Ship Class and Pirate Wave Difficulty

[whooplaah]

Though there is a difficulty setting for the AI's aim, there doesn't seem to be a way of limiting how many of a single ship spawn in a wave. It may be 4 one-man fighters (an easy encounter), but it may be 4 star destroyers (completely impossible). I propose a way of classifying blueprints so that they have a 'Threat Level (TL)', then using that difficulty to limit pirate waves. Pirate wave difficulty will scale to match the threat level of the ship being piloted; so fewer weapons make for fewer encounters while more weapons mean bigger enemy waves.

Block Categories:
Industrial:
Power generators, battery tanks, factory blocks, and docking ports.

Auxiliary:
Salvage computers and push, pull, power supply, and power drain weapons.

Defensive:
Shield blocks and hardened hulls.

Offensive:
Cannons, damage beams, missiles, explosives, and turret docks.

Mundane:
All other block types.


Sizes and Criteria:
The more blocks used on a ship the greater the difficulty in destroying them (usually).

Class 1: between 1 and 500 blocks.
Class 2: between 501 and 2,000 blocks.
Class 3: between 2,001 and 4,500 blocks.
Class 4: between 4,501 and 8,000 blocks.
Class 5: between 8,001 and 12,500 blocks.
Class X: between 1+(x-1)*(x-1)*500 and (x*x*500) blocks.

Ship/Station Classes and Criteria:
Now we can classify the ship based upon the ratio of the 5 categories of blocks used to build it. We ignore all of the mundane blocks, and focus on the Utility Weight, which is (Total # of Block) - (Mundane Blocks). So for reference, a Balanced Ship would have a utility weight of 25% Offensive, 25% Defensive, 25% Auxiliary, 25% Industrial.

Civilian/Recreation: TL-1
0% Offensive
0% Auxiliary
Any % Defensive
Any % Industrial
Example: a mundane transport vehicle

Freighter: TL-1
0% Offensive
<25% Auxiliary
Any % Defensive
Any % Industrial
Example: an asteroid miner or vehicle ferry

Auxiliary/Utility: TL-2
<25% Offensive
>25% Auxiliary
<25% Defensive
<25% Industrial
Example: a repair drone or power relay turret

Merchant: TL-3
<25% Offensive
<25% Auxiliary
>25% Defensive
<50% Industrial
Example: a transport freighter with a few defense turrets

Fighter: TL-4
>25% Offensive
<10% Auxiliary
Any % Defensive
Any % Industrial
Example: most starting vessels, or the common Isanth

Battleship: TL-5
>30% Offensive
<10% Auxiliary
>30% Defensive
Any % Industrial
Example: most flagships, or a well defended pirate fortress


The Threat Level Calculation:
TL = Size Class * (Ship Class * Ship Class) + (# of weapon modules / # of weapon computers) + (# of modules marked as outputs / # of weapon computers)

Bigger ships are harder, but their utility balance is the biggest factor. Then take into account roughly how much damage per second they'll be able to deal.

The Wave Spawn Calculation:
First, establish the total TL of the Target(s) being assaulted.
Second, determine difficulty of the wave (i.e., a number between -10 and 10)
Third, (Wave Difficulty) + (Total Target(s) Threat Level) = Total Wave Threat Level (TWTL)
Fourth, spawn a ship whose TL is less than the TWTL.
Fifth, if any TWTL remains spawn another ship whose TL is less than the remaining TWTL.
Repeat until all TWTL is used, or no blueprint matches the criteria.

---
Ship classes can then be displayed in the HUD when locked on. I.e. (Isanth-I: Class 1 Fighter). This will help players prioritize targets, or judge the relative difficulty of an enemy.

 

[jayman38]

I think you're on to something, and I think it would be great to classify ships based on the level of each category, to get a better description of the ship's purpose. The problem with that is there is currently no way to track down the number of blocks per category. So, say you have a ship with Ind Level 3, Aux L1, Def L3, Off L4, Mun L1, you know you are up against roughly a frigate class with about 12k blocks. On the other hand, if you see a ship with Ind L4, Aux L4, Def L3, Off L2, Mun L4, you are probably dealing with a RP civilian luxury liner or civilian salvage ship. It would be neat if the building system automatically tracked these levels, providing your ship a default Class prefix that looked something like "I3A1D3O4M1".

