Your ship is nice? Well mine is powerful. A single Brett guy on a server will either make other people leave or force them into same brickships as his own.
    Ah, yes, a very specific "best shape." That definitely helps creative builders.

    How to fix? Relatively easy.
    -= Intersystem interference =-.
    Every system decreases its functionality for every block of other systems in its bounding cuboid, which for this check is treated as increased for every several blocks of the system. This is computationally easy, cached operation that needs recalculation only on block destruction; the cache is held by the ship rather than by the block so it takes little memory. Block destroyed? Lookup which group it belonged too, lookup systems that were intersecting with said group, then re-evaluate their power. Seems quite possible even for large ships and populated servers.
    Sounds fucking obnoxious, and will also increase the lag of the game, because it renders every exposed surface even if you can't "see" it. You'll need to either have lots of empty, laggy space inside your ships, or stuff your ship with filler blocks.

    Reconnaisance and industrial espionage are relevant now.
    These are already relevant.

    Any offline system can be toggled on. Depending on the size and type of system, its activation time differs. Say, the larger the cannon - the longer it toggles on (up to several minutes for titans),
    Toggling systems on and off to save power? Sure, I can get behind that. Taking forever just to "boot up" my systems? That's fucking obnoxious and boring as hell. "Oh, shit, another titan! Quick, activate weapons!" *two titans proceed to spend 5 minutes doing fucking nothing while weapons charge.* Yeah, that sounds really fun and exciting.

    Ability to balance jump ships and cloak ships. Now i can make a ship with a very fast-charging jumpdrive, but due to enormous jumpdrive energy requirements i will have to ditch shields, weapons and basically everything.
    The game is literally already set up like this.

    All in all, your suggestions are either a) already in, just maybe not in a way you've realized, or b) not actually helpful to aesthetic builders in any way, even harming them. Your suggestion promotes people to basically just build their ships from a bunch of different systems, all in the same shape. Build with weird shapes? Guess you're fucked, then!

    EDIT-

    Since I now need to think about whether or not shields would be effective if they were placed here, or there.
    Already in the game. Already been in the game for a long time. A smart builder already puts shields up against their hull, since shields are effectively dead weight, useless systems, once shields are down. So, you primarily put them near the exterior so they can absorb most of the damage that WOULD have hit systems that are still important when shields are down- weapons, thrust, power, etc.

    There's nothing about this suggestion that could be config eddited, though.
    Is this a joke? You could definitely modify the blockconfig to support specific shapes for a lot of systems.
     
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    Blergh. I wish this thread had not be resurrected.

    "I want ships designed with my aesthetic sense to be optimal compared to currently optimal ships whose design I dislike."

    "I know, let's penalize entirely different classes of ship designs in an attempt to make how I design ships more optimal. By the way, Schine will have to redesign and rebalance a significant portion of the ship construction and combat meta-games to accomodate these ideas. Also, it will essentially ruin all previously-designed ships."

    "Combat is too flexible. Players need to be locked into a rigid course of action with no ability to adapt to changing situations. I will be unable to accept responsibility for my actions while piloting my new-more-optimal-ship unless I must spend minutes watching other players destroy my ship because I chose incorrectly. This is the only way I assuage my guilt for making effective specialized ships."

    "No part of my idea can survive in any form outside of the perfect infallibility of machine code. Social contracts won't work at all, they are worth less than the humans that make them. In fact, Schine is composed of human developers. I don't believe them capable of correctly implementing the perfect, unalterable rules system my idea requires - we need to replace them with robots. Robots which were constructed by cool machine intelligences which cannot be corrupted by impure human neuroses. I need SkyNet."

    There are some few good ideas in this thread, but I would still rather it had remained buried. I am afraid that Schine might try to tease the good ideas from the bad, and due to their fallible human nature pull a bad idea into the game by mistake. Beware, Oh Brave Developers, and remember that within this thread lies Destruction. Destruction of both Game and Humanity. Heed my declaration, Stalwart Coders, and hold fast that it not be optimized out:

    bApplicationIsSkyNet = false;

    Do Not Forget.
     
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