Shielding

[Mariux]

Pfffft what is this silliness

Linear growth leads to literally the exact same endgame as uncapped/exponential growth; bigger is ALWAYS better



Because linear scaling = bigger is ALWAYS better and that's fucking awful

No. If my ship is twice bigger (in mass), it's around twice more expensive and therefore twice better, 'nuff said. I think that people overthink this a little.

 

[Comr4de]

No. If my ship is twice bigger (in mass), it's around twice more expensive and therefore twice better, 'nuff said. I think that people overthink this a little.

This is exactly what leads to PvP consisting of only titans. Larger ships give more flexibility with design, yes, but they shouldn't be ABSOLUTELY INVINCIBLE to every other ship smaller than it. I'm not saying that fighters should be able to dunk capital ships but capitals shouldn't be the end-all of combat.

edit: furthermore, just because your ship is bigger/more expensive doesn't mean it should automatically be "better". outcome of combat should be reliant on player skill just as much as it should ship design.

example: My '03 Ford F150 can carry more furniture than your '14 Camaro. Does that mean it's better? No.

example 2: The IJN Yamato was the largest, most powerful Battleship to ever sail the seas. Every time she saw combat she was beaten back by TBM Avenger fighter bombers of the US Navy. She was eventually sunk by these type of bombers in 1945, during Operation Ten-Go. Was the Yamato more expensive than the TBM Avenger, or even the carriers that launched them? Which one was more effective in combat? (to clarify, the Yamato had a greater displacement/mass than any US Carrier of the time)

 

[Krazykat]

why shouldn't capitals be the end all of combat in one v one scenarios? The biggest ship in a large battle also presents the largest target and will probably receive the brute firepower of most of the opponents weapons. I think large ships should be able to destroy absolutely anything significantly smaller than them in 1v1 combat, but in fleet battles I want to see focused fire be able to take a behemoth down.

 

[Comr4de]

why shouldn't capitals be the end all of combat in one v one scenarios? The biggest ship in a large battle also presents the largest target and will probably receive the brute firepower of most of the opponents weapons. I think large ships should be able to destroy absolutely anything significantly smaller than them in 1v1 combat, but in fleet battles I want to see focused fire be able to take a behemoth down.

Because any end-all option in a game will lead to players utilizing that end-all option exclusively. It's a little game design theory called Strategic Dominance.

 

[Lecic]

why shouldn't capitals be the end all of combat in one v one scenarios? The biggest ship in a large battle also presents the largest target and will probably receive the brute firepower of most of the opponents weapons. I think large ships should be able to destroy absolutely anything significantly smaller than them in 1v1 combat, but in fleet battles I want to see focused fire be able to take a behemoth down.

The large also has a much larger surface area to mount turrets to, so they spit out much more firepower. In a battle between large ships, dodging is something that will happen very rarely. They're just too big to miss at combat ranges.

 

[Comr4de]

If we really wanted to fix shield scaling, we'd have the shield capacitor:ship mass ratio actually mean something.


Ex. My 50 Mass fighter has 100 shield capacitors. this means that fully 1/5 of the ship is shields. I will get much better shield coverage with this 50 mass fighter than I would with a 100 mass corvette with 150 shield capacitors.

Yes I'm already working on math for this and once I have it done I'll post it.

 

[Krazykat]

Because any end-all option in a game will lead to players utilizing that end-all option exclusively. It's a little game design theory called Strategic Dominance.

No sh*t Sherlock people will make big ships to fight big ships, what I'm saying is that it's still possible to take down a big ship with a force of smaller ships (especially with new effects and weapon types to add a focus/role to the weapons in play). That ability shouldn't be discounted from the discussion.

 

[Hanspeter Schnitzel]

What they are saying is that a smaller (not tiny) spaceship should be able to take down a bigger spaceship, even 1 vs 1, as long as the smaller spaceship utilizes better tactics and just uses their available weapons and systems better. Just like a smaller ship can beat a bigger one that way.

 

[Comr4de]

No sh*t Sherlock people will make big ships to fight big ships, what I'm saying is that it's still possible to take down a big ship with a force of smaller ships (especially with new effects and weapon types to add a focus/role to the weapons in play). That ability shouldn't be discounted from the discussion.

