Shipyards on ships

[Drybreeze]

Ok so stay with me on this.
Shipyards are neat right... bugged but early days they'll get so much better and already are so much better than previous solutions.

But...
...what if...
...you could put shipyards ONTO ships?

"Why bother?", you ask.

Simple.
Combine it with an ability for a shipyard built entity to be collected by rail, and suddenly you have a factory that can mass produce entities.

"Uhuh", you say...

Right... so now imagine those entities are drone ships. Or torpedoes.
Suddenly your capital ship can now produce torpedo after torpedo, feeding it onto rails and pushing it up to a launch tube and flinging it at the enemy. Over and over. Huge armor smashing torpedoes of epic proportions. Space for an arsenal is no longer necessary... only cargo space (which let's face it is FAR less space consuming).

Hive ships with disposable drones that can be replenished when they're destroyed... all you need is a supply of materials and a ship-borne micro-shipyard or 10 and your fleet battles just became truly epic.

 

[Shaker]

No

 

[jstenholt]

Yes, this is a relatively common suggestion, and it's probably going to be in the game at some point. I imagine there will be some debuff for shipboard factories for balancing purposes.

 

[Extholious]

if this is added i think there should be a size limit for shipyards on ships simply because balance reasons

 

[taisong]

I do want a small shipyard to load my fighters with torpedoes. so, Yes.

 

[Nickizzy]

If shipyards had stupid high mass levels. Like, 10 mass per block, and 5 for each volume in the shipyard space. Remember shipyards in homeworld?

 

[Spartan4845]

I look at shipyards on ships as a thing that should happen, but with a couple limits that would keep them from becoming op.

(1) Limit the max size of construction.
I think that things like mines, torps, and drones is a must, but maybe allow up to small fighters/shuttles. No "My 3km mothership should be allowed to build corvettes/frigates 500m long."

(2) They should be slower than standard shipyards.
This way people can't spam mines/torps/ or drones. This would also make it so that people would still have space to store their whatevers. For example, you have a ship yard that can produce drones. A normal shipyard can build it in 30 secs... so the ship based yard can do it in 90 secs or more. This way if you loose 2-3 drones a minute in combat, you can still replace losses but not enough to turn the tide of battle.

(3) Possible massive power drain.
A Massive power drain would make using a shipyard in combat suicide. So while your main engagement ship won't use them to replace stuff unless out of combat, I guess you could build a specialty ship that stays out of the fight and rebuild stuff for a fleet.

(4) Possible limit total shipyard blocks as well as size limit
Example with crappy numbers. - A Fighter shipyard would take, lets say 500 shipyard blocks, so 500 is the max for this example. Well you could build one Fighter shipyard, or if a drone needs 250 you could build two of those. This could allow for multiple shipyards to build smaller things in large quantity. But to balance this you could make them less efficient and take more energy to run as well as the issue of running multiple yards at one time.

(5) Less efficient than a station
This one is easy, a station has better equipment, so it would cost more to build on a ship. Example - Shipyard takes 100 blocks to build a torp. So a ship based yard would have a penalty of lets say 5 or 10 percent. So a torp on a ship would take 105 or 110 blocks to build. Or something similar.
------
Idea for expansion of a shipyard on ships.

-Large Shipyards for use other than construction.
It'd be cool if we could have Corvette/Frigate sized shipyards on a large ship class that didn't allow construction but repair. It could add a new dimension to fleet battles. A smaller ship could dock in it a make repairs and use smaller shipyards on the larger ship or other support ships to replace turrets, drones, and torps. Of course this would drain so much energy that either (A) the larger ship would be exposed during repairs or (B) have nothing more that minor defenses and require additional support for protection. This would make deploying a "Repair Ship" a expensive endeavor and a massive blow to a fleet if something goes wrong.

 

[DrTarDIS]

all the arbitrary balance-nerfs towards shipyards,shops, and factories annoy me to begin with. Balance after introduction, silly people.

