- Joined
- Jun 11, 2016
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I have read all of the bigger complaints about the moderation. The striking goal for me was, when this forum thread : You've Messed Up. got opened, and got as of today 29 supporting ratings, versus 2 (wow) disagree ratings. (I disagreed with it.)
"Why can't you just let the people rant have their fun Jin?"
Answer: "I think you all should rant, and it's good that you say what you think. And if you have fun with it even better. I just think differently and want to say my criticism on the community and the mods too."
I think this forum is intended to be a place where we all can come together, and have fun. Coming home after a long day at school or work, I would like to discuss some ideas I had for building, pvp or development in a nice manner. What I think is not so good is, when we come here and get additional problems just by writting here what we think. I mean every complaint and opinion, even if you disagree, can be countered in a way, that the opponent doesn't feel that he now got additional problems with the dissagreer or a group of players that see it different. We can disagree in a nice way with each other. And we can have a good time here.
Plus: if we are not able to represent Starmade in a nice way, I think, that the game might become less popular. Here comes the argument, that many outsiders think, that Starmade has a salty community. You guys know what comes on salty roads? Toxicity and Bullying. We don't want too much negativity here, it can quickly lead to a bad reputation of our community and the game as a whole.
If a moderation team now is criticised for being too strict versus negativity or off-topic, we should reconsider, if that criticism is even justified. But let's get to some other things first.
Our common goal
When you write to each other here, even in the suggestions forums, please remember: This is our all freetime. I don't know how some people think freetime should be spended, but I think a majority of people want to have fun and be positive. Yeah sometimes you have to say where the nail is rusty. But: *insert some wise words yourself, I am pretty sure every reader here can think for himself what's suitable and what's not*
Now let's have a small look at another bigger picture:
Starmade's forum cumminity vs the actual gaming community
And I first want to say, that you guys, who are unsatisfied with the moderation, are the majority of active forum-users. When it comes to a game's community, there are the silent players, and the forum participants. But who is an active forum member and who is only playing the game doesn't corelate in it's number relation. Often enough the active forum members only represent that part of a game, that needs many interaction. For example if I build only alone, I don't have to interact that much, as when I try to fight in pvp. There are not many colaborative builds going on, but pvp is often more fun when we have like 3v3.
So when you think, that you guys have many backup of actual players, please be aware, that there is a silent majority that's not reading here, and that the relational numbers of how many pvpers and rpers that are active here, don't represent the actual number relations ingame. What I want to say: If I am online on Briere, LvD or Freaks, the majority of people is building. I don't know if that means that they are all pvpers or rpers deep down in their hearth, but I want you guys to reconsider, if you active forum users who are unsatisfied with the moderation of this forum, are actually representing the game's community.
Family Friendliness
Starmade is a game for children, under 18 years old. It's representing platform Starmadedock.net has thus to be friendly for young users, like 12 years onwards. You all might not be parents, but think of having a younger brother or sister that's 12 years old. Would you like her to get treated like this or that, when you see a discussion? If the answer is no, the content that got written is maybe even reportable. (like an ironic "ur gay" - Younger people can't understand that, and many parents don't want their children to read such stuff in a forum. Yeah there are different parents. Other parents might be totally okay with it.)
It is not debatable if starmadedock.net should be family friendly or not, as it is the main interaction, help, support and feedback platform for a game that's for users under 18 years. It's a Minecraft like game. There are so many kids from 6 years onwards playing Minecraft. And that's very likely the case for Starmade too, maybe not 6 years due to complicated mechanics, but very likely 10 or 12 years.
Moderator bias
Now onto the actual complaints. First and foremost was bias towards users.
The assumption, that moderators should not be biased is wrong. What's true is, that moderators allways (including alter and duke) strife to make unbiased moderation decissions. What's not true is, that a moderator can be unbiased.
Every person is biased. There are studies out there, that it's granted that even highly educated teachers (and they have to make a university in Germany to become one) are allways biased when they rate their students works. So if not even teachers are able to be not biased, how should a moderator, that certainly did not went through university to become a moderator, be free from bias? Being biased is something that lies in our own nature, and admitting that you are biased is the only way, to even handle it.
You have to know that being biased is part of you, as it is part of every other human, to actually work around it. And if you work around it with the knowledge of how human bias works, you can actually be very effective at not making biased moderation choices. But if you don't know how your own bias works, or just say "I am not biased.", it's very likely that you are making biased choices.