MY POINT IS THAT THOSE SHIPS WONT EVEN EXIST SINCE IT WOULD BE MORE EFFICIENT TO USE AN UBERKRUIZER

What they are saying is that a smaller (not tiny) spaceship should be able to take down a bigger spaceship, even 1 vs 1, as long as the smaller spaceship utilizes better tactics and just uses their available weapons and systems better. Just like a smaller ship can beat a bigger one that way.

this nigga gets it

 

[starhaiden]

it will be harder to get titans now with the new crafting system coming out

 

[Mariux]

This is exactly what leads to PvP consisting of only titans. Larger ships give more flexibility with design, yes, but they shouldn't be ABSOLUTELY INVINCIBLE to every other ship smaller than it. I'm not saying that fighters should be able to dunk capital ships but capitals shouldn't be the end-all of combat.

edit: furthermore, just because your ship is bigger/more expensive doesn't mean it should automatically be "better". outcome of combat should be reliant on player skill just as much as it should ship design.

example: My '03 Ford F150 can carry more furniture than your '14 Camaro. Does that mean it's better? No.

example 2: The IJN Yamato was the largest, most powerful Battleship to ever sail the seas. Every time she saw combat she was beaten back by TBM Avenger fighter bombers of the US Navy. She was eventually sunk by these type of bombers in 1945, during Operation Ten-Go. Was the Yamato more expensive than the TBM Avenger, or even the carriers that launched them? Which one was more effective in combat? (to clarify, the Yamato had a greater displacement/mass than any US Carrier of the time)

I think that the real problem in big shipsbis not their power, but how easy it is to get them.

EDIT I'm gonna get so much hate in this thread...

 

[Comr4de]

I think that the real problem in big shipsbis not their power, but how easy it is to get them.

EDIT I'm gonna get so much hate in this thread...

I'm inclined to agree, but even then this balance is still necessary in the long run

 

[Krazykat]

the price of large ships is not an issue as of now, this game is in alpha and the engine needs to be run to its limit, so we get big ships to make servers go boom and schema can figure out how to make it not go boom.

 

[Planr]

I have been on a cruise the past 5 days so I have not gotten a chance to check this thread until now. Still on the cruise but I got an internet package.

the price of large ships is not an issue as of now, this game is in alpha and the engine needs to be run to its limit, so we get big ships to make servers go boom and schema can figure out how to make it not go boom.

You do not need to utilize public game servers to fix these kinds of bugs like this. Any such issues were things that were also eventually reproducible on private dev servers using admin commands to spawn in plenty of those big ships. You can just as easily "run the game to its limit" that way.
Also, what? The price of large ships right now isn't an issue? That is ridiculous. They are so easy to acquire it's not even funny. Combat is such a mess still and this is one of the reasons why. The ease of buying titans has produced a multitude of problems.

 

[Krazykat]

I have been on a cruise the past 5 days so I have not gotten a chance to check this thread until now. Still on the cruise but I got an internet package.


You do not need to utilize public game servers to fix these kinds of bugs like this. Any such issues were things that were also eventually reproducible on private dev servers using admin commands to spawn in plenty of those big ships.
Also, what? The price of large ships right now isn't an issue? That is ridiculous. They are so easy to acquire it's not even funny. Combat is such a mess still and this is one of the reasons why.

All the costs are configurable you know, most RP servers I've played on have dramatically changed the shop prices, pirate drop rates, etc.

if it's a real problem for you take an hour or two and go through the config for yourself.

 

[Planr]

All the costs are configurable you know, most RP servers I've played on have dramatically changed the shop prices, pirate drop rates, etc.

if it's a real problem for you take an hour or two and go through the config for yourself.

Irrelevant. The default values need to be changed. Changing block costs is not enough anyway. Buying with blocks doesn't cut it ATM either because the ship has to have a limited variety of blocks that fit in your inventory. You could still have a large Titan that way but it would be rather bland.

While I hate giganticism, i want people to still have cool big ships if they can get them fairly.

 

[Krazykat]

I agree, but this is not something to be worried about in alpha imo

 

[Planr]

I agree, but this is not something to be worried about in alpha imo

That's like saying that a tear in the space shuttles' heat shielding armor should not be something to worry about until the shuttle is 10 seconds to liftoff. This is a part of what alpha is for. It's about fixing these kinds of serious issues so you can actually get to a stable beta.

 

[Krazykat]

[sorry for getting so offtopic]

the credits are not a serious issue, especially when even a player can fix it for themselves.

 

[Lecic]

[sorry for getting so offtopic]

the credits are not a serious issue, especially when even a player can fix it for themselves.

No. The default values are very important, because you can bet that the majority of servers are going to use them, because it's easier and a universal set up their players will be able to rely on.