 

[Lone_Puppy]

I think it would be a great thing to have them, but I suspect the processing that the game would have to endure could be quite significant.
Personally, I would prefer no limits, because it makes no sense to limit functionality for a start. However, I do understand imposed limitations based on the limitations of the game and it's ability to process such activities. I wouldn't call it balance. I would just simply call it limits.

 

[Nickizzy]

(1) Limit the max size of construction.
I think that things like mines, torps, and drones is a must, but maybe allow up to small fighters/shuttles. No "My 3km mothership should be allowed to build corvettes/frigates 500m long."

Honestly, if mobility is sufficently reduced by having a shipyard then max size doesn't really matter, especially if

(2) They should be slower than standard shipyards.
This way people can't spam mines/torps/ or drones. This would also make it so that people would still have space to store their whatevers. For example, you have a ship yard that can produce drones. A normal shipyard can build it in 30 secs... so the ship based yard can do it in 90 secs or more. This way if you loose 2-3 drones a minute in combat, you can still replace losses but not enough to turn the tide of battle.

Which is a yes, by some x amount, probably large, so it's not a complete betterance than a station.

(3) Possible massive power drain.
A Massive power drain would make using a shipyard in combat suicide. So while your main engagement ship won't use them to replace stuff unless out of combat, I guess you could build a specialty ship that stays out of the fight and rebuild stuff for a fleet.

I don't know the exact number, but shipyards already use a good chunk of any given station's power as far as I remember. On top of thrusters, shields, hull weapons, turrets, effects, and JD ect, that could be enough by it's self.

(4) Possible limit total shipyard blocks as well as size limit
Example with crappy numbers. - A Fighter shipyard would take, lets say 500 shipyard blocks, so 500 is the max for this example. Well you could build one Fighter shipyard, or if a drone needs 250 you could build two of those. This could allow for multiple shipyards to build smaller things in large quantity. But to balance this you could make them less efficient and take more energy to run as well as the issue of running multiple yards at one time.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, is it a ratio idea, where 1SYB for every 50 blocks, or a flat limit? Besides, why can't we make our favorate Homeworld-Shipyards with horrible everything. The power usage would be insane anyway, especially with volumaric increases in mass.

(5) Less efficient than a station
This one is easy, a station has better equipment, so it would cost more to build on a ship. Example - Shipyard takes 100 blocks to build a torp. So a ship based yard would have a penalty of lets say 5 or 10 percent. So a torp on a ship would take 105 or 110 blocks to build. Or something similar.

So a chance that any given block in a design would be needed twice instead of once? Eh. It makes shipyards real resources wasters, and not real constructors. Speed, power, and mass ineffecencies are fine, cost ineffecencies are bad.

BTW, the mass shipyards take up references are to the idea that every shipyard block weighs 10, and every shipyard space weighs 5, so the 500 Shipyard space figher constructed would weigh
5*10*10=500*5=2.5k open space penalty
2*(10+5+5)=40+1 computer+1 anchor=42*10=420 basic mass
2.92k mass shipyard, plus the cargo space and mass, plus the thrusters to pull that, plus the power to power the shipyard and thrusters...

The 500m long frigates mentioned earlier would take
500*100*100=5million(!)*5=25million space penalty
10(12?)*(100+100+100)=3k*10=30k base mass
>25 million mass shipyard, plus cargo space, plus thrusters *pukes*, plus power...

Hm, maybe to big of a mass penalty.
2.5 and 5 (1/2):
12.5million space penalty, 15k base mass
1 and 20:
5million space penalty, 60k base mass.

Exponential space formulas are working against me!

Spoiler

By dimension:
5 and 10:
100+100+500=700*5=3.5k mass penalty,30k base mass... hm

What's the best system?

Idea for expansion of a shipyard on ships.

-Large Shipyards for use other than construction.
It'd be cool if we could have Corvette/Frigate sized shipyards on a large ship class that didn't allow construction but repair. It could add a new dimension to fleet battles. A smaller ship could dock in it a make repairs and use smaller shipyards on the larger ship or other support ships to replace turrets, drones, and torps. Of course this would drain so much energy that either (A) the larger ship would be exposed during repairs or (B) have nothing more that minor defenses and require additional support for protection. This would make deploying a "Repair Ship" a expensive endeavor and a massive blow to a fleet if something goes wrong.