So that one of the mods admitted that he was biased, is imo something good, because he is honest about his work. He trusted you, whoevery posted this private conversation, and you just went public with it and used his try to communicate about issues to your own little agenda.
And another thing is: if you say something that pisses other people off often, and they click the report button then more, you might be a part of the very problem that the moderator thinks bad of you.
Warning Points and Overmoderation
This is another big complaint I've read. It's hard to tell, but I think the days where many salt and harsh talks where allowed, will be gone soon.
The main reason is, that Starmade will be developed further, and in less than one year I expect that there will be a lot more players frequenting this forum. Using very open words will then not work anymore. But that's only my guess. I don't think that this forum is going to be less friendly for young players in the future, quite contrary, it will enforce this stuff even stricter.
And at this point, please be aware: Around 30 guys agreed for Aesthetics demand that alter and duke should resign (see quote at the start). I think you should know, that new mods might not be so open for pm-conversation, and simply warn everyone who is just a little bit insulting. I tell you people, you don't want new mods. They will be less friendly than the current ones.
And I tell you that they will most certainly not open for long pm-discussions that want to disagree with their choices. I know many forums, where there is a rule that complaining about mod decissions too much can lead to warning points and ban-times.
Targetting a certain group of players
I think this is a good question and critique point. But does the feeling being targetted, and some conversation screenshots that seem to support this point, actually make it a truth? I have read the conversations, and reporting reasons that got used as evidence for the targetting issue. The mods seem only to make their work imo, and try to enforce their vision of the forum's future.
Now yes, as competetive player myself (I am playing competetive game and I know how we talk there, I am used to it all. =), I can understand why people want to loudly voice their opinions on how the game should get developed. Nothing is more frustrating, that wanting to actually play competetive, but then it doesn't work out for this or that reason. In Dota 2 for example, there have been sometimes Metas, that were so boring. Man I really wanted to bite my desk for how frustrated I was. "The same hero again and again for 10 games got picked. And it's all the developers fault. How could they not see it? Dimwits."
But even with all that anger, I allways knew, the developers need respectful feeback, and if other forum users disagree with me, I have to be considered in my talking. Because the development and suggestions forum is an important place where stuff can get changed for better or worse, I should be very carefull in what I say. It should be constructive, and not the first angry words that come to my mind. To "vent frustration" is only okay in very small doses.
Here I have the complaint at the moderators alterintel , that there are no good guidelines and extra pinned posts in the suggestions and general discussions forums, on how to talk to each other. Starmade has a competetive part, and thus the competetive related conversations need a good and easy to understand guideline. I can't expect as moderator, that a 12 year old knows on how to talk with others by only a small link to the forum rules in the bottom right corner of the page.
Now we also have small talk and not only development feedback about the game. And I think, it's also sad, that the competetive part of the community can't find a place to talk openly with each other. But maybe you guys can find an unofficial place to have your little banter? There have been many tries for an unofficial Starmade-discord. And I think some pvp-server-owners would also allow an unmoderated channel on their discord.
Freedom of Speech
First of, there is a difference in censoring opinions in general, and in not allowing insulting or harassing talks. As long the overal information of the opinion doesn't get deleted, and only very insulting parts get editted out, I would not say, that the actual information of the opinion got censored. Yes, the insults get deleted. But not the opinions, and facts (as long as written without insulating manner ).
Now here I want to ask you, dear reader, if I am allowed to give you a little advice?
If you don't like to hear it, just skip the next two paragraph:
How to be constructive in criticism or general discussions
I had the experience, that my opinions next to never got editted or deleted, when I used respectful words. When I tried to stay on topic with facts, and didn't target a certain group of players with harsh critique, but thought on how to say it in a nice way, I had never issues edits or deletions. In fact, as long as I tried to be constructive.
Being constructive depends, to make the explanation short, on four basic pillars (If needed I add some examples to it later on, but right now I am tired of writting): What happend exactly? (Time and maybe quote, or, actual problem that only relies on actions, without opinions or morale valuing) How did that impact me? (Here I can say in what way this interacts with me, what actually happens) How do I feel after that impact? (I still don't say that this was bad or voice an opinion) What can be done in the future, so I am happy? (Here I say exactly what I expect, and I list actual practical actions or material stuff, nothing that is theoretical)
Closure
Thanks for reading guys. Please don't think that I don't like you. I would not be here, if I didn't have fun reading and writting here. I am happy that we have an active community, and hope that we are getting more players in the future again. Right now we have difficult time, the game is lacking new content, and I would also like to have better things to focus on in Starmade, so I don't have time for community behavior related stuff.
