Some ideas on game mechanics and ship construction

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    We were talking about the ship HP system in chat and it got me thinking about how the game mechanics inform ship construction.

    Now, my knowledge of the game's mechanics ain't up-to-date, understand, so any of the things I'm saying could be tossed aside as "entirely missing the point" and I'd deserve it.

    So, right now, at the very least, the game's mechanics favor dealing massive damage to a small area. Take out the core, the ship is destroyed. The counter to this is ever-increasing pools of hp or layers of armor. The former scales far, far more efficiently than the latter, if only because you need to armor and shield your entire ship to protect it, while your opponent simply needs to have a sufficiently large gun to punch through a small fraction of it. Further, there is little reason for a ship to have any kind of interior. As long as a path to the ship's core exists, that's all that matters.

    Changing to an HP system helps, I think. But I'd like to offer an alternative or, perhaps, complimentary way of modifying the mechanics to favor a less geometric, hyper-optimized approach. This means giving each ship multiple failure points, rather than just the core. How could we do that, if we think that's actually a good idea, at least in principle? Well, maybe like this:

    We already have control blocks in the game. People are used to using them. We could expand on that a bit to influence how players deploy their weapons and how they build their ships considerably.

    Control blocks would be standardized a bit and could all follow the same basic rules:
    1) Systems need to be slaved to an appropriate control block in order to function.
    2) Control blocks don't disappear when they reach 0 HP. Instead, they can linger for a time, allowing and encouraging players (or crew mobs) to repair them with a special repair tool.
    3) Losing the control block effectively shuts down the system blocks tied to it.
    4) Knocking a ship's core down to 0 HP kills anyone occupying it.
    5) System blocks can be re-slaved to a different controller by someone using the build tools in the ship's core.
    6) The ship's core can be used as a universal controller for shields/power/energy production
    7) The ship's core can be knocked to 0 HP without automatically destroying the ship, allowing a window of opportunity for the crew to repair it.

    This gives folks the option to distribute their ship's weak points around its structure and gives them reason to employ internal corridors. It also helps group play a bit by letting folks take over for dead comrades or let folks play as a dedicated repair guy. It also allows existing designs to continue on without alteration, though they will retain their single point of failure. For a single person operating a ship losing their core is horrible, but not an automatic loss, especially if they are occupying a cockpit block or the like.

    A few alterations to some of the other systems could flesh it out considerably as well. Scanners might be required to locate an enemy ship's controller blocks. AI blocks could have a customizable targeting order and would require some sort of power-draining active scanner to aim at anything more specific than "at the ship, maybe". Active scanners could be countered by counter-measures systems that hide other controller blocks but show up as targets themselves instead.

    Just some thoughts.
     
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    Ithirahad

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    I love all of this. Except... Doesn't this ENCOURAGE having computers in the same place, rather than discourage it? If they're far from one another, it's a lot harder to get them all repaired in time to avoid them going kapoof. Not that this is a bad thing; IMO control computers should all be near one another for various reasons.
     

    MrFURB

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    A more in-depth out ship controller system... system thing may make organizing and maintaining ship systems during a fight a, well, a thing in the first place. I still doubt that the type of fights this seems to be pointed at (medium-large ships with a high offense/defense ratio and minimal interior space) would move at such a slow pace to allow controller repairs mid-combat though. It has some excellent uses in slower, more RP fights. Kinda reminds me of Faster Than Light.

    I think it lacks in a few areas though. The more protective layout for all your systems would be to have them near the core in a central control room of sorts. Perhaps if the scaling of defenses was set against the scaling of weapons evenly then something akin to this would make a difference for the better.
     
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    I do think some clarification is in order, then.

    The intent is for critical systems (like power, or engines) to be broken into discrete chunks with their own controllers.

    Centrally locating them in a space is one way of employing the system, but all it does is tell your opponent what small area of the ship they need to tear through to take the ship down. It doesn't net you much survivability vs. simply using the ship core for everything.

    Distributing power, shields, and engine controllers throughout the ship means that a ship might need to be taken down piecemeal and that it can still pose a significant threat, even with a blown-out core. It can still fire (unless you take time to pick of turrets). It can still run away (unless you take down its engines). It can still regenerate its defenses (unless you pick apart its shield controllers).

    That's the intent, anyway. Other nice bits could be bolted on, like having energy generators or weapons systems over a certain size explode if they lose their controller. Again, the idea is to have ships, especially larger ships, be not be subject to critical existence failure. They need to be taken apart by degrees and they rarely just explode 'cause one block went down.
     
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    Lecic

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    I love all of this. Except... Doesn't this ENCOURAGE having computers in the same place, rather than discourage it? If they're far from one another, it's a lot harder to get them all repaired in time to avoid them going kapoof. Not that this is a bad thing; IMO control computers should all be near one another for various reasons.
    Well, you can have all your computers right next to eachother and having them all get wiped out by a handful of shots, or you scatter them around so they take much longer to target and destroy.
     

    Blakpik

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    I like this but wouldn't people still just shoot at the core anyway, and ignore the computers? Or did I miss something? (I am very tired)
     

    Lecic

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    I like this but wouldn't people still just shoot at the core anyway, and ignore the computers? Or did I miss something? (I am very tired)
    The game is migrating to an HP system, where the core is no longer the be-all end-all of destroying a ship. Specifics aren't known yet, but we do know that.
     