Aye. Actual repair and not disassemble then rebuild would be really nice.

 

[Drybreeze]

All excellent points.

Think of it less as a "shipyard on ships" and more as an ability to produce smaller entities on the fly. Realistically there is no reason why a large entity that is mobile could not produce smaller entities in exactly the same way that a station could.... just one has engines and the other is stationary. I think that shipyards should consume huge amounts of power on stations, too, not just ship entities... it's a hugely complicated and energy hungry task producing a large ship in seconds... regardless of the fictional science used to justify it. e=mc2 Producing that much matter from thin air needs a LOT of energy to do it.

 

[Calhoun]

I'm sorry, but according to the 3 month rotation, this thread isn't supposed to be re-made for another week.

Also, it's typically a good idea to look here before posting a suggestion.

 

[Nickizzy]

So where do we talk about it? Chat?

 

[Edymnion]

Wasn't this one of the expected features of Capital Ships?

 

[kurosawa]

why, because options and details are what make a game great.

Any size of ship should be allowed to be build, but ships over a certain size would require you to ancore for X hours

 

[Drybreeze]

why, because options and details are what make a game great.

Any size of ship should be allowed to be build, but ships over a certain size would require you to ancore for X hours

Ooo I like that concept. So you could use it to generator torpedoes and drones still but it forces you to basically become a station for a period of time. Interesting.

 

[Zero_Sen]

you mean you want to suggest a feature they promised us some 2-3 years ago in a Dev Q&A, along with Factories and other currently station-only items, at the cost of a straight percentage penalty to Mobility of the Ship in question....

Frankly, I like the idea, I love how they originally proposed it... But frankly, Shipyards on Ship-borne Entities can get in line behind LUA Support and upgrading the rudimentary and, well, bluntly, outdated artificial "intelligence" used by current NPCs, both are things were were promised by Schema himself, over 3 years ago

 

[Drybreeze]

I'm hearing "yes"...

 

[Nickizzy]

Me too, now lets figure out the debuff. I want

Honestly, if mobility is sufficently reduced by having a shipyard then max size doesn't really matter, especially if

Which is a yes, by some x amount, probably large, so it's not a complete betterance than a station.

I don't know the exact number, but shipyards already use a good chunk of any given station's power as far as I remember. On top of thrusters, shields, hull weapons, turrets, effects, and JD ect, that could be enough by it's self.

I'm not sure what you mean by this, is it a ratio idea, where 1SYB for every 50 blocks, or a flat limit? Besides, why can't we make our favorate Homeworld-Shipyards with horrible everything. The power usage would be insane anyway, especially with volumaric increases in mass.

So a chance that any given block in a design would be needed twice instead of once? Eh. It makes shipyards real resources wasters, and not real constructors. Speed, power, and mass ineffecencies are fine, cost ineffecencies are bad.

BTW, the mass shipyards take up references are to the idea that every shipyard block weighs 10, and every shipyard space weighs 5, so the 500 Shipyard space figher constructed would weigh
5*10*10=500*5=2.5k open space penalty
2*(10+5+5)=40+1 computer+1 anchor=42*10=420 basic mass
2.92k mass shipyard, plus the cargo space and mass, plus the thrusters to pull that, plus the power to power the shipyard and thrusters...

The 500m long frigates mentioned earlier would take
500*100*100=5million(!)*5=25million space penalty
10(12?)*(100+100+100)=3k*10=30k base mass
>25 million mass shipyard, plus cargo space, plus thrusters *pukes*, plus power...

Hm, maybe to big of a mass penalty.
2.5 and 5 (1/2):
12.5million space penalty, 15k base mass
1 and 20:
5million space penalty, 60k base mass.

Exponential space formulas are working against me!

Spoiler

By dimension:
5 and 10:
100+100+500=700*5=3.5k mass penalty,30k base mass... hm

What's the best system?


Aye. Actual repair and not disassemble then rebuild would be really nice.

Shameless self advertizing. Someone clarify muy ramblings!

 

[JumpSuit]

Yes.