First of: Why do I take it so serious?
"Why can't you just let the people rant have their fun Jin?"
Answer: "I think you all should rant, and it's good that you say what you think. And if you have fun with it even better. I just think differently and want to say my criticism on the community and the mods too."
I think this forum is intended to be a place where we all can come together, and have fun. Coming home after a long day at school or work, I would like to discuss some ideas I had for building, pvp or development in a nice manner. What I think is not so good is, when we come here and get additional problems just by writting here what we think. I mean every complaint and opinion, even if you disagree, can be countered in a way, that the opponent doesn't feel that he now got additional problems with the dissagreer or a group of players that see it different. We can disagree in a nice way with each other. And we can have a good time here.
Plus: if we are not able to represent Starmade in a nice way, I think, that the game might become less popular. Here comes the argument, that many outsiders think, that Starmade has a salty community. You guys know what comes on salty roads? Toxicity and Bullying. We don't want too much negativity here, it can quickly lead to a bad reputation of our community and the game as a whole.
If a moderation team now is criticised for being too strict versus negativity or off-topic, we should reconsider, if that criticism is even justified. But let's get to some other things first.
Our common goal
When you write to each other here, even in the suggestions forums, please remember: This is our all freetime. I don't know how some people think freetime should be spended, but I think a majority of people want to have fun and be positive. Yeah sometimes you have to say where the nail is rusty. But: *insert some wise words yourself, I am pretty sure every reader here can think for himself what's suitable and what's not*
Now let's have a small look at another bigger picture:
Starmade's forum cumminity vs the actual gaming community
And I first want to say, that you guys, who are unsatisfied with the moderation, are the majority of active forum-users. When it comes to a game's community, there are the silent players, and the forum participants. But who is an active forum member and who is only playing the game doesn't corelate in it's number relation. Often enough the active forum members only represent that part of a game, that needs many interaction. For example if I build only alone, I don't have to interact that much, as when I try to fight in pvp. There are not many colaborative builds going on, but pvp is often more fun when we have like 3v3.
So when you think, that you guys have many backup of actual players, please be aware, that there is a silent majority that's not reading here, and that the relational numbers of how many pvpers and rpers that are active here, don't represent the actual number relations ingame. What I want to say: If I am online on Briere, LvD or Freaks, the majority of people is building. I don't know if that means that they are all pvpers or rpers deep down in their hearth, but I want you guys to reconsider, if you active forum users who are unsatisfied with the moderation of this forum, are actually representing the game's community.
Family Friendliness
Starmade is a game for children, under 18 years old. It's representing platform Starmadedock.net has thus to be friendly for young users, like 12 years onwards. You all might not be parents, but think of having a younger brother or sister that's 12 years old. Would you like her to get treated like this or that, when you see a discussion? If the answer is no, the content that got written is maybe even reportable. (like an ironic "ur gay" - Younger people can't understand that, and many parents don't want their children to read such stuff in a forum. Yeah there are different parents. Other parents might be totally okay with it.)
It is not debatable if starmadedock.net should be family friendly or not, as it is the main interaction, help, support and feedback platform for a game that's for users under 18 years. It's a Minecraft like game. There are so many kids from 6 years onwards playing Minecraft. And that's very likely the case for Starmade too, maybe not 6 years due to complicated mechanics, but very likely 10 or 12 years.
Moderator bias
Now onto the actual complaints. First and foremost was bias towards users.
The assumption, that moderators should not be biased is wrong. What's true is, that moderators allways (including alter and duke) strife to make unbiased moderation decissions. What's not true is, that a moderator can be unbiased.
Every person is biased. There are studies out there, that it's granted that even highly educated teachers (and they have to make a university in Germany to become one) are allways biased when they rate their students works. So if not even teachers are able to be not biased, how should a moderator, that certainly did not went through university to become a moderator, be free from bias? Being biased is something that lies in our own nature, and admitting that you are biased is the only way, to even handle it.
You have to know that being biased is part of you, as it is part of every other human, to actually work around it. And if you work around it with the knowledge of how human bias works, you can actually be very effective at not making biased moderation choices. But if you don't know how your own bias works, or just say "I am not biased.", it's very likely that you are making biased choices.
So that one of the mods admitted that he was biased, is imo something good, because he is honest about his work. He trusted you, whoevery posted this private conversation, and you just went public with it and used his try to communicate about issues to your own little agenda.
And another thing is: if you say something that pisses other people off often, and they click the report button then more, you might be a part of the very problem that the moderator thinks bad of you.
Warning Points and Overmoderation
This is another big complaint I've read. It's hard to tell, but I think the days where many salt and harsh talks where allowed, will be gone soon.
The main reason is, that Starmade will be developed further, and in less than one year I expect that there will be a lot more players frequenting this forum. Using very open words will then not work anymore. But that's only my guess. I don't think that this forum is going to be less friendly for young players in the future, quite contrary, it will enforce this stuff even stricter.
And at this point, please be aware: Around 30 guys agreed for Aesthetics demand that alter and duke should resign (see quote at the start). I think you should know, that new mods might not be so open for pm-conversation, and simply warn everyone who is just a little bit insulting. I tell you people, you don't want new mods. They will be less friendly than the current ones.
And I tell you that they will most certainly not open for long pm-discussions that want to disagree with their choices. I know many forums, where there is a rule that complaining about mod decissions too much can lead to warning points and ban-times.Targetting a certain group of players
I think this is a good question and critique point. But does the feeling being targetted, and some conversation screenshots that seem to support this point, actually make it a truth? I have read the conversations, and reporting reasons that got used as evidence for the targetting issue. The mods seem only to make their work imo, and try to enforce their vision of the forum's future.
Now yes, as competetive player myself (I am playing competetive game and I know how we talk there, I am used to it all. =), I can understand why people want to loudly voice their opinions on how the game should get developed. Nothing is more frustrating, that wanting to actually play competetive, but then it doesn't work out for this or that reason. In Dota 2 for example, there have been sometimes Metas, that were so boring. Man I really wanted to bite my desk for how frustrated I was. "The same hero again and again for 10 games got picked. And it's all the developers fault. How could they not see it? Dimwits."
But even with all that anger, I allways knew, the developers need respectful feeback, and if other forum users disagree with me, I have to be considered in my talking. Because the development and suggestions forum is an important place where stuff can get changed for better or worse, I should be very carefull in what I say. It should be constructive, and not the first angry words that come to my mind. To "vent frustration" is only okay in very small doses.
Here I have the complaint at the moderators alterintel , that there are no good guidelines and extra pinned posts in the suggestions and general discussions forums, on how to talk to each other. Starmade has a competetive part, and thus the competetive related conversations need a good and easy to understand guideline. I can't expect as moderator, that a 12 year old knows on how to talk with others by only a small link to the forum rules in the bottom right corner of the page.
Now we also have small talk and not only development feedback about the game. And I think, it's also sad, that the competetive part of the community can't find a place to talk openly with each other. But maybe you guys can find an unofficial place to have your little banter? There have been many tries for an unofficial Starmade-discord. And I think some pvp-server-owners would also allow an unmoderated channel on their discord.
Freedom of Speech
First of, there is a difference in censoring opinions in general, and in not allowing insulting or harassing talks. As long the overal information of the opinion doesn't get deleted, and only very insulting parts get editted out, I would not say, that the actual information of the opinion got censored. Yes, the insults get deleted. But not the opinions, and facts (as long as written without insulating manner
).Now here I want to ask you, dear reader, if I am allowed to give you a little advice?
If you don't like to hear it, just skip the next two paragraph:
How to be constructive in criticism or general discussions
I had the experience, that my opinions next to never got editted or deleted, when I used respectful words. When I tried to stay on topic with facts, and didn't target a certain group of players with harsh critique, but thought on how to say it in a nice way, I had never issues edits or deletions. In fact, as long as I tried to be constructive.
Being constructive depends, to make the explanation short, on four basic pillars (If needed I add some examples to it later on, but right now I am tired of writting): What happend exactly? (Time and maybe quote, or, actual problem that only relies on actions, without opinions or morale valuing) How did that impact me? (Here I can say in what way this interacts with me, what actually happens) How do I feel after that impact? (I still don't say that this was bad or voice an opinion) What can be done in the future, so I am happy? (Here I say exactly what I expect, and I list actual practical actions or material stuff, nothing that is theoretical)
Closure
Thanks for reading guys. Please don't think that I don't like you. I would not be here, if I didn't have fun reading and writting here. I am happy that we have an active community, and hope that we are getting more players in the future again. Right now we have difficult time, the game is lacking new content, and I would also like to have better things to focus on in Starmade, so I don't have time for community behavior related stuff.
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