    Blakpik

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    The game is migrating to an HP system, where the core is no longer the be-all end-all of destroying a ship. Specifics aren't known yet, but we do know that.
    I see ... I think. I am still confused. Merry Christmas by the way (I just looked at the clock and it is 1:42 AM).
     

    jayman38

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    I like this but wouldn't people still just shoot at the core anyway, and ignore the computers? Or did I miss something? (I am very tired)
    At this point in time, enemies will go straight for the core, but the dev team is looking into ways to change the way ships are defeated, so that players and AI won't just want to core-drill. The new method is normally referred to as the HP upgrade, but the upgrade will undoubtedly go deeper than just adding hit points to a ship.

    Aside from that, it will be an interesting skill-challenge for players to disable their opponents. Imagine demanding something valuable after taking down an enemy titan's jump drive, shield system, all weapon systems, and half their energy or thruster systems.
     

    Blakpik

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    At this point in time, enemies will go straight for the core, but the dev team is looking into ways to change the way ships are defeated, so that players and AI won't just want to core-drill. The new method is normally referred to as the HP upgrade, but the upgrade will undoubtedly go deeper than just adding hit points to a ship.

    Aside from that, it will be an interesting skill-challenge for players to disable their opponents. Imagine demanding something valuable after taking down an enemy titan's jump drive, shield system, all weapon systems, and half their energy or thruster systems.
    That does sound good. One could disable a ship without destroying it. They could then hail and make demands, send a team onto the ship or take the ship whole. I get it now. Thanks
    [DOUBLEPOST=1419432870,1419432447][/DOUBLEPOST]
    2) Control blocks don't disappear when they reach 0 HP. Instead, they can linger for a time, allowing and encouraging players (or crew
    Just one thing then. I think that the rule of Computers not being destroyed should only work so far. If a missile comes and blasts half your ship, I think it should totally destroy any computers in the section attacked. Or else you just get a big hole with a floating, broken computer.
     
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    I think that the rule of Computers not being destroyed should only work so far. If a missile comes and blasts half your ship, I think it should totally destroy any computers in the section attacked. Or else you just get a big hole with a floating, broken computer.
    I do think that sounds a bit silly myself, but it seems like it would be something that largely solves itself. If it's exposed and vulnerable, trying to repair it is extremely risky. And it might be kind of fun, too. Fortunately, you do have three options: You can ignore it, repair it, or re-slave the down power blocks to a different controller and risk a more critical failure down the line. It is, afterall, a game, and losing some realism for the sake of a more interesting or enjoyable play experience is usually worth it.

    Personally, I think that it would be fun if controllers had a threshold where letting them go critical will also cause attached system blocks to blow up. That would make things REAL interesting.
     

    Ithirahad

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    IMO, blocks in general shouldn't just disappear as easily, though... Systems, maybe, but not hull, or decoratives for that matter. It should take at least a missile to make big stupid holes in ships. Other things should disable systems, light plasma fires, and do other similar things, without just destroying tons of blocks which is annoying and kind of lame sometimes.
     

    jayman38

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    IMO, blocks in general shouldn't just disappear as easily, though... Systems, maybe, but not hull, or decoratives for that matter. It should take at least a missile to make big stupid holes in ships. Other things should disable systems, light plasma fires, and do other similar things, without just destroying tons of blocks which is annoying and kind of lame sometimes.
    On the other hand, assuming that the attacking player isn't a cheating admin who just spawns a massive combat ship from thin space, an attacking player who went through the trouble of putting together a ship with massive beam or cannon arrays rather deserves to see the victim's ship disintegrate under firepower. Part of the fun is the visceral sensation of seeing that ship get ripped apart. (On a personal note, as a builder-style player, my visceral reaction is one of sadness. On the other hand, since I play only singleplayer against pirates, my reaction is limited.)
     

    Ithirahad

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    On the other hand, assuming that the attacking player isn't a cheating admin who just spawns a massive combat ship from thin space, an attacking player who went through the trouble of putting together a ship with massive beam or cannon arrays rather deserves to see the victim's ship disintegrate under firepower. Part of the fun is the visceral sensation of seeing that ship get ripped apart. (On a personal note, as a builder-style player, my visceral reaction is one of sadness. On the other hand, since I play only singleplayer against pirates, my reaction is limited.)
    I like seeing ships get ripped apart. But it shouldn't happen because of cannons or even beams cutting a massive rift through ships, it should be because they hit (at least came close to hitting, or dented through the hull) and destabilized key systems, which then exploded and sent debris flying everywhere... Which shouldn't be an easy thing to do, but should be pretty awesome when it happens.
     
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    one thing they have to change is to be able to move ur core in build mode but keep the core removal as the last block to be able to be remove
     
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    Personally, I think someone who invests in a giant gun array should get the satisfaction of watching it punch a hole through some goliath vessel. I just think a big ship should be able to handle a few of those before finally exploding/going inert/whatevs.
     

    Ithirahad

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    Personally, I think someone who invests in a giant gun array should get the satisfaction of watching it punch a hole through some goliath vessel. I just think a big ship should be able to handle a few of those before finally exploding/going inert/whatevs.
    I agree, which is why I believe that capital-sized weapons should still be able to rip through armor... Smaller ones shouldn't do as much direct hull damage though but be able to efficiently... do... stuff of some kind. :P