And spawning waves with a certain threat level split up among multiple ships, depending on their individual threat level: Love it. It would allow us so much more variety in Pirate ship encounters involving larger vessels without becoming overwhelming.

 

[FunnyBunny14]

I don't like the more weapons more pirates idea. Instead it should be more credits and more blocks on your ship attract more piates. More weapons should only mean less smaller pirates and more bigger pirates.

 

[NeonSturm]

I like the concept, but I think the formulas need adjustment.

Only pacifist ships should have 0% weapons. Civilians should have a few %.

I am not a fan of putting power into industrial either. Power should be vital - like thrusters.
Thrusters should count to defensive and be a multiplier *(1+x) for offensive weight, but not by amount, but by % of max server speed /X
weight / (w+w+w+w+w) = %

 

[whooplaah]

The reason I place Power under Industrial is the same reason I place Hardened Hull in Defense. It is vital for a ship to function, but only to a certain level. If a ship or station is 40% power blocks, odds are it's working as a factory or power supply unit. My ships are generally no more than 30% power, and even those have more than they ever use.

I did forget to classify thrusters, thank you for pointing that out. I agree that maneuverability should be in the Defense category, but am not quite following your formula as it applies to weapons. Since Thrust is already calculated as the ratio of Thrusters to Mass, perhaps that is the number more relavent to the formula. After all, it also takes into account total maneuverability. Or, because it is both Offense (aiming) and defense (dodging) it should be classified as Auxiliary?

Also, you are right that civillians should have basic defense and offense. Perhaps:
Civillian: TL-0
<5% Offensive
<5% Auxiliary
Any % Defensive
Any % Industrial
Example: a mundane transport vehicle

In fact, we should probably replace all the 0% with <5%. Except for the Pacifist class.

Another benefit I've thought of relating to classifying ships is this: if you approach a shop in deep space flying a Warship, would that act differently than if you were flying a Recreation class vehicle? If there are ever an AI-Factions that control sectors, perhaps they will have rules on what types of ships are allowed near certain settlements, at least until you improve your relationship with them.

 

[NeonSturm]

I think big shops (if big and small exist) should have mine-fields around them to block bigger ships, but paths for smaller ships and cargo shuttles.
Small shops should take revenge by changing your relation properties from friendly to fearsome (which would deny you the free passage through high-sec / militarized systems)

This mine-field needs some indication and with our current number of shops it would be a major annoyance, only allowing big ships to travel in void sectors? ...

 

[OdraNoel]

I like this idea alot. but one thing that i hate in ANY game (im lookin at you elders scrolls/fallout) is any sort of level scaling. so making a ship with bigger guns = bigger pirates = level scaling = FAILED IMMERSION.

I think the Idea of threat levels as you described it is absolutely perfect! the only thing i would change would be the same thing that i would have sold my soul at the time to change from morrowind/oblivion/skyrim (THEY ALWAYS DO THE SAME! >.< ) and thats to have random level encounters.

so when a pirate station generates it will be assigned a threat level automatically regardless of your current status/power. So when you find a base you will have to determine if you can take them on or not in your current state. and with that it would be a perfect opportunity to add some sort of sensor system for ships. so you could say scan a sector from afar, see if there are pirate bases, and get a general idea of its threat level. (maybe it just give you a range of threat levels as bit of error margine, like this base is between lvl 3 - 5) this would make exploring much more intresting in MHO.

 

[NeonSturm]

Just please not around spawn or home bases @OdraNoel

 

[jayman38]

Spoiler: Off-Topic: Morrowind lacks Level Scaling

I like this idea alot. but one thing that i hate in ANY game (im lookin at you elders scrolls/fallout) is any sort of level scaling. so making a ship with bigger guns = bigger pirates = level scaling = FAILED IMMERSION.

I think the Idea of threat levels as you described it is absolutely perfect! the only thing i would change would be the same thing that i would have sold my soul at the time to change from morrowind/oblivion/skyrim (THEY ALWAYS DO THE SAME! >.< ) and thats to have random level encounters.

Look at Morrowind again. (Preferably with all the pretty visual mods) That game does not have leveled encounters. If you stray too far off the beaten path as an early-game character, the game WILL spank you! On the other hand, Morrowind is easy to meta-game with min/maxing and intelligence buffing potions, so you can blow up the gameplay in other ways. Once you understand all the possible tricks, Morrowind requires a certain meta-gaming discipline to maintain fun. Meta-gaming discipline is why I don't like to spawn in the blocks I need in StarMade with admin commands. Must... earn... blocks... the hard way.... Must not... break discipline....

 

[Emporer88]

currently there is a map. forgot what button but there is a huge 3D space wide map.

I like this idea alot. but one thing that i hate in ANY game (im lookin at you elders scrolls/fallout) is any sort of level scaling. so making a ship with bigger guns = bigger pirates = level scaling = FAILED IMMERSION.

I think the Idea of threat levels as you described it is absolutely perfect! the only thing i would change would be the same thing that i would have sold my soul at the time to change from morrowind/oblivion/skyrim (THEY ALWAYS DO THE SAME! >.< ) and thats to have random level encounters.

so when a pirate station generates it will be assigned a threat level automatically regardless of your current status/power. So when you find a base you will have to determine if you can take them on or not in your current state. and with that it would be a perfect opportunity to add some sort of sensor system for ships. so you could say scan a sector from afar, see if there are pirate bases, and get a general idea of its threat level. (maybe it just give you a range of threat levels as bit of error margine, like this base is between lvl 3 - 5) this would make exploring much more intresting in MHO.

 

[OdraNoel]

currently there is a map. forgot what button but there is a huge 3D space wide map.

yes, the map is brought up by pressing P and then Lshift. but right now its so simple and basic that its practically useless. im sure its guna be upgraded hand in hand with the new FTL system and universe restructuring. as right now there isnt much need for a map, and thats why it hasnt be fleshed out yet. but it will!

 

[mrsinister]

I came across Winchell Chung's Classification diagram and it's pretty nice.

Factors:

And their Classification according to the Factors Diagram:

I am in the middle of making a Starmade Ship Chart based off of these pictures and hope to include mass as well, and some other classifications. Also, it's a shame the we can't limit top speed in conjunction with the thruster blocks vs mass.. IE: if thrust is above the mass of the ship then it can go 100% and degrade from there.

My ship Classification system

Spoiler: Sinistar Ship Classification System

 

[Nauvran]

I came across Winchell Chung's Classification diagram it's pretty nice.

Factors:

And their Classification according to Factors Diagram:

I am in the middle of making a Starmade Chart based off of these pictures and hope to include mass as well. Also, it's a shame the we can't limit top speed in conjunction with the thruster blocks vs mass.. IE: if thrust is above the mass of the ship then it can go 100% and degrade from there.

I suppose you are making it in 3D then, since you would need one more side.

also could you try to add a point system like the on I described in "add-on to planned faction system"?
If you can then it would be great.

Another thing, thrusters, somewhere on the site I wrote something about ships over a certain mass should accelerate slower than the others, so the more mass over a specific number the slower it will accelerate, the amount of thrusters will still contribute to add acceleration but you would need a lot more of them for bigger ships.

 

[mrsinister]

I suppose you are making it in 3D then, since you would need one more side.

also could you try to add a point system like the on I described in "add-on to planned faction system"?
If you can then it would be great.

Another thing, thrusters, somewhere on the site I wrote something about ships over a certain mass should accelerate slower than the others, so the more mass over a specific number the slower it will accelerate, the amount of thrusters will still contribute to add acceleration but you would need a lot more of them for bigger ships.

Yeah, I will take a look at the link and try to implement it. I currently have 27 classifications and I still need to add some more civilian classes. If you have any suggestions as to classifications I may not have, military / civilian or otherwise, feel free to let me know.

EDIT: I took a look at the page. I like it a lot.

 

[NeonSturm]

Yeah, I will take a look at the link and try to implement it. I currently have 27 classifications and I still need to add some more civilian classes. If you have any suggestions as to classifications I may not have, military / civilian or otherwise, feel free to let me know.

EDIT: I took a look at the page. I like it a lot.

VIP shuttle, Slave/Captured-Transports, Mass Transportation (evacuation or civilian like current 150 person air planes)

I came across Winchell Chung's Classification diagram and it's pretty nice.

Factors:

And their Classification according to the Factors Diagram:

I am in the middle of making a Starmade Ship Chart based off of these pictures and hope to include mass as well, and some other classifications. Also, it's a shame the we can't limit top speed in conjunction with the thruster blocks vs mass.. IE: if thrust is above the mass of the ship then it can go 100% and degrade from there.

I like it, but do Interceptors not need to be fast? and destroyers more weapons against orbital fortress?

You don't need 3D for 4 states. You can make 5 triangles with different sizes - each representing a layer.

With 100 mass it is a torpedo boat, with 100000 a destroyer? But how will a 100-mass /Battleship/ be called?

 

[mrsinister]

VIP shuttle, Slave/Captured-Transports, Mass Transportation (evacuation or civilian like current 150 person air planes)



I like it, but do Interceptors not need to be fast? and destroyers more weapons against orbital fortress?

You don't need 3D for 4 states. You can make 5 triangles with different sizes - each representing a layer.

With 100 mass it is a torpedo boat, with 100000 a destroyer? But how will a 100-mass /Battleship/ be called?

Thank you for the suggestions and it may not include mass, I was just thinking I might incorporate it. And a 100 mass battleship would be fine, it all depends on armament ,defense ,propulsion and if it falls into the battleship Class then it's a battleship. Remember though, even in real world it doesnt matter the mass, but on what its weapons ,defense ,propulsion are. As some of the research I have done, shows you, you can have a battleship no matter the size it all hinders on those principals I mentioned. About the Interceptor, the white line goes to 50 for speed (quite a range so far). so it is average / mid level on how fast it goes.

 

[mrsinister]

Well, Here is where I am at so far on the Classifications...I started to put the Weapons and Armor listings on the bottom ones working my way up. I just need to know, if others like what I have so far, and are there any suggestions/critiques, etc.

Spoiler: Sinistar Industries Ship Classifications System

update: the spoiler contains my ship classification system

 

[NeonSturm]

I think mass is relative.

 

[mrsinister]

I think mass is relative.

In some instances, displacement mass was a factor for building/classing a ship, other instances it doesnt matter as long as weapon,defense,speed matched whatever category you were going for. I listed mass in there as a base for some other things I am doing. Also, look at the Dropship in the list.... that has a wide mass range and I can see the max of it getting raised even more. So, you just cant go by mass alone. <--not saying you are, I am just stating the obvious, some people like to think you can but no, you really can't.

 

[Crimson-Artist]

I actually had this idea in my head recently

My solution was just simply assign factions ship folders in the star made folder and in each folder there would be 3 sub-folders named in tiers. each successive tier will have ships spawn more rarely then the last. I envisioned it working like this

Normal Directory(Tier 1)= Normal Spawn Rate- the game will spawn these all the time like they do now. A random amount will spawn per pirate raids
Tier 2= Uncommon Spawns- No more than 2-3 at a time and will often spawn along with groups of Tier 1 ships
Tier 3= Rare spawns- The game only Spawns these once in a great while and in groups of no more than 1-2. pirate raids will have 1 of these spawn
Tier 4= Boss spawns. The game keeps track of these and only spawns 1 at a time. At any given time there can't be more than 1 of them present in the universe. When one is destroyed the game will wait until it spawns another somewhere